Why is Homosexuality Wrong?

[FSTDT]

I know, I know, yet another homosexuality thread. But, I wanted to start one of my own, because all the other ones I read became derailed withing the first 2 pages. Hopefully, this thread can stay on topic, and people derailing my thread will be politely asked to go start their own.

That being said:
I would like to know just on what basis homosexuality is considered immoral.


Before starting this discussion, there are a few knee-jerk responses that I see over and over again, and for the sake of moving discussion along I want to just get these out of the way as soon as possible:
* "Its a choice" - so what? Actions are wrong based on their consequences and how they affect people. It doesnt matter if homosexuality is a choice or not, all that matters is the basis for considering why its wrong.

* "God says its wrong [insert bible verses here]" - why does God think its wrong? (I would appreciate if we could keep the number of bible verses quoted in this thread to a minimum, because it doesnt further the discussion in any meaningful way. All it does it lead me to ask "why does God think its wrong" over and over again.)

* "Its a perversion / its sick" - on what basis?

* "Its unnatural" - so what?

* "Its no better than pedophilia" - the reasons why pedophilia is wrong is because children cannot consent to a sexual relationship with an adult, therefore all pedophilia relationships are de facto exploitation and abuse (if someone really wants to talk about pedophilia, they can start their own thread, but please dont derail mine). Now, what are the reasons why homosexuality between consenting adults so bad?

 

[SackLunch]

Well, hehe, with the standards you foreordained, it will be pretty difficult for me to answer this! I am a Christian who does agree with the fundie view on this issue.

I'm sorry to do this to you, but as a Christian, I cannot separate out the Bible from this discussion. I use the Bible for instruction on these types of moral issues. And I do believe what God says in Leviticus 18:22. That is, God says, "Do not lie with a man as with a woman: It is an abomination."

 

[FSTDT]

I'm sorry to do this to you, but as a Christian, I cannot separate out the Bible from this discussion. I use the Bible for instruction on these types of moral issues. And I do believe what God says in Leviticus 18:22. That is, God says, "Do not lie with a man as with a woman: It is an abomination."

No worries.

One of the reasons why I dont really care for appeal to the bible is because it doesnt tell me why. I mean, its wholly possible for me to take the verses out your bible, and compare them to the verses from in the holy text of some other religion; now, when one text tells me its wrong, and the other text tells me its alright, who should I believe?

There really isnt any way to resolve this problem by looking at text alone, hence the frustration. To answer this problem meaningfully, I have to believe whichever text is the most reasonable (as in most logically sound and consistent).

So, I skip appeal to holy texts altogether and I simply ask "on what basis is it an abomination?". Without a good reason to believe it to be an abomination, I cannot be convinced that it is

 

[SackLunch]

No worries.

One of the reasons why I dont really care for appeal to the bible is because it doesnt tell me why. I mean, its wholly possible for me to take the verses out your bible, and compare them to the verses from in the holy text of some other religion; now, when one text tells me its wrong, and the other text tells me its alright, who should I believe?

There really isnt any way to resolve this problem by looking at text alone, hence the frustration. To answer this problem meaningfully, I have to believe whichever text is the most reasonable (as in most logically sound and consistent).

So, I skip appeal to holy texts altogether and I simply ask "on what basis is it an abomination?". Without a good reason to believe it to be an abomination, I cannot be convinced that it is

Yeah, I can see that. But I personally believe that today's cultural debate over whether homosexuality is moral is rooted in either of two things: 1) our own consciences (pro-homosexual), or 2) The Bible says it's a choice and a sin (anti-homosexual). I really haven't heard the views of other religious texts, although I have heard that Islam shares the same sentimentality as Christianity on this issue.

I think this is why this one issue always hits a brick wall. The pro-homosexual side says, "It's who they are, so let them be." The anti-homosexual side says, "It's who they choose to be, because the Bible says so." I view it as people either following their own consciences OR following what their religious tradition teaches.

Other religious traditions are far more fundamentalist than even Christianity. For example, we have all heard of fundamentalist Muslims publically beheading women for adultery. This is because in the Islamic world, Islamic law (Sharia) is widely regarded as the only proper form of law and government. For these folks, there is no such thing as separation of church and state.

 

[cobaltburrito]

BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS YOU SO YOU HEATHEN!!

lol
good thread btw..

 

[Blizzard1]

A common answer to this question is that it doesn't result in babies being formed.

 

[NOTW]

I simply ask "on what basis is it an abomination?". Without a good reason to believe it to be an abomination, I cannot be convinced that it is

On what basis?

Do two negative charges, or two positive charges, ever attract each other?
I don't think so. Somethings are just the way they are. Positive charge attract a negative charge.
It's as simple as that.

 

[mpshiel]

To think this can be reduced to:

People who are gay ignore the bible and those who are against gays respect it is absurd.

As many gleefully point out, high percentages of people voted against same sex marriage - what percentage of them would be able to quote chapter and verse for biblical reasons? 10% maybe 20 or 30% feeling it is "biblical" somehow, yet there are athiests and agnostics who voted against it too. "Nature loves diversity, Society hates it." - I can't tell you why but when a straight guy gets physically ill at the though of two guys being intimate, I am betting decisions aren't going to be made on logic, reason or even religious text.

It is also a huge misreprestation to classify even those who identify gay christians as ignorant of the texts. There are many, many who post here who have shown thier views and other scholars views on the texts which have about as much condemnation for same sex relationships (as relationships) as for being left handed. The Catholic church, the Anglican church and many protestants have no problem with homosexual orientation and last week the Anglican church has put out a notice on the acceptance of chaste same sex unions for members as high as Bishops. There are celibate gays and lesbians, monogomous gays and lesbians, those who live together without intimacy, etc - all having different views and interpretations - I find it puzzling that when there are over 2000 protestant denominations, anyone can make a sweeping statment about "Christian" views on anything.

 

[FSTDT]

A common answer to this question is that it doesn't result in babies being formed.

I plan to be voluntarily childless my whole life, so I have stand less of a chance of producing offspring than a gay couple who finds a sperm donor, surrogate mother, or open minded adoption agency.

Besides, no one gets upset when post-menupausal women and impotent men form a relationship, so I doubt that the inability to make babies has to do with it.

Do two negative charges, or two positive charges, ever attract each other?
I don't think so. Somethings are just the way they are. Positive charge attract a negative charge.
It's as simple as that.

What a perfectly obfuscated response. Are you trying to say that same-sex people can never be attracted to one another? Because thats not what they tell me.

As many gleefully point out, high percentages of people voted against same sex marriage - what percentage of them would be able to quote chapter and verse for biblical reasons? 10% maybe 20 or 30% feeling it is "biblical" somehow, yet there are athiests and agnostics who voted against it too. "Nature loves diversity, Society hates it." - I can't tell you why but when a straight guy gets physically ill at the though of two guys being intimate, I am betting decisions aren't going to be made on logic, reason or even religious text.

I agree. A lot of the straight people who I know, even those are in favor of gay rights, are very put off by the idea of two dudes kissing in the park. (Even me, a very liberal and tolerant person, cannot type that sentence without cringing or spasming a little.)

Its not logic, reason, or religious text, but just an "ick" factor I believe - its very easy to say "if it makes you feel 'ick' then its wrong". However, I think that it comes down to people feeling this "ick", where it is all too easy for this "ick" to be reinforced over and over again in the churches or by some decietful group like NARTH. For non-religious people, there are fewer reinforcing factors, so the "ick" does not lend itself as easily to pushing anti-gay legislation.

I am almost certain that the anti-gay attitude has nothing to do with the bible, but rather the bible is used as a tool to achieve some kind of moral highground. After all, how many times have you seen someone carry a "God hates divorcees" sign? Never. Being selective about which biblical principles to uphold makes it obvious that the bible is an afterthought, and that the motivation behind todays anti-gay probably has more to do with irrational prejudice or just "ick" if anything. When understood in this way, it makes a lot of sense how both theists and non-theists can approve anti-gay legislation, yet anti-gay theists outnumber anti-gay non-theists by a sizeable margin per capita.

 

[Zaac]

I know, I know, yet another homosexuality thread. But, I wanted to start one of my own, because all the other ones I read became derailed withing the first 2 pages. Hopefully, this thread can stay on topic, and people derailing my thread will be politely asked to go start their own.

That being said:
I would like to know just on what basis homosexuality is considered immoral.


Before starting this discussion, there are a few knee-jerk responses that I see over and over again, and for the sake of moving discussion along I want to just get these out of the way as soon as possible:
* "Its a choice" - so what? Actions are wrong based on their consequences and how they affect people. It doesnt matter if homosexuality is a choice or not, all that matters is the basis for considering why its wrong.

* "God says its wrong [insert bible verses here]" - why does God think its wrong? (I would appreciate if we could keep the number of bible verses quoted in this thread to a minimum, because it doesnt further the discussion in any meaningful way. All it does it lead me to ask "why does God think its wrong" over and over again.)

* "Its a perversion / its sick" - on what basis?

* "Its unnatural" - so what?

* "Its no better than pedophilia" - the reasons why pedophilia is wrong is because children cannot consent to a sexual relationship with an adult, therefore all pedophilia relationships are de facto exploitation and abuse (if someone really wants to talk about pedophilia, they can start their own thread, but please dont derail mine). Now, what are the reasons why homosexuality between consenting adults so bad?

First let me just say that you do not further a discussion by stacking the deck to get the responses that you want.

And now to the crux of this issue. God does not THINK anything. He KNOWS.

Why does He speak against the committing of homosexual acts? Because He is Holy . Because he is a God of order. And because He is a jealous God who wants to have a relationship with His creation.

The purpose of procreating is to have Godly parents raise Godly kid who in turn worship Christ and go out and His Great Commission.

Once you start all this alternative family/relationship stuff, the core family orderd by God starts to fall apart. Destroy that core family and you hinder God's method of fulfilling His Great Commission because there will be no families producing Godly children who continue in their worship and obedience to Christ.

That's not to say that homosexuals aren't capable of raising children who are Godly. It's to say that God is a God of order and when He tells you to do something, He expects your obedience and not a creation of every excuse in the world not to do it.

But I say again. If you ask the question "Why does God think it's wrong?" I'll tell youthat you're asking the wrong question.

 

[FSTDT]

First let me just say that you do not further a discussion by stacking the deck to get the responses that you want.

In defense of myself, I'm doing no such thing.

I just get tired of seeing the same 5 or 6 knee-jerk responses to the same question, so I do away with them immediately to save this thread from 10 pages of the same tired old arguments. In this way, the noise in a thread like this is cut down substantially.

And now to the crux of this issue. God does not THINK anything. He KNOWS.

...

But I say again. If you ask the question "Why does God think it's wrong?" I'll tell youthat you're asking the wrong question.

Whether God thinks or knows doesnt matter to me, all I care about are his reasons for condemning homosexuality. Can you tell me those reasons?

 

[LemmingLord]

That being said:
I would like to know just on what basis homosexuality is considered immoral.

* "God says its wrong [insert bible verses here]" - why does God think its wrong?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that for the old testament, the "abominations" listed by God are immoral because they are "unclean." By unclean, I mean in the time of the old testament (and until modern medicine) certain actions had a tendency to promote the spread of infection. For example, according to the OT, women need to leave the community once a month when they are having their periods (i.e. while they are more prone to catch or pass on blood bourne illness); and eating pork was unclean (pigs are easy to raise, but more susceptable to some disease). Sex of any kind is a "risk," so in these old times if you were gong to risk spreading disease, it should be for the purposes of procreation...

Of course this doesn't explain why it isn't an abomination to have sex with someone who cannot have children (post mensus for example). I'd imagine not too many people lived that long back in those days.

 

[Zaac]

In defense of myself, I'm doing no such thing.

I just get tired of seeing the same 5 or 6 knee-jerk responses to the same question, so I do away with them immediately to save this thread from 10 pages of the same tired old arguments. In this way, the noise in a thread like this is cut down substantially.


Whether God thinks or knows doesnt matter to me, all I care about are his reasons for condemning homosexuality. Can you tell me those reasons?

I did in the other post.

 

[mutantleader]

Gays are people too. Some people are just overconcerned with other people's walk with their personal deity. I wonder how many homophobics actually know any homosexuals.

There are some people that view sex in general as a sinful thing. To complicate the matter, sex without the purpose of procreating is also thought to be a no-no. Others see any forms of contraception as a taboo for the same reason.

In our current world, with the ever growing population, openness of sexuality, lower infant mortality rates, and a greater amount of acceptance of diversity, many people have departed for the belief that sex is only for procreation.

Unfortunately, the acceptance of homosexuality is stumbling to catch up to the times.

 

[Cerberus~]

Why does He speak against the committing of homosexual acts?

Let's see your answers:

Because He is Holy .

Ok...and. This doesn't answer the question. What does homosexuality have to do with holiness?

Because he is a God of order.

Again, what does this have to do with homosexuality?

And because He is a jealous God who wants to have a relationship with His creation.

Isn't jealousy a sin? Besides, how does homosexuality take away from this anymore than heterosexuality?

The purpose of procreating is to have Godly parents raise Godly kid who in turn worship Christ and go out and His Great Commission.

The purpose of procreation doesn't have much to do with homosexuality.

 

[levi501]

First let me just say that you do not further a discussion by stacking the deck to get the responses that you want.

lol, the OP asking for a logical reason instead of a biblical response is stacking the deck?
wait, nevermind... I know your answer.

And now to the crux of this issue. God does not THINK anything. He KNOWS.

ok. good to know. thanks.

Why does He speak against the committing of homosexual acts?

Begging the Question
The answer is he doesn't speak against it. (see lev18:22)

Because He is Holy . Because he is a God of order. And because He is a jealous God who wants to have a relationship with His creation.

And he can be all this and more while still finding nothing wrong with homosexual acts.
Which he btw has no problem with anyway. (see Romans 1)

The purpose of procreating is to have Godly parents raise Godly kid who in turn worship Christ and go out and His Great Commission.

no it's not. false assertion heard and rejected.

Once you start all this alternative family/relationship stuff, the core family orderd by God starts to fall apart. Destroy that core family and you hinder God's method of fulfilling His Great Commission because there will be no families producing Godly children who continue in their worship and obedience to Christ.

slippery slope falacy

That's not to say that homosexuals aren't capable of raising children who are Godly.

I agree.

It's to say that God is a God of order and when He tells you to do something, He expects your obedience and not a creation of every excuse in the world not to do it.

no actually he expects excuses and expects us to ignore him because we're sinners remember?

But I say again. If you ask the question "Why does God think it's wrong?" I'll tell youthat you're asking the wrong question.

why because you can't answer it?
Try to put a logical argument together as to why God would have a problem with homosexuality now.
I double-dog dippity doo-da dare you try!

 

[Uphill Battle]

To try to get a Christian to answer this question, and asking him or her to not use the source where they derive their truth, isn't logically possible. I am not going to go in to each different version, denomination, sect, cult, interpretation or point of view.

All I know is, many Christians hold that the bible is the word of God. So to ask them to separate their world view from their scripture doesn't make alot of sense.

Do I believe homosexuality is wrong? sure. That's what I read in the bible. That doesn't mean that I hate homosexuals. Any more than I hate an adulterer (I'd have to hate myself for my past) a liar (Ditto) or any other form of sin the bible describes.

But because of my faith in the bible as God's word, i cannot separate my point of view from it. Even when it goes against what I might want. (I.E. that fornication rule.... it isn't the easiest one to abide by!)

 

[Cerberus~]

To try to get a Christian to answer this question, and asking him or her to not use the source where they derive their truth, isn't logically possible. I am not going to go in to each different version, denomination, sect, cult, interpretation or point of view.

All I know is, many Christians hold that the bible is the word of God. So to ask them to separate their world view from their scripture doesn't make alot of sense.

Do I believe homosexuality is wrong? sure. That's what I read in the bible. That doesn't mean that I hate homosexuals. Any more than I hate an adulterer (I'd have to hate myself for my past) a liar (Ditto) or any other form of sin the bible describes.

But because of my faith in the bible as God's word, i cannot separate my point of view from it. Even when it goes against what I might want. (I.E. that fornication rule.... it isn't the easiest one to abide by!)

You don't have too. We're just asking you not to post Scripture. We allready know the verses you're going to cite, and you (should) allready know that we'll just scroll on by like every other time you regurgitate the same quotes.

We want answers. We want to know why God doesn't like homosexuality. Why He made rules against it, and why, according to some here, it's worse than murder.

We know why murder is wrong. You can't have a civil society that tolerates ppl killing eachother willy-nilly. Plus, I think we can all agree that we wouldn't want some nutjob killing us. I'ld like to hear a list of clear cut reason that homosexuality is wrong.

Certainly there has to be a logical reason to say homosexuality is wrong?

 

[Uphill Battle]

You don't have too. We're just asking you not to post Scripture. We allready know the verses you're going to cite, and you (should) allready know that we'll just scroll on by like every other time you regurgitate the same quotes.

Ignoring them does not lessen their relevance to a christian. In removing scriptural reference, you seek to have a human only perspective on the question, I can understand that. And I understand that you're going to ignore it out of hand.

We want answers. We want to know why God doesn't like homosexuality. Why He made rules against it, and why, according to some here, it's worse than murder.

Because that is not how God intended things to be. He created men for women, and women for men. I don't think an all powerful God really has to HAVE more reason, does he? his will is one way, we violate it by going the other. And don't buy into the fallicy of one sin being more heinous than another. The person who steals is just as guilty as the liar, as the person who practices homosexuality.

We know why murder is wrong. You can't have a civil society that tolerates ppl killing eachother willy-nilly. Plus, I think we can all agree that we wouldn't want some nutjob killing us. I'ld like to hear a list of clear cut reason that homosexuality is wrong.

But we do. sure, we have laws against it, but we barely bat an eye against all the murders across the world, unless it affects us directly, or if it's a point of interest, like a highly publicized case. Take Rwanda, for instance. WE watched the news, flicked off the T.V., and lost no sleep over it. And of course we don't want a nutjob kiling us.

Certainly there has to be a logical reason to say homosexuality is wrong?

Like I said before, it goes against God's will.

now to say that you have to remove God from the picture, you are saying that the author of right and wrong should have no bearing on the discussion.

You don't really want a list, or a "logical" reasoning, It appears more like an attempt to say that seperate from God, there is no reason for condeming homosexuality. BINGO! you got it. same as seperate from God, there is no reason to condem adultery either... or for that matter, lying... as long as it doesnt "hurt" anyone. Or vadalism.... just teens having fun, you know... etc...

 

[Cerberus~]

Ignoring them does not lessen their relevance to a christian. In removing scriptural reference, you seek to have a human only perspective on the question, I can understand that. And I understand that you're going to ignore it out of hand.

A completely human perspective is exactly what we want. We want you to use your mind.

Because that is not how God intended things to be. He created men for women, and women for men. I don't think an all powerful God really has to HAVE more reason, does he? his will is one way, we violate it by going the other. And don't buy into the fallicy of one sin being more heinous than another.

Have you ever looked at nature? If what you say is true, how do you explain homosexual tendencies displayed in hundreds of species of animals?

Also, that's not really a reason so much as an observation. Yes, they cannot procreate in a homosexual relationship though natural means, but it means nothing. It's like saying it's wrong top fly because we aren't born with wings. Or that kissing in wrong because our mouths weren't made for such a reason.

Also, if it so unnatural, explain the pleasure that comes from it?

The person who steals is just as guilty as the liar, as the person who practices homosexuality.

Good to know.

But we do. sure, we have laws against it, but we barely bat an eye against all the murders across the world, unless it affects us directly, or if it's a point of interest, like a highly publicized case. Take Rwanda, for instance. WE watched the news, flicked off the T.V., and lost no sleep over it. And of course we don't want a nutjob kiling us.

This doesn't have much to do with the point I was trying to make.

Like I said before, it goes against God's will.

Do you understand the difference between theological, and logical?

Not to mention such a statement is merely you unsubstanciated, unverifiable opinion. That's exactly what we don't want. We know what your opinion is. I've seen several posts before that look exactly like this, almost word for word.

Do you have any facts (that can be tested, once again, no Bible "facts") to support your opinion, or if your stance purely theological?

now to say that you have to remove God from the picture, you are saying that the author of right and wrong should have no bearing on the discussion.

A lot of ppl here would disagree with that. We want to bring it to a logical level that we can all understand.

You don't really want a list, or a "logical" reasoning, It appears more like an attempt to say that seperate from God, there is no reason for condeming homosexuality. BINGO! you got it. same as seperate from God, there is no reason to condem adultery either... or for that matter, lying... as long as it doesnt "hurt" anyone. Or vadalism.... just teens having fun, you know... etc

Ok, but why does God say homosexuality is wrong? Gonna keep asking till I get a decent answer.