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Why is hell even necessary?

DontTreadOnMike

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nothing caused the big bang? interesting.

Is that any less valid that saying some uncreated super intelligence caused it? Maybe the universe is uncreated and eternal. Maybe it has always existed and undergoes many cycles of expansion and contraction. Maybe we just don't know and should accept that until there's a reason to say otherwise.

From the start, the initial assumption of the cosmological argument is flawed and then it just goes downhill from there. The assumption that the universe began is unfounded. We don't know what was going on before the big bang and we can never know. The big bang is an event horizon (not related to black holes). In fact the phrase "before the big bang" makes as much sense as saying "north of the north pole" because time itself came into existence at the big bang. Now, is this just one of an infinite regress of cycles? Probably not since the expansion of the universe is speeding up rather than slowing down, but maybe this is the final cycle for some reason? Who knows. It's all unfounded speculation. There are lots of ideas about what caused the big bang or whether it makes sense to say it was "caused" at all. We just don't know; we CAN'T know. But some ideas make more sense than others and WAY down on the list is the idea that a giant omniscient, omnipotent, omni-benevolent sky father poofed us into existence. I mean, why your god? Why not Marduk or Odin or whichever Hindu god is supposed to have created everything? Or rather, why not just accept that you don't know, we don't know, and we can't know?


EDIT: ok I know how to word it. Saying "It's a mystery, therefore a god did it" is exactly as irrational as saying "No one knows where the lost boats and planes of the Bermuda triangle went. It's a mystery, therefore aliens."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfAzaDyae-k
 
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createdtoworship

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the cosmological argument according to it's founder...Aquinas...

The basic idea is that everything has a prior cause, but the chain of causes can't go back infinitely far, so there must be a first cause. The "first way" argument might be summarized like this:

1. Some things change. (empirical premise, verified by observation)
2. Everything that changes is made to change by something else. (Aquinas has a separate argument for this)
3. The chain of causes can't go back to infinity.
4. Therefore, there must be a cause of change that does not itself change.

Premise 2, that everything that changes is made to change by something else, can be seen as having two parts: that every change is caused, and that the cause of a change in an object must be a different object from the one that changes. Aquinas seems to presuppose the first of these two claims without argument. The argument for the second appears to be this:

1. An object can change from not having property G to having G only if the object is potentially G but not actually G.
2. The cause of an object's becoming G must itself actually be G.
3. Therefore, a thing cannot cause itself to acquire a property.

There are several points at which these arguments might be questioned. Consider premise 2 of the first argument. The second argument is supposed to show that 2 is true. However, the second argument shows at best only that if a change has a cause, the cause must be a different object from the one that changes. It doesn't show that there must be a cause of change at all. And in fact the best evidence we have from contemporary science suggests that in fact changes do not necessarily have causes. Consider the decay of an atom of a radioactive substance. It appears that there simply is no explanation for why this happens at one time rather than another: when such an atom will decay is a purely random matter.

Another weak point is premise 2 of the second argument. Aquinas's example is heat: one object can become hot, he suggests, only if a second object which is already hot causes it to become hot. But this isn't the only way something can become hot! Think of chemical reactions that produce heat, or of producing heat by means of friction.

It may also be worth noticing that if the argument were successful, it would show the existence of at least one unchanged changer -- but nothing in the argument shows that there aren't more than one.

Aquinas's "second way" is closely related to the first; it's a more general version of the cosmological argument. The argument is something like this:

1. Every event has a distinct cause.
2. Either the chain of causes goes on forever, or there is a first cause.
3. The chain of causes can't go back forever.
4. Therefore, there is a first cause.

This has some of the same problems as the previous version -- in particular, it is not at all clear that every event has a cause (the example of radioactive decay applies here also).

Apart from questions about whether the arguments are sound (i.e. whether their premises are true and their conclusions follow from their premises), there is also the question of whether the conclusion really proves what the theist wants. The conclusion is that there is a first (uncaused) cause. But why should we identify this with God? As Russell points out, if the argument works then there must be something that is uncaused, so the first premise is false. But once we've accepted the possibility that something is uncaused, it seems that we've opened the door to the idea that something other than God is uncaused (for example, the Big Bang).
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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Yeah I know the argument. But it relies upon a lot of assumptions. For example:

3. The chain of causes can't go back to infinity.

Why? I'm not saying I disagree exactly, but you haven't established why this should necessarily be the case. This is philosophy you're talking about, not science. You can sit and think up philosophical rules all you want but until you can show that your ideas accurately reflect reality, you haven't explained anything.


Anyway, did you read your own post? It casts a lot of doubts on the argument you're trying to make. I don't know if you typed it up yourself or copied and pasted it from somewhere, but you should re-read the last paragraph that I quoted above.


Your original post, before you posted all this stuff, was the one that was sent to my email via the subscription feature. I know you erased it and I'm not sure why. Perhaps you realized the flaw in the logic. But I'd like to quote it here for the sake of the discussion. This isn't directed at you because you erased this so I assume you don't stand by it, it's just for anyone who may think this way.

whatever begins to exist has a cause..... (the law of causation). We may not know what the cause was but there was a cause. The only thing powerful enough to cause the big bang is God, unless you have another idea like aliens.

This is called special pleading and it's a logical fallacy. You're ascribing attributes to your god that haven't been established. You can say that by definition, god is the only thing with the power to cause the big bang, as if everyone agrees with that without evidence. How would it be any less valid for me to say that, no, Harry Potter also has that much power so it could have either been God or Harry Potter?

Again, that wasn't directed at you specifically since you erased that part of your post so I can only assume you saw that flaw in your logic.
 
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createdtoworship

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yeah the post had arguments from both sides. But to answer your question- I think infinity is not a scientific idea. So everything had to have a beginning. Thats scientific.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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yeah the post had arguments from both sides. But to answer your question- I think infinity is not a scientific idea. So everything had to have a beginning. Thats scientific.

It's not scientific unless you can show it. And actually infinity is a very scientific idea. The current consensus is that the universe stretches on forever into infinity. For there to be a border to the universe the laws of physics would have to be different in that place and everything we know suggests that the laws of physics are the same everywhere.

I agree, it seems intuitive that the universe must have a creator, whether intelligent or not. It seems intuitive that there must be a "before." But then again, it seemed intuitive at one point that the earth averaged out to be flat, that light traveled instantaneously, and that gods caused the weather. Now we know the earth is round, we have general relativity, and we can study meteorology....COUNTER to our own limited intuition and senses. The lesson here is that we shouldn't assume anything without evidence. If you don't know something, don't just make it up. If you really can't stand not knowing something and you have to make something up, at least make something up that is consistent with the evidence that we do have.

Like I said much earlier in the thread, I think the least irrational form of theism is deism. If you must believe in a god, that system makes the most sense. It's still just a god of the gaps/arguement-from-ignorance, but it is the one most consistent with evidence. The god of the gaps is shrinking. Every mystery that has ever been solved in history has turned out to be NOT magic, NOT gods. Each day we discover more and more about the universe that we didn't understand the day before and the answer is always something natural, measurable, and knowable. Sure, there may be a god somewhere, and it may have created the universe, but based on the track record, it's best to assume that the origin of the universe has a natural explanation....everything else does.
 
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createdtoworship

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and then there is the watchmaker argument: if you see a watch you must deduce that there was a watch maker. Something doesn't just tick from billions of years of evolution. A creation dictates a creator. Irreducible (specified) complexity as presented by michael behe.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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and then there is the watchmaker argument: if you see a watch you must deduce that there was a watch maker.

The way I originally heard this argument was if you walk along a beach and see a watch in the sand, you don't assume it evolved, you assume it had a creator. And that's absolutely correct. Why do you assume that? Because it bears the marks of a creator in contrast to the beach it was laying on.

When you look at a beach or a tree or the sky, do you honestly not see a difference? The reason we assume a watch has a maker and painting has a painter is because we know how watches and paintings are made. And we also know where trees come from, how beaches form, why the sky is blue, and what causes sunsets. Can you really not see the difference?

The reason we don't assume the watch evolved there on it's own is because watches don't have DNA, don't reproduce with variation, they aren't alive.

The universe is not a well oiled machine. It is a vast, empty, chaotic, wasteland. 99.999999999% of it is hostile to human life. The earth is smaller than a mote of dust among the sand storm that is the universe. We might as well be a mathematical point. Even the earth is largely hostile to human life. Saying it was designed specifically for us because we fit it so well is absurd. We fit it so well because we grew up here. If we didn't fit it well, we would have died off (like most of the species that have ever existed.) I can't remember who said it, but someone compared that type of thinking to a puddle of water thinking the hole it currently resides in was specially created for it because it fits so well. But the environment wasn't made for us, we were shaped by the environment.


Something doesn't just tick from billions of years of evolution.
Sure they do. You are the direct decedent of the first living organism. The hearts of your ancestors have been ticking away for millions of years. You are the latest in a long continuous lineage of life stretching back for eons. And before that, the raw materials that make you up were forged in the hearts of stars and supernovas. How is that not incredible?!


A creation dictates a creator.
We still have yet to establish that the universe was actually created. It's here, but we don't know how it got here. You're still jumping to conclusions. You have to show your work.


Irreducible (specified) complexity as presented by michael behe.

YouTube - ‪Irreducible complexity cut down to size‬‏
 
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createdtoworship

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well there is a modified version of irreducible complexity that is called specified complexity by william dembski and it's harder to refute.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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well there is a modified version of irreducible complexity that is called specified complexity by william dembski and it's harder to refute.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I've heard that argument.

EDIT: I think this guy summed it up pretty well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiUJLHDYOBs


It seems to be the same old argument from incredulity. ("P is too incredible or I cannot imagine how P could possibly be true; therefore P must be false.") It's the same old "all of this couldn't have come about by pure chance" argument. The only thing is, no one says everything came about by random chance. Yes, mutations are random, but the beneficial ones are selected out of the bad ones. If I'm a small furry animal and I have a mutation that makes me slightly more conspicuous to predators, I'm probably not going to survive long enough to reproduce, thus that non-beneficial mutation is not passed on to the next generation. If I have a slight mutation that makes my fur closer to the color of my surroundings, I have a higher chance of passing on my genes to the next generation.

But this is evolution and has nothing to do with the origin of the universe, which is what we were talking about. Unless you're saying the universe is fine tuned. In which case, I've already explained that it's not. The universe is 99.99999999999999999% hostile to human life. Even the speck of dust that is habitable can be very hostile. The very sunlight that provides energy to the earth so that life can thrive also happens to cause cancer. That doesn't seem like an intelligent design to me.

This whole fine tuning thing is exactly like that puddle quote I brought up before. I've since found the actual quote, ". . . imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in-an interesting hole I find myself in-fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" -Douglas Adams

The environment is not fine-tuned for us, we are fine-tuned for the environment because we grew up here. Our features have come about through trial and error. Those creatures that failed, died out. The record of our past resides in our bodies, in our DNA, in our vestigial features, in the poor design and mistakes.
 
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createdtoworship

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"A single letter of the alphabet is specified without being complex. A long sentence of random letters is complex without being specified. A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified." [10]

DNA is one such item that has specified complexity. But the rest is the same as irreducible complexity. Namely that the chances of it forming are very small by itself with just time added. as far as your comment : mutations are nearly always non beneficial.
 
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LOCO

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The best way I can describe it is this way.

Children are disciplined for bad behaviour e.g. time out, no TV etc and if that bad behaviour continued the consequences were worse. I know some may be thinking what could be worse than no TV... The consequences depended usually on our level of understanding of what we did, was it deliberate, were we truly sorry for our bad behaviour etc. This is for the chlidren's own good, parents want to raise well adjusted adults who contribute 'positively' to society.

From the Catholic and most Christian's viewpoint we can't sin and disobey our Father in heaven and expect no consequences for our bad behaviour. This punishment is also dependent upon whether the sin was confessed in a repentant manner, was the sin repeated again and again? Was it a mortal or venial sin?

Some sins may receive double penalty. Time served in prison on earth as well as the final judgement. Others may get away with it on earth due to a technicality but nothing can be hidden from God on personal Judgement Day.

Leading an unexamined life as a human being, whether you are a Christian or not is unhealthy.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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That's still the same argument you keep presenting only reworded. It's an argument from incredulity. You can't imagine how it could be so and therefore it must be false. That's not how science is done. They don't just sit around and talk about what is possible and what isn't, they perform tests, and then they criticize each other and try to discount each other's results. The results that can't be discounted become theory.

You're still just presenting a god-of-the-gaps argument. We don't know what it was so it must be god. Well you just said we don't know so why claim that it must be anything? Why not wait until we do know?

The things we don't about the universe are mostly about how it initially started so if the god of the gaps is real, he started the universe....14 billion years ago, and has let it run it's course naturally over the eons. The same goes for life. We know that life evolves; that is a fact. So if god-of-the-gaps created the first life, then he obviously designed it to evolve naturally over the course of earth's 4.5 billion year life. That's the most you can say if you use a god-of-the-gaps argument.
 
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elman

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Actually we do not know as a fact that life evolves from non life. We also do not know as a fact that we exist here with no purpose or meaning other than what we can dream up for ourselves; and after extinction, no destiny.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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Actually we do not know as a fact that life evolves from non life.

Did I say that? I said "Life evolves." Evolution has nothing to do with how life began, it only deals with how life has changed and changes now since it began. We don't know for sure how life began but it is undeniable that life changes. Life has evolved and evolves now, whether it was specially created or not. That is a fact.

We also do not know as a fact that we exist here with no purpose or meaning other than what we can dream up for ourselves; and after extinction, no destiny.

Evolution has nothing to say about purpose or what happens after death.
 
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createdtoworship

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science has yet to produce an example of DNA evolving from non DNA.
 
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razeontherock

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That's no longer a valid statement. RNA has been produced from non-life. And it appears to have been done under conditions that are reasonable to have naturally occurred. (I must add that while a major accomplishment, this is still a long way from claiming life came from non-life, especially since everything we know so far depends on a working eco-system. So you have to go from non-life to ... working eco-system, before Ev has a chance.)

Which has nothing to do with doctrine on hell whatsoever.
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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Razeontherock is right. Scientists have been able to assemble some of the building blocks of life in the lab for quite some time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yet1xkAv_HY

But this is still just an argument from ignorance. We haven't been able to replicate the results YET so it must be a god? That's a huge conclusion to jump to. Why jump to ANY conclusion? Why not be content with saying "I don't know"?

And razeontherock is also right about this not having anything to do with hell haha
 
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elman

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I agree.
 
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createdtoworship

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Razeontherock also said this is a long way from saying life came from non life.
 
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