Why is hell eternal?

Fiendishjester said:

So in the end is God responsible for people going to hell, judging by the fact that He created it specifically for that certain class of people?

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I started a new thread by request to talk about this called Hell2; I answered your question there look forward to talking more with you about it.

Blessings,
Whitehorse

Thank you for staying keeping us on the topic Whitehorse, much appreciated.

BINC, your analogy implies that men will be brought out of the painting into heaven and hell, and that heaven and hell, although possibly in another dimension, which are real places, are outside of time and therefore have always existed, but are limited to space...? Would you please elaborate on this? I think that from the way heaven is described in the Bible, it is trustworthy to think that heaven will be an infinite amount of continuous time.

peace,
Thwingly.

Ok, sorry my previous explanation wsn't very clear. I will give it another try. I really didn't get my explanation from descriptions of heaven, but more from descriptions of God. God lives in heaven, so I figured that they must be alike. You and me live in 4 dimensions, length, width, height, and time (but we cannot really control our movement through time, we are somehow propelled or somthing in one direction, I haven't figured this part out). I get the feeling from reading the bible that God has the ability to move freely in time, partly from the fact that he know what we consider the future. I hate to use the over-used river analogy, but here it is. Say we were sailing on a river. We know only what we have passed, and can make some guesses about what will happen downstream based on what happened upstream (rapids, bends, ect.). God can walk along the side of the river. He can walk or run or whatever ahead and see other parts. For him though, "downstream" and "upstream" would have no real meaning, like "past" and "future" don't seem to bother him much in the bible. I cannot point to a verse and say "here is my proof." The river is not infinite. Eventually, it wil end and either God will pull us over to the land on his side of the river, or we will go to where the river empties out into the lake of fire. Heaven and hell do not continues for uncountable years, they will just exist. Kind of like you can be in a room forever, but it may not be infinite. It is just adding a 5th dimension.

The room thing and river thing are just analogies. They aren't perfect, but I can't really describe how I think it is without relating it to somthing a bit more understandable.

Like I've said, I have no proof. This is just one thing I have thought of to try to explain how things might be. What do you think?

Oh, and I am sorry if it sounded like I meant they were limited in space. I have no idea. They could be I guess, but I doubt it. Edit: I reread my earlier post and I think I see where you got this from. Is it when I said Hell may not be an infinitely huge room? What I meant was to realte it back to my statement that people may not spent infinite years in hell, but that it will be all that there is for them. In my example of the room I had taken out a dimension to try to make it easier to understand (and we can see how well that worked) but I meant Hell is not an infinitely huge room in the sensej of time, as it does not exist for infinite years but merely exists. The same with heaven. I hope this clears things up, but with my luck I probably just confused everyone more. Oh well. I am totaly open to opinions about this, even to point out flaws. I am always trying to update and refine my theories. Thanks.

Y is hell eternal?


Because the soul is eternal.


Y is heaven eternal?


Because the soul is eternal.


All of us make choices everyday of our lives that reveal what is in our soul. We only have a short amount of time to reveal in what situation our soul is in, and everything that we do effects another person in some way..good or bad.

Thank you for your posts BINC.

I do not believe that heaven and hell have no time, and I must point out that, while God is in heaven, heaven had to be created by God, and therefore it seems unlikey that there is no time in its dimensions (without time, it points to the conclusion that it always existed, I'd have to ponder this some more though.) Revelation 20:10 says, "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." That sounds like a clear reference to a timeline, but essentially every day is the same.

Peace,
Thwingly.

Good point. But, just because heaven did not always exist does not mean it needs to have time. Actually, without time it seems to me that the phrase "always existed" wouldn't mean much because "always" means somthing like "at all times." However, what I meant was not that heaven doesn't have time, but I think more like in heaven, time does not aply to the residents the same way it does on earth. It would be like, you can walk around in three dimensions down here on earth, but i think you might be able to walk around in four in heaven, the fourth being time. Some people have told me "that sounds like you think that in heaven humans will get the same powers as God." I told them no. On earth, there are lots of things that the President can do, places he can go, things he can affect, that I cannot. That explains why "only the father knows the time of the second arrival" even if other residents can walk around in time. As always, no evidence here. Only musings.

As fot the revelations verse, I believe that sometimes the bible says things in ways that get the point across easier, and are easier for us to understand. Day and night might simply be a way of expressing the fact that they will know nothing but torment.

Thwingly said:

When I say, "people commit different degrees of sin," perhaps I should have included an example! Look at Hitler and the guy next door. Hitler was responsible for millions of deaths... how about the guy next door? While both have sinned, Hitler's actions throughout his life were a lot worse than the actions of the guy next door.

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Hitler is no worse then your next-door neighbour. The consequences of Hitler's actions are nastier than the consequences of your neighbour's. However, the consequences of a hurricane are also nastier than the consequences of your neighbour's actions, and you wouldn't call the hurricane morally worse. God doesn't judge a hurricane as good or bad because it has no will, no intentions. Whereas God judges us because we have no will to obey God but willfully disobey Him.
My quotation from James, "whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it", clearly means that James thinks that we are totally pure or totally guilty. Paul agrees because he says that what the law brings is the "knowledge of sin" - not "knowledge of being partly sinful, partly good".

Thwingly said:

While I don't have my Bible to look at the context of Romans 3, I must point out that Christians are not under the power of sin, Christ has redeemed them and they have been set free.

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Well, if you'd had it to hand you would read "no one will be justified by works of the law". I'm sure there's something to your point that I haven't grasped yet, but: the Christian always has to trust in God's forgiveness, because he is the worst possible sinner. Through Christ he is not under the power of sin, which is death, but he still sins. If it were not so, he would come to the point of not needing Christ.

Thwingly said:

1) How can God be loving if there is a hell?
Actually, one possible reason there is a hell is because God is loving. He doesn't only love you my friend, he loves justice, righteousness, and holiness as well.

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Well said!

BInC said:

I believe that God does not simply exist at all points in time. I believe instead that he exists at a place above us in time.

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I would agree. My logic would go: God is in heaven and we are on earth. Earth=the world/universe in which we live including its processes such as time. God stands above the world, He created the world and he judges the world - world being not the world at the present moment but the whole history and future of the world.
God created the world: this means that the world is as God's will will have it. I would say God didn't create the world at a point in time, he created the world and time with it (otherwise He would be subject to the laws of physics).
But, this is still slightly speculative.

PS if anyone think of eternal as "infinite", he should mean "not finite". Mathematically, there are an infinite number of infinities , so if you pick one (e.g. the continuum), you really ought to say why!) Perhaps: our experience is like this; heaven is most likely the same? (somewhat questionable, as heaven is in so many respects - 1 Cor. 15 - the opposite of Earth)

water_ripple said:

Because the soul is eternal.

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What is the soul? I disagree that we naturally posess anything eternal.
"dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return" - Genisis 3:19
Does dust have a soul?
Paul says that there is fleshy and spiritual: but spirit is not something we posess, but a gift of God to those in Christ. Fleshy is what we are; but spiritual is what God's grace declares us.

Thwingly said:

The "Second death"- Eternal separation from God in the Lake of Fire.

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Eternal death? What's that?
Death = going from life to no life
Eternal death = going from life to no life, but never getting there???

Since we have an reinterpretation of death, how about my reinterpretation of the fires of hell. We need one or the other for consistency.
The fires of hell are the anger of the eternal God, an anger external to us and objectively there to be perceived, which is as total as our sin is total, the unchanging final judgement.

CSMR said:

I would agree. My logic would go: God is in heaven and we are on earth. Earth=the world/universe in which we live including its processes such as time. God stands above the world, He created the world and he judges the world - world being not the world at the present moment but the whole history and future of the world.
God created the world: this means that the world is as God's will will have it. I would say God didn't create the world at a point in time, he created the world and time with it (otherwise He would be subject to the laws of physics).
But, this is still slightly speculative.

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That is pretty much what I was saying, only explained better. Thanks CSMR, I never have been good at expressing myself.

When you people stop casting judgement on God, let me know.

"For our God is a consuming fire." (Hebrews 12:29)

Fire has two properties....burning and illuminating. I believe I've heard love also likened to fire. When you love your enemy who does you injustice, you pour burning coals on his head. (Romans 12:20-21) There is also a verse that says God is love.
Just because fire burns paper but purifies gold, that doesn't mean the essence of fire is different, but what is different is the material exposed to the fire.
When He reveals to us His glory, and we shall see Him as He is, we will all be set on fire by His Love, which is true Life...eternal Life, but to some this will be terrible, for all that is in our hearts will be opened up and laid bare...but for those purified during this life by the way of the Cross, our hearts will be pure and will be illumined and shining brighter than the brightest sun, because He will already have been living in us, and united with us.
Eternal being has been given to us all by His resurrection...but will it be one of blessedness or condemnation? I know if I were to die now, it would most certainly be the latter for me.

Reading in the Greek, the believer receives life and the sinner receives judgment. It sounds like they are of equal quality and duration. Both are described as (aionios), but it's not that simple.

Rewards during aionion life for the faithful Christian are further qualified throughout Scripture with various forms of words, such as akataluton, meaning imperishable, amarantos and amarantinos, meaning unfading, aphtharto, meaning immortal or incorruptible, and athanasian meaning immortality.

Punishment for sin never has any qualifying words, which denote endless duration. The term forever and ever "ages of ages", is a Greek transliteration of a Hebraism, such as Holy of Holies, Song of Songs, King of Kings, Lord of Lords. It is the superlative, being qualitative, not quantitative.

Eternal (age-lasting) life is a quality, which Christians experience both now, and in the Kingdom to come, and has no end. For the sinner, there will be chastisment, which Scripture calls "aionian kolasin". Kolasin comes from a verb that has to do with pruning trees for their benefit, not torture, and it lasts only for a certain age or ages, not eternally like rewards of Christians.

There would probably be no fully developed eternal damnation doctrine, if emperor Justinian had not commanded the Church in his empire to teach an endless (ateleutetos aionios) punishment for the wicked. He knew that aionios alone did not carry the force of eternity, so he qualified it with ateleutetos, which is not found anywhere in Scripture.

No one deserves eternal damnation.

Hell is control.

People would not be conform to peace if they knew they would eventually be freed.

The ultimate form of peace requires an ultimate form of punishment, as one extreme deservers another.

First Echelon said:

No one deserves eternal damnation.

Hell is control.

People would not be conform to peace if they knew they would eventually be freed.

The ultimate form of peace requires an ultimate form of punishment, as one extreme deservers another.

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But do we have the authority to make this determination? Can we truly judge God? Hell is much more than incentive to right behavior. It's God unveiling His justice. If you were one of those Jews in the concentration camp, would you still feel no one deserves hell?

I would feel that no one deserves Hell all the more acutely.

Eternal suffering is an absolute, and no human is absolute.

First Echelon said:

I would feel that no one deserves Hell all the more acutely.

Eternal suffering is an absolute, and no human is absolute.

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I'm not sure what you mean by no human is an absolute.

I mean that no human is constant.

No human can stand by one thing to the end of time.

Do you not think that after so long of suffering this soul would eventually truly and completely wish to repent with all of its being?

Does this eventual purity truly deserve a continuation of its suffering?

First Echelon said:

I mean that no human is constant.

No human can stand by one thing to the end of time.

Do you not think that after so long of suffering this soul would eventually truly and completely wish to repent with all of its being?

Does this eventual purity truly deserve a continuation of its suffering?

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Many do. But is hell dependent on the creature, or the God who created the human and heaven and hell alike?

Moreover, God has a time table. Once He shuts the door, no one can open it, and that's why Jesus admonishes us to make every effort to enter the Kingdom of God.

It's not a preferable arrangement to us, but it is just. If men don't love God in His mercy, do you suppose they would love Him when the mercy is used up and His love still unreciprocated?

Your metaphors are far too ambigous to be straightforward.

To say that eternal damnation is just is to deny choice.

Forever means forever, and humans change, but eternity does not.