Why is God's reason for allowing sin still "good"?

[pc_76]

This is a pretty common moral argument I hear from Christians that God's reason for why evil or bad things happen is ultimately good. But why? I just think good is good and bad is bad. What would you think if man's own law explained that heinous things like murder and child abuse for example, was ultimately good while simultaneously denouncing it as wrong?

This is just a type of argument I can't accept. How could people condemn something and in same breath believe such is ultimately justified? Sounds like a slippery slope argument too.

 

[HTacianas]

This is a pretty common moral argument I hear from Christians that God's reason for why evil or bad things happen is ultimately good. But why? I just think good is good and bad is bad. What would you think if man's own law explained that heinous things like murder and child abuse for example, was ultimately good while simultaneously denouncing it as wrong?

This is just a type of argument I can't accept. How could people condemn something and in same breath believe such is ultimately justified? Sounds like a slippery slope argument too.

That's just someone's opinion. And it usually comes from someone who can't answer the question so they try to make something up. The better answer is "God works in mysterious ways". That means literally "I don't know why but I trust in God".

 

[oikonomia]

This is a pretty common moral argument I hear from Christians that God's reason for why evil or bad things happen is ultimately good. But why? I just think good is good and bad is bad. What would you think if man's own law explained that heinous things like murder and child abuse for example, was ultimately good while simultaneously denouncing it as wrong?

This is just a type of argument I can't accept. How could people condemn something and in same breath believe such is ultimately justified? Sounds like a slippery slope argument too.

Taking the crucifixion of the Son of God as probably the biggest example, the damage Satan causes can never exceed the blessing God causes. He is able to engineer all things to accomplish greater benefit not matter how much His enemy causes harm.

We know eventually this trouble maker will go to his eternal reward and be no more.
And those who are God's will come out of the ages of great tribulation as the New Jerusalem.

These are those who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev. 7:14b)

And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal. (Rev. 21:10,11)

All that this enemy did will be used by God to produce such an eternally glorious outcome.
I extend the sovereignty of Christ's redemptive death over all other examples in the Bible.

His multifarouos wisdom in this is manifest to the good and bad principalities. All the glory will go to God. All the shame to
His enemies for all their futile schemes.

In order that now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenlies the multifarious wisdom of God might be made known through the church,
According to the eternal purpose which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord, (Eph. 3:10,11)

 

[Maria Billingsley]

This is a pretty common moral argument I hear from Christians that God's reason for why evil or bad things happen is ultimately good. But why? I just think good is good and bad is bad. What would you think if man's own law explained that heinous things like murder and child abuse for example, was ultimately good while simultaneously denouncing it as wrong?

This is just a type of argument I can't accept. How could people condemn something and in same breath believe such is ultimately justified? Sounds like a slippery slope argument too.

I agree. Evil can not be used to achieve righteousness, that which is good. Evil actions always have negative consequences, even if they seem to have good results in the short term.
Blessings.

 

[oikonomia]

I would like to submit a song on God bringing glory out of all the misfortune to His people.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

He is able to engineer all things to accomplish greater benefit

Does this mean our Father engineers evil to accomplish good ?

 

[oikonomia]

Does this mean our Father engineers evil to accomplish good ?

I think the case of Joseph's story is an instructful one.
Marvelously, all the misfortuned planned against him by jealous brothers God turned to accomplish His plan.
Joseph assured his brothers he would not seek revenge. God's trancendent sovereignty had miraculously made all turn out to good.

Gen. 50:18-20 -
And his brothers also went and fell down before him and said, We are here as your servants.
And Joseph said to them, Do not be afraid, for am I in the place of God?
Even though you intended evil against me, God intended it for good, to do as it is this day, to preserve alive a numerous people.

Isn't that the case throughout the Bible? What Satan can do God always exceeds in blessing.

 

[pc_76]

I read that one of the reasons God permits evil is so that he can turn it into good. But it still isn't fair all the time. I don't want to think or care what great outcome can possibly come from global annihilation of the planet or childhood cancer.

 

[oikonomia]

I read that one of the reasons God permits evil is so that he can turn it into good. But it still isn't fair all the time. I don't want to think or care what great outcome can possibly come from global annihilation of the planet or childhood cancer.

I have thought about this for many years.
While I still am not assured I can give an answer, I have come to some conclusions, I think.

If there is free will perhaps it is unavoidable that the possibility of evil doing / evil happening would occur.

I think God in His foreknowledge and limitless wisdom knew before creation of anything that if He created beings
with a free will, evil could happen.

At this point I believe this. He created then a being, the wisest, smartest, most beautiful, and most close to God, the Daystar [Lucifer - Latin].
And in time this being became the great resevior into which all potential evil would be collected.
The virtually perfect created being who became Satan acted as a great repository into which ALL evil would be gathered.

Satan became a grand repository under whom all potential evil doing / happening would be subsummed.

Let me stop there before I go on.
Your thoughts on that theory?

 

[CoreyD]

This is a pretty common moral argument I hear from Christians that God's reason for why evil or bad things happen is ultimately good. But why?

I think you are saying that persons say God allows evil, for the ultimate good, and you would like to know why that would be good?
Please correct me, if I am mistaken. I don't want to misunderstand you.

I just think good is good and bad is bad.

I totally agree with you there.

What would you think if man's own law explained that heinous things like murder and child abuse for example, was ultimately good while simultaneously denouncing it as wrong?

That would be terrible, but I don't think that is equivalent to what persons say God has done.
God does not consider good as bad, as he says in Isaiah 5:20.
In fact, the Bible says God hates what is bad, and loves justice.

This is just a type of argument I can't accept.

That's good. I'm with you on that.

How could people condemn something and in same breath believe such is ultimately justified? Sounds like a slippery slope argument too.

God certainly does not think injustice is justified... at least from the Bible's perspective.
The Bible says God wants to end the injustice, and suffering. In fact, it says there, he promises to end it very soon. Isaiah 9:7

 

[CoreyD]

Does this mean our Father engineers evil to accomplish good ?

I think of an engineer as someone who builds or designs something.
So, God would not have engineered evil, but allowed it, after it was engineered.

It would be like a surgeon who allows a disease to continue, until the stage where it can be treated. However, the surgeon did not create the disease.

 

[CoreyD]

I have thought about this for many years.
While I still am not assured I can give an answer, I have come to some conclusions, I think.

If there is free will perhaps it is unavoidable that the possibility of evil doing / evil happening would occur.

I think God in His foreknowledge and limitless wisdom knew before creation of anything that if He created beings
with a free will, evil could happen.

At this point I believe this. He created then a being, the wisest, smartest, most beautiful, and most close to God, the Daystar [Lucifer - Latin].
And in time this being became the great resevior into which all potential evil would be collected.
The virtually perfect created being who became Satan acted as a great repository into which ALL evil would be gathered.

Satan became a grand repository under whom all potential evil doing / happening would be subsummed.

Let me stop there before I go on.
Your thoughts on that theory?

I know this was not directed to me, but I just want to say, your thinking makes sense.

 

[oikonomia]

I know this was not directed to me, but I just want to say, your thinking makes sense.

It does appear that God uses Satan as horrible as he is.
He has used him to sweep all rebellion, revolt, disobedience, unbelief, etc. under Satan's "jurisdiction" so to speak.
Rather than forever deal with rebels one by one, God has collected all contrarians to His will under one leader.

Now here is the thing which amazes me very much.
Of God tells us of a new heaven and new earth in which only righteousness lives,
this appears to mean all rebellion has been gotten out of everyone's system.

I mean ALL who would not be saved follow Satan into eternal perdition.
But the rest. it seems to me, forever never repeat that error out of their free wills.
That should mean God has wisely eliminated the desire of any being ever again to go against His will.

A passage now comes to me that perhaps may support this kind of understanding.

First Cor. 15:24-28 -

Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.

Death, the last enemy, is being abolished. For He has subjected all things under His feet.

But when He says that all things are subjected, it is evident that all things are except Him who has subjected all things to Him. And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

 

[jayem]

It would be like a surgeon who allows a disease to continue, until the stage where it can be treated. However, the surgeon did not create the disease.

No offense meant, bur that’s a most peculiar analogy. I was a health care provider for 40+ years. I can’t imagine a physician allowing appendicitis, or kidney stones, or an infected gall bladder, or a malignant tumor to progress before performing surgery. A very ill patient will need diagnostic imaging. And possibly fluids, antibiotics, and blood, plasma, or protein replacement before an operation. But only for a few days at most. The sooner any serious illness is treated, the better the outcome.

 

[CoreyD]

It does appear that God uses Satan as horrible as he is.
He has used him to sweep all rebellion, revolt, disobedience, unbelief, etc. under Satan's "jurisdiction" so to speak.
Rather than forever deal with rebels one by one, God has collected all contrarians to His will under one leader.

I understand what you are saying, I think. You see to be a deep person.
You are saying, that since Satan - the opposer of good - is around, Satan becomes the means by which all who would rebel, will be collected, or joined together, both in spirit, and mind.
Am I correct?

Now here is the thing which amazes me very much.
Of God tells us of a new heaven and new earth in which only righteousness lives,
this appears to mean all rebellion has been gotten out of everyone's system.

Interesting. I never looked at it that way.
So, in other words, those who are cleaned - that is, refined by God, because of submitting to his way, become perfected into God's way - eventually, that is.
That's something I can agree with.

I mean ALL who would not be saved follow Satan into eternal perdition.
But the rest. it seems to me, forever never repeat that error out of their free wills.
That should mean God has wisely eliminated the desire of any being ever again to go against His will.

Wow. You are deep.
Sounds like you don't only read, but you do a lot of meditation.
How often are you reading the Bible?

A passage now comes to me that perhaps may support this kind of understanding.

First Cor. 15:24-28 -

Then the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father, once He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
For He must reign until God puts all His enemies under His feet.

Death, the last enemy, is being abolished. For He has subjected all things under His feet.

But when He says that all things are subjected, it is evident that all things are except Him who has subjected all things to Him. And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to Him who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

That is one of my favorite scriptures.
It really highlights how the new world will be, in which righteousness is to dwell - no more death. Everyone living perfectly, in one spirit with God.
It helps me understand that God originally purposed that the entire universe be filled with perfection - both earthly and heavenly., as mentioned at Ephesians 1:10

regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.​

Adam had the privilege of reaching that level, but sadly, he threw it away, and joined the rebel.

I really enjoy talking to persons like you, who go beyond the superficial.

 

[jayem]

This is a pretty common moral argument I hear from Christians that God's reason for why evil or bad things happen is ultimately good. But why? I just think good is good and bad is bad. What would you think if man's own law explained that heinous things like murder and child abuse for example, was ultimately good while simultaneously denouncing it as wrong?

This is just a type of argument I can't accept. How could people condemn something and in same breath believe such is ultimately justified? Sounds like a slippery slope argument too.

Absolutely correct. What was God’s point in allowing nearly 4,000 people to die in the 9/11 Twin Towers and Pentagon attacks? Sure, Bin Laden was taken down, and Al Qaeda is now mostly a non-entity. (Though it wants to regroup.) But now, we do have a new One World Trade Center, a very cool subway/transportation hub, and 2 reflecting pools where the Twin Towers stood. Is that enough good to make up for the terrorist attack?

I’d also like to know what good results from our mass shooting epidemic. Like the 19 students and 2 teachers who were killed in last year’s TX school massacre. So far, has anything beneficial come out of this tragedy?

 

[CoreyD]

No offense meant, bur that’s a most peculiar analogy. I was a health care provider for 40+ years. I can’t imagine a physician allowing appendicitis, or kidney stones, or an infected gall bladder, or a malignant tumor to progress before performing surgery. A very ill patient will need diagnostic imaging. And possibly fluids, antibiotics, and blood, plasma, or protein replacement before an operation. But only for a few days at most. The sooner any serious illness is treated, the better the outcome.

No offense taken.
Thank you for addressing what you consider to be flawed, and sharing you expertise. I appreciate that.

I'm sorry to have given the impression that nothing is done. I'm not saying nothing is done (The Bible shows God is definitely doing a lot), but rather, the disease may be allowed to continue until the stage where it can be "fixed entirely".

I was thinking of that bowel infection babies get, which requires waiting until after birth, to actually "fix" it. In the meantime there are only certain actions that can be taken.
I forgot the name of it, and I did not save the web page.

There are others though.
The cancer waiting game: When the recommended treatment is nothing
At the time, this approach of delaying treatment for certain slow-growing cancers - termed “watch and wait,” or active surveillance - was a bit outside the norm for prostate cancer, Roosevelt said. But for certain tumor types, prostate cancer included, researchers are realizing that early treatment may not change patients’ chances of survival and are recommending a more hands-off approach to cancer management.

Thyroid Eye Disease

There are 2 phases of [Thyroid Eye Disease]: an active phase and an inactive phase.​

​

Active phase treatments​

The goal of treatment in the active phase is to reduce inflammation.​

​

Signs that the active phase has ended​

Only a TED specialist can know which phase you are in, as well as the best treatment for you.​

​

Inactive phase treatments​

Your doctor will wait until the inactive phase to perform surgery, if needed. ...these are done to help you gain back function (vision) or to address the physical changes in your face.​

So, if we use TED for example, which seems to be perfect for my illustration.
There is a disease.
The surgeon knows the best time to remove or repair the damage done.
In the meantime, the surgeon administers the necessary treatment, which only reduces the worst case scenario.

The Bible demonstrates that is what is occurring, in that the disease has arisen. God administers the necessary treatment in the stages of that disease. The final stage of the disease, is where God removes the disease - performs surgery, and repairs any damage.

There is a scripture that comes to mind, which supports what @oikonomia said in part.
Genesis 15:16

Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the wrongdoing of the Amorite is not yet complete.”​

Or, as another translation puts it - the iniquity of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.​

In other words, the disease has not reached the stage for God to perform the surgery.
Psalms 92:7

When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:​

Thanks very much for your input.

 

[CoreyD]

Absolutely correct. What was God’s point in allowing nearly 4,000 people to die in the 9/11 Twin Towers and Pentagon attacks?

That is a very good question, and understandably, many wonder, not only about that, but Covid19 took 6,898,964 lives, and is still taking lives, last I heard.
The number of those who died during Nazi wartime and the Holocaust, are estimated to be 17,100,000.
World Wars 1 ad 2 resulted in an estimate of 120,000,000 lives lost.
The list goes on.

Some persons actually have concluded that God either does not care, or does not exist.
Why has God allowed so much suffering, they ask.
Millions have found a satisfying answer to that question.
I can share it with you, if you like.

Sure, Bin Laden was taken down, and Al Qaeda is now mostly a non-entity. (Though it wants to regroup.) But now, we do have a new One World Trade Center, a very cool subway/transportation hub, and 2 reflecting pools where the Twin Towers stood. Is that enough good to make up for the terrorist attack?

I’d also like to know what good results from our mass shooting epidemic. Like the 19 students and 2 teachers who were killed in last year’s TX school massacre. So far, has anything beneficial come out of this tragedy?

There are no good results that I can see, from man's rebellion against God, and it seems we agree that there are no good results from man's domination of man.