Why is Evolution feared by many Christians?

raphael_aa · Apr 2, 2005

KeithB said:
...and what if God does return and everything He stated through His Word is true? There would be significant consequences involved.

If you're right, I merely die and allow you all to naturally evolve...
If I'm right, God was revealing Himself through His creation and Jesus and He does have a future plan...

We call that a false dichotomy. Many christians (myself included) have no problem with evolution. Our view of God is more subtle and imo elegant. I believe that purpose does indeed exist and I also believe the cosmos does reveal things about the character of God.

You also quote a version of Pascal's wager which I consider a very weak argument. It basically is of the form: 'I really want X to be true. Therefore I will believe X. If I'm wrong its no big deal.' The trouble with this is that denies any matching of belief to reality. Christians need to be concerned with the truth wherever that journey may lead them.

Risen from the Dust · Apr 2, 2005

raphael_aa said:
So you're suggesting that in His pre-incarnate form, Jesus was still incarnate in a sense with a physical body of some sort?

No. I'm suggesting that the Second Person of the Trinity appeared many times as the "Angel of the Lord" prior to his Incarnation -- a form which could (like the angels themselves) touch, eat, and lash out if necessary.

This is pretty radical christology.

Actually, it's not at all radical.

Look up "theophany" and research the concept of the "Angel of the Lord".

A theophany is a manifestation of God in visible and bodily form before the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The theophanies are chiefly appearances of the angel of the LORD, who is clearly distinct from angelic beings.

They are actual occurrences, not imaginary, not hallucinatory experiences. They take place in historical settings initiated only by God.

Many Christians believe that Christ in a theophany (not the Father) appeared to the Patriarchs and Prophets within the Hebrew Scriptures. In fact, the early church was primarilly concerned with "finding" Christ's appearances within the Hebrew Scriptures.

They believe it was Christ in a theophany (not the Father) that walked amongst the Garden of Eden.

They believe it was Christ in a theophany (not the Father) that met with Abraham and sat down to eat with him.

They believe it was Christ in a theophany (not the father) who was the fourth person like a "son of God" standing with the three friends of Daniel in the fiery furnace.

Furthermore this is not a singular teaching to any particular demonination. It cover a broads consensus within both Catholic and Protestant denominations.

If interested, you can find more information on this topic here.

http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/gen16v7.html

Have a good day.

GoSeminoles! · Apr 2, 2005

KeithB said:
...and what if God does return and everything He stated through His Word is true?

Then I would ask him why he saw fit to lie to us. Perhaps God and Satan are the same being. Sure would explain Jehovah's bipolar behavior in the Bible.

KeithB · Apr 2, 2005

raphael_aa said:
We call that a false dichotomy. Many christians (myself included) have no problem with evolution. Our view of God is more subtle and imo elegant. I believe that purpose does indeed exist and I also believe the cosmos does reveal things about the character of God.

What role does your god play in creation?

raphael_aa said:
You also quote a version of Pascal's wager which I consider a very weak argument. It basically is of the form: 'I really want X to be true. Therefore I will believe X. If I'm wrong its no big deal.' The trouble with this is that denies any matching of belief to reality. Christians need to be concerned with the truth wherever that journey may lead them.

It's not about my belief, but the relative consequences of each case.

Sir_AxillaryRain · Apr 2, 2005

Christians fear evolution? Why would a christian fear evolution?
Evolution is not real. God created the universe, this Earth and Us.
A man saw many of the same type of birds, he saw that they all had a different thype of beek and thus made the 'Theory' of Evolution.
LOL i mean evolution is not even Science. it is a Religion. Science is study based on Facts. Evolution has no Facts. No-one was there when the "Big Bang" happened. No-one was there when Man "evolved" from apes. LOL
I mean ya i Belive in the "Big Bang". I just think they have it happening at the wrong point in time. Revelations/Last Days there wil be a "Big Bang". And as we all know it will not create anything. ? how in the world? if i take some Nails, some 2x4 pieces of wood and 'Blow' them up. I will not get a Fence in my yard. LOL. People! have u ever heard of Entropy

God told man that he created the Universe and man wrote it down.(Genesis)
No on saw it. It is not science. it is a Religion. U have the choice. u must decide. And as for me? well God gave me Comon...or well UnComon sense.
I choose God!

Vastavus · Apr 2, 2005

...and this is scientific proof?? That a couple of intelligent beings established an ideal environment with specific chemicals (and specifically left out certain items such as free oxygen)

First of all, the established the same enviroment that existed during the early days of earth. Also, oxegen was only formed through photosynthesus. This was before there were any plants to do this.

and this doesn't account for the enourmous amount of other complex items required for life such as fats, carbs, DNA, RNA, etc. -- nice bunch of tar though.

It accouts for carbs DNA, and RNA, (see original post), and I don't think that single celled organisms have very many fat cells.

Yet, this "showed how life can form from non-life."

Indeed it does.

Sir_AxillaryRain · Apr 2, 2005

GoSeminoles! said:
Then I would ask him why he saw fit to lie to us. Perhaps God and Satan are the same being. Sure would explain Jehovah's bipolar behavior in the Bible.

LOL if/when God does come back and everything in his Word is revealed as Truth. How could he lie to us? if it is true...how is it a lie. Bipolar behavior? i will admit to u that you probly have read more of the Bible than i have. but the Bible does not contradict itself. nor is there any bipolar behavior. I know my words will not show u what u want to see or know. But... this is not my time to preach to you. lol ill do it in a different thread. someother time. Have a... fun life.

Vastavus · Apr 2, 2005

Christians fear evolution? Why would a christian fear evolution?
Evolution is not real. God created the universe, this Earth and Us.
A man saw many of the same type of birds, he saw that they all had a different thype of beek and thus made the 'Theory' of Evolution.
LOL i mean evolution is not even Science. it is a Religion. Science is study based on Facts. Evolution has no Facts. No-one was there when the "Big Bang" happened. No-one was there when Man "evolved" from apes. LOL
I mean ya i Belive in the "Big Bang". I just think they have it happening at the wrong point in time. Revelations/Last Days there wil be a "Big Bang". And as we all know it will not create anything. ? how in the world? if i take some Nails, some 2x4 pieces of wood and 'Blow' them up. I will not get a Fence in my yard. LOL. People! have u ever heard of Entropy

God told man that he created the Universe and man wrote it down.(Genesis)
No on saw it. It is not science. it is a Religion. U have the choice. u must decide. And as for me? well God gave me Comon...or well UnComon sense.
I choose God!

*****, best post ever!

I seriously hope you were joking though. If not, the lies and logical fallicies in this post are so heavily concentrated that they might corrode away my monitor.

Sir_AxillaryRain · Apr 2, 2005

no i was not

Vastavus · Apr 2, 2005

but the Bible does not contradict itself.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_book.html

Vastavus · Apr 2, 2005

no i was not

Forget evolution, Christians should fear other Christians.

KeithB · Apr 2, 2005

Vastavus said:
First of all, the established the same enviroment that existed during the early days of earth. Also, oxegen was only formed through photosynthesus. This was before there were any plants to do this.

It accouts for carbs DNA, and RNA, (see original post), and I don't think that single celled organisms have very many fat cells.

Indeed it does.

wow...you're the 1st evolutionist I've met who's tried to take the Miller experiment this far, but it's hard to counter when you won't recognize the facts.

Again I'll reparaphrase an earlier statement: I'll give Miller a whole bunch of non-alive flies. Can he produce any life with it? Nope -- shock it all you want.

Sir_AxillaryRain · Apr 2, 2005

LOL u r right many of the So-Called Christians now days are worse than the Athiest. Christians kill their wounded. But i am trying to hlp my fellow christians and all others.

Vastavus · Apr 2, 2005

wow...you're the 1st evolutionist I've met who's tried to take the Miller experiment this far, but it's hard to counter when you won't recognize the facts.

Which facts? I will reconize them when you give them to me.

I'll give Miller a whole bunch of flies. Can he produce any life with it? Nope -- shock it all you want.

I don't think I understand what you are asking.

KeithB · Apr 2, 2005

Vastavus said:
Which facts? I will reconize them when you give them to me.

Check your experiment out -- all he created were some amino acids and they were both right and left handed which would have combined and been useless. No RNA or DNA were created. -- to put it kindly, he created some tar -- far from life.

Vastavus said:
I don't think I understand what you are asking.

The system doesn't allow the "d" word -- I replaced with "non-alive"
Give Miller a bunch of squished non-alive fly material and he still wouldn't have been able to create life.

Vastavus · Apr 2, 2005

Check your experiment out -- all he created were some amino acids and they were both right and left handed which would have combined and been useless. No RNA or DNA were created. -- to put it kindly, he created some tar -- far from life.

He only created the building blocks of DNA and RNA, and this was in subsequent experiments. Sorry I misread my book. Thanks for setting me right.

The system doesn't allow the "d" word -- I replaced with "non-alive"
Give Miller a bunch of squished non-alive fly material and he still wouldn't have been able to create life.

I don't see why this is relevant, what he was trying to prove was that amino acids could be created in Early-Earth conditions, and at the end of one week, Miller observed that as much as 10-15% of the carbon was now in the form of organic compounds. Two percent of the carbon had formed some of the amino acids which are used to make proteins. Perhaps most importantly, Miller's experiment showed that organic compounds such as amino acids, which are essential to cellular life, could be made easily under the conditions that scientists believed to be present on the early earth.

On a side note, If you gave him decaying fly material he wouldn't have to have created life, bacteria would already be growing on the fly carcass.

KeithB · Apr 2, 2005

Vastavus said:
He only created the building blocks of DNA and RNA, and this was in subsequent experiments. Sorry I misread my book. Thanks for setting me right.

I don't see why this is relevant, what he was trying to prove was that amino acids could be created in Early-Earth conditions, and at the end of one week, Miller observed that as much as 10-15% of the carbon was now in the form of organic compounds. Two percent of the carbon had formed some of the amino acids which are used to make proteins. Perhaps most importantly, Miller's experiment showed that organic compounds such as amino acids, which are essential to cellular life, could be made easily under the conditions that scientists believed to be present on the early earth.

On a side note, If you gave him decaying fly material he wouldn't have to have created life, bacteria would already be growing on the fly carcass.

wow...that's the most optimistic interpretation of Miller's experiment I've ever heard. How come the subsequent experiments were never published or talked about in text books? He made 1 small building block which had both right and left handed forms -- life has only left handed amino acids.

Yes, the bacteria would be there, but it didn't just come to life. It was there before the or from the air. Quite the science you all teach.

KeithB · Apr 2, 2005

Vastavus said:
In this matter scientists have show how life can form from non-life.

This is why my questions were relevant. Your own statement earlier tried to say that Miller showed how life can form from non-life.

Miller did not create any life...nor could he. (I guess time and chance were smarter than Dr Miller.)

Vastavus · Apr 2, 2005

wow...that's the most optimistic interpretation of Miller's experiment I've ever heard. How come the subsequent experiments were never published or talked about in text books? He made 1 small building block which had both right and left handed forms -- life has only left handed amino acids.

http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/Exobiology/miller.html

The article is from Duke University, and it also points out flaws in the experiment. I realize that he didn't create life, but the experiment showed how amino acids could be created in the early atmosphere.

This textbook I have in front of me presents it like he created life in a closed system at the lab, which I find is obviously not true the more I research the subject. I'm sorry that I didn't find a second source, thanks for setting me staight.

Yes, the bacteria would be there, but it didn't just come to life. It was there before the or from the air. Quite the science you all teach.

I was just being a smart-butt.

Vastavus · Apr 2, 2005

This is why my questions were relevant. Your own statement earlier tried to say that Miller showed how life can form from non-life.

Sorry, I was too general. His experiments only showed how amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) could form in the early atmosphere. I was misinformed, thanks for helping me find the truth.

Why is Evolution feared by many Christians?

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