Why I'm Orthodox . . . and why others may want to be too.

[CaDan]

Princeton university english definition. That work or you want more?

That appears to be the definition of "fornication". Or am I mistaken?

Do you really want to try to pull the traslation card on a greek orthodox? Seriously?

Heavens no!

I just thought it would be helpful to get a serious definition of porneia. All I have is Thayer's Lexicon here.

 

[eoe]

The Orthodox Church recognizes the sanctity of marriage and sees it as a life-long commitment. However, there are certain circumstances in which it becomes evident that there is no love or commitment in a relationship.

While the Church stands opposed to divorce, the Church, in its concern for the salvation of its people, does permit divorced individuals to marry a second and even a third time.

The Order of the Second or Third Marriage is somewhat different than that celebrated as a first marriage and it bears a penitential character. Second or third marriages are performed by "economy" -- that is, out of concern for the spiritual well being of the parties involved and as an exception to the rule, so to speak.

So - in like 2 minues of looking I find this. I want to point out something:

However, there are certain circumstances in which it becomes evident that there is no love or commitment in a relationship.

Based on this why can we not just say that the people were never really married? The marriage just didn't "take". They were fornicating but we can nullify it and let them get married again!
It is semantics - wordgames and NTS. This is the same game that protestants play with "Once saved always saved and can't fall away". Semantics. Marriage has no love or commitmment? Marriage must not have ever been there.

Off to get more....

 

[Debi1967]

And the merry go round starts up again and everyone jumps on for the ride ........

We go round and round with

Wait I am Catholic I am better, listen to me

Hey wait, I am Orthodox, I am better listent to me!

NO! I am Catholic listen to me

NO! I am Orthodox listen to me

and it DRONES on and on and the merry go round attentend is starting to get bored and REALLY tired because he is dizzy already .....

No better yet I feel like I am at a tennis match watching the ball being lobbed back and forth across the court with the score always coming up nothing for either side

BUT ESPECIALLY CHRIST

When does He get to score one here?????????????

AHHHHHHH such Christian Love we have for one another it does the Body Good I tell you ..... Only I see none of it being displyed here IMHO

 

[Benedicta00]

Because you based your argument on fornication being different from adultery. That is how it totally contradicts you.

No, I base it on what it means and your definition supports it.

I said just what you say it means. It means non marital sex between two who are not married or between two who are not married to each other- so Jesus said these marriages can be put away. Both, the adulterous where you are married to someone else's souse or when you are not lawfully married by God like the marriage Paul describes.

It supports Catholicism in light of Paul and Jesus’ words and I have no idea how in the world it supports Orthodoxy because no one wants to tell me.

 

[rushingwind62]

I tjink it is pretty sad when people can't just end something....think about this----a sinner comes in here to see what christian forums is all about and say this person likes theology so he comes to this thread. Sees all the arguing and bickering going on and christian accusing one another and saying my faith is the only way....my church is right and walks away from God and never enters anything with a christian name again...TIME TO GROW UP PEOPLE AND ACT LIKE MATURE CHRISTIANS....time to put away childish things and bickerings!

 

[Benedicta00]

And the merry go round starts up again and everyone jumps on for the ride ........

We go round and round with

Wait I am Catholic I am better, listen to me

Hey wait, I am Orthodox, I am better listent to me!

NO! I am Catholic listen to me

NO! I am Orthodox listen to me

and it DRONES on and on and the merry go round attentend is starting to get bored and REALLY tired because he is dizzy already .....

No better yet I feel like I am at a tennis match watching the ball being lobbed back and forth across the court with the score always coming up nothing for either side

BUT ESPECIALLY CHRIST

When does He get to score one here?????????????

AHHHHHHH such Christian Love we have for one another it does the Body Good I tell you ..... Only I see none of it being displyed here IMHO

Debbi, In all honestly- all me and Theresa are asking is where can what they say be found in the bible and they don’t want to tell us.

maybe you can shed some light on the eastern marriage deal.

 

[eoe]

HERE WE GO:

The Law On Divorce, 5:31-32

"It hath been said, 'Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement.' But I say unto you that whosoever shall put away his wife, saying for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery; and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced cometh of evil."

​

Jewish men at the beginning of the Christian era had the right to divorce their wives and marry again. Jesus Christ forbids divorce save for the cause of fornication. The Eastern Orthodox Church permits divorce only on the grounds of adultery and reasons such as insanity, abandonment and changing of faith. Under these conditions, second and third marriages are permitted in the Orthodox Church.

So - There you have the three reasons that divorce is granted and someone would have the right to remarry.

Would the RC church allow someone an annulment / marriage in these cases?

• Adultery
• Insanity
• Abandonment
• Changing the faith

 

[eoe]

TIME TO GROW UP PEOPLE AND ACT LIKE MATURE CHRISTIANS....time to put away childish things and bickerings!

I agree. I also tried to do this over and over again (search my earlier posts here and read them). I am not going to allow someone to misrepresent my faith. That is what is happening here.

 

[Debi1967]

Debbi, In all honestly- all me and Theresa are asking is where can what they say be found in the bible and they don’t want to tell us.

maybe you can shed some light on the eastern marriage deal.

I will as soon as I get back I have to run for a couple of hours but there are things I have to dispute with them too as far as their ideas too..... they forget I am Eastern Catholic

 

[Benedicta00]

So - in like 2 minues of looking I find this. I want to point out something:



Based on this why can we not just say that the people were never really married? The marriage just didn't "take". They were fornicating but we can nullify it and let them get married again!
It is semantics - wordgames and NTS. This is the same game that protestants play with "Once saved always saved and can't fall away". Semantics. Marriage has no love or commitmment? Marriage must not have ever been there.

Off to get more....

Wait, when are we ever allowed to stop being committed and stop loving our spouse? You can not be let out of marriage- this is exactly what Jesus was talking about. Because of the hardness of heart you allow divorce (when someone just stops being committed) and that is wrong- the only time it is ‘allowed’ is when there is fornication involved and that does not exclusively mean when a spouse cheats on you it means when the marriage was not God joined.

 

[Benedicta00]

HERE WE GO:



So - There you have the three reasons that divorce is granted and someone would have the right to remarry.

Would the RC church allow someone an annulment / marriage in these cases?

• Adultery
• Insanity
• Abandonment
• Changing the faith

Now where is this in the bible or done by the early church?

 

[Benedicta00]

Oh and no- the Catholic Church does not say in of itself across the board these are reasons and insanity?? What happened to in sickness and in heath? But Y'all don’t take vows… so okay.

 

[ufonium2]

So here's the text of the Ukrainian Catholic wedding ceremony (someone tell me if this is a vagante group, but it looked real to me) and it's the same (vowless) ceremony used in the Orthodox Church.

http://www.archeparchy.ca/liturgical/mysteries/crowning.htm

 

[eoe]

Where does Jesus say it is ok to swear a vow? HUH? Think I should make a hundred or so posts blasting the RC for allowing a vow?

Now where is this in the bible or done by the early church?

Where is

Limbo?
Purgatory?
Mary as co-mediatrix/redemptrix?

Where is alot of RC doctrine?

Hello kettle? Yeah this is pot. Got something to tell you...

 

[Benedicta00]

Where does Jesus say it is ok to swear a vow? HUH? Think I should make a hundred or so posts blasting the RC for allowing a vow?

Since when are promises we make before God swearing? We promise before God (not swear to) to love, honor and obey until death due us part- Read Tobit. God then honors the promise we make before him to one another and what he joins we not 10 years later come back and do away with. God is the witness and he will honor what we freely promise to do. See Tobit. Since when are promises to be broken?

Hello kettle? Yeah this is pot. Got something to tell you...

I don't think so.. you would do well not being nasty with me.

Where is

Limbo?

Not doctrine.

Purgatory?

Macabees, Corinthians.

Mary as co-mediatrix/redemptrix?

Not a doctrine.

Where is alot of RC doctrine?

In the bible and in tradition.

 

[eoe]

the only time it is ‘allowed’ is when there is fornication involved and that does not exclusively mean when a spouse cheats on you it means when the marriage was not God joined.

No. That is not what fornication means. Fornication is sex outside of marriage.

What you are saying is that the Roman Catholic Church can grant an annullment anytime that it determines that there was never a marriage to begin with.

Really Father - he never wanted to marry me! After all he never told me that he was crazy! That is fraud!

No Father - he didn't really love me! HE committed fornication! There was no marriage!

No Father - he didn't ever love me! If he ever loved me he would not have abandoned me!

No Father - She never really married me if she had she would not have converted to Islam.

Roman Catholic people get divorced DAILY in the courts of the US. You think they remain celebate? They can't remarry in the RC church so what do they do? They get married by a protestant minister and go about thier life.

That is a better solution?

SEMANTICS - only we don't make up a bunch of crap about the marriage never existing. We call it like it is - a divorce - a massive failure. Only under certain conditions is one person allowed to remarry.
You present it as if it were a casual thing. It is not.

 

[Polycarp1]

I found "So what do you do, just stand there" to be highly offensive. It's the sort of insult one expects from a legalistic fundamentalist, not from members of churches that follow Holy Tradition and adhere to a sacramentalist view.

Shelb5, why is it that you cannot confirm? You're clearly a member of the Catholic Church, in whom the Holy Spirit resides. The answer, of course, is that you don't have the charism of holy orders, that you have not been called to the clergy. That doesn't make you a lesser person, it merely means you're not equipped for that particular work.

Likewise, those who have been called to a celibate life are given the charism of celibacy, the ability to withstand the temptation to sexual activity in order to carry out a ministry which requires them to be celibate. Monks, sisters in religious orders, Roman Rite priests, etc. have, or should have, this charism.

The charism of celibacy is distinct from the virtue of chastity, which is simply the restraining of sexual urges outside the appropriate place to exercise them.

Now, what I'm hearing here is that, after prayer and discernment, a bishop, a validly consecrated bishop in holy orders, entitled to make such pronouncements by the standards of all Apostolic Tradition churches, makes the determination that a given widow/widower or divorcé(e) may be dispensed from the need to live celibately and be entitled to remarry.

There's a real tendency in all our churches to second-guess our bishops, who are called to their duties by the Holy Spirit, in their job of discernment and the balancing of canon law and mercy under the grace of God. A bishop who makes a ruling that is not in accord with one's legalistic reading of canon law is obviously sinning. And that to me is a greater offense than anything the bishop may be doing. We are all pledged to obedience to the valid rulings of our bishops, Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican alike. It's their job to discern God's will in individual cases. It's not yours or mine.

 

[Joykins]

So here's the text of the Ukrainian Catholic wedding ceremony (someone tell me if this is a vagante group, but it looked real to me) and it's the same (vowless) ceremony used in the Orthodox Church.

http://www.archeparchy.ca/liturgical/mysteries/crowning.htm

From that page:

Marriage Vows​

​

​

I, N., take you, N., to be my wife (husband),
and promise that in marriage I will love you,
be true to you and honour you
and be faithful to you
all the days of my life:
so help me God,
one in the Holy Trinity
and all the saints.
​

​

​

The priest looses their hands and says, while blessing them:

Priest: What God has united, man must not separate.

I did want to see what a vowless ceremony looked like and am still wondering as much as ever what it's like

 

[JimfromOhio]

We are reaching 1,000th post !!!

 

[Benedicta00]

No. That is not what fornication means. Fornication is sex outside of marriage.

Exactly.

What you are saying is that the Roman Catholic Church can grant an annullment anytime that it determines that there was never a marriage to begin with.

That is all she can do, she can not take one that is valid and disslove it.

Really Father - he never wanted to marry me! After all he never told me that he was crazy! That is fraud!

Things have to been seen as they are, in some cases maybe insanity when the other had no clue and the person was not entering right mind to commit to marriage- but if you are married for 20 years and your spouse loses his mind, in of itself- you are NOT free to walk.

This is what the Church will do, she will look at the union, she will not just say repent and it is done with. Since when does penance remove bonds?

No Father - he didn't really love me! HE committed fornication! There was no marriage!

A pattern of unfaithfulness maybe- but again it needs to be examined, to see if weakness and true sorry for betrayal was there or if the person never intended on being faithful... where is you mercy now? Forgiven one another in marriage? It's only for when you want to walk out?

No Father - he didn't ever love me! If he ever loved me he would not have abandoned me!

A spouse is never held accountable for when the person abandons them but again- you have to examine the union- you can not just say well he left so that = I'm off the hook for my promise.

No Father - She never really married me if she had she would not have converted to Islam.

Again- the Church will look to see if that conversion to Islam made it impossible for the other to be free to practice their own faith- you have to LOOK at the union.

Roman Catholic people get divorced DAILY in the courts of the US. You think they remain celebate? They can't remarry in the RC church so what do they do? They get married by a protestant minister and go about thier life.

And they commit adultery when they do.

That is a better solution?

Yes obedience to mother Church. Making sure you marry the right person.

SEMANTICS - only we don't make up a bunch of crap about the marriage never existing. We call it like it is - a divorce - a massive failure. Only under certain conditions is one person allowed to remarry.
You present it as if it were a casual thing. It is not.

Really? Jesus never said we can divorce. Paul and Jesus said the only marriage that can be put away are the ones that never was… your view simply contradicts the bible. And please watch how to talk to me.