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Why ID is logically incoherant.

PeterMaclellan

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Lets ignore all connections to creationism for a second, as one need not invoke them to dismiss ID. At it's core the concept of Intelligent Design is three logical fallacies rolled into one.

Logical Fallacy number 1: Appeal to Incredulity

It's core is the idea of irreducible complexity, which is an example of the fallacy known as appeal to incredulity. Essentially it states that
life is too complex to have come about by accident, therefore there must be intelligence behind the design. Ignore the fact that evolutionists have detailed explanations of how many of these complex systems come about, for the argument itself is inherently flawed. You cannot 'know' that something is too complex to have come about by accident, you can only believe something is too complex to have come about by accident. Intelligent Design proponents admit that they do not know how the process of natural selection and evolution could be responsible for the complexity of life, however they take it a step further which is where the fallacy occurs. They do not simply state "I don't know how this happened" they state "I know evolution could NOT have accomplished this".

What they don't understand is that simply because you cannot understand something, doesn't make it false, I personally do not understand quantum physics, that doesn't necessarily mean all quantum physicists are just pulling their theories out of thin air. You need some positive evidence beyond personal incredulity to make the leap from complexity to irreducible complexity.

Logical Fallacy number 2: False Dichotomy

A false dichotomy is when you assume there are only two possible answers to a given question. ID proponents assume that if evolution is false, then ID must be true. They are attempting to prove their argument by disproving something else. What ID proponents need to understand is that even if they were successful in utterly disproving evolution, it would not mean ID is correct. It could just as easily be a third option we haven't come up with, which leads us to our last fallacy

Logical Fallacy number 3: Negative Proof

Negative evidence for Evolution is NOT positive evidence for ID. It's really that simple. You can poke at evolution all you want, but in order for ID to be anything more then opinion, you need POSITIVE EVIDENCE. Evidence that suggests ID, not merely compatible with it.

ID as a theory is inherently illogical. All that ID would require in order to give it at least some semblance of legitimacy is a piece of evidence that suggests, rather then is compatible with it's hypothesis. If any ID proponents think there is, I invite them to present it.
 

milkyway

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The late, great Richard Feynman can summarise the above:

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."
 
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Inan3

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Logical Fallacy #4: Your logic
 
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PeterMaclellan

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Logical Fallacy #4: Your logic

I guess it would be too much to hope that you will actually elaborate on how my logic is faulty. Are you even capable of putting together an argument? Simply stating I'm wrong is a meaningless assertion unless you can explain yourself.
 
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flatworm

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There's another logical problem with ID, if its proponents want to pass it off as supporting their theological beliefs.

Namely, the entire thrust of ID is that it is possible to distinguish designed things from non-designed things in the universe. However, the religious underpinning of ID posit that the entire universe and everything in it is the creation of an omnipotent being - in other words, everything is designed. If everything in nature has the same designer, then it should not be possible to single out some things as designed and others as not.

Indeed, one of the reasons we can detect human design is that we know of so many things that were not man-made, making the characteristics of human design stand out.

If it were ever possible to prove the design "hypothesis", it would show that the "designer" is some kind of interloper, not the omnipotent, omniscient creator god of the Abrahamic religions.
 
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Inan3

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I'll point out the major illogical statement.


He admits that it came about by accident but offers no explanation of how it originally came about to even be an accident. No evolutionist has ever been able to answer this. Logic tells us that it had to start from something or someone. I have never seen an accident or explosion from nothing become something and neither have you or any scientist.


This is obviously a "misinterpretation" of ID/C/C beliefs and or thoughts, by yet another programmed evolutionist. I don't know any ID proponents who think like this. Creation and ID were around and believed in far before ET was ever around.

.


Once again no logic here only delusion



Delusional and obvious that it is you rather than us who would try to disprove creation rather than us disproving evolution.

Logical Fallacy number 3: Negative Proof



We have evidence it is just not the evidence you want and it will always be that way.


That's very enlightening.

Care to expand a little..?
 
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Inan3

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Let's not focus so much on the design as we do on intelligence. It was a being with intelligence that put it all together. It did not just "happen" into being. It would be illogical to believe anything else.
 
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eri

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That isn't a flaw with his logic; it's simply an argument against his statement. If you want to see something come from nothing, look up pair-production. If you want to see something happen for no reason and with no cause, look up quantum indeterminacy. If you want to see proof that quantum mechanics works, go to the hospital and ask for an MRI.


This is obviously a "misinterpretation" of ID/C/C beliefs and or thoughts, by yet another programmed evolutionist. I don't know any ID proponents who think like this. Creation and ID were around and believed in far before ET was ever around.

Actually, what he said was a very good paraphrase of what I have heard from Behe and Safarti. People use to use blood-letting and leeches to cure everything as well, but you don't see that much in hospitals now-a-days. Just because it came first doesn't mean it was any good.

Once again no logic here only delusion

Made perfect sense to me. Care to explain why it's 'delusion'?

Delusional and obvious that it is you rather than us who would try to disprove creation rather than us disproving evolution.

We don't have to disprove Creation - the way you've defined it, there's no way we could. Especially the way some posters on here define it. But we have proved evolution beyond reasonable doubt - and you have done nothing to disprove us. Or prove yourselves right, which is the main problem.

But what is delusional about saying that there might be more than two choices? Ever heard of Lysenkoism? He could have been right too.

Logical Fallacy number 3: Negative Proof
We have evidence it is just not the evidence you want and it will always be that way.

Please, provide it. I've never seen any that could stand up to actual investigation. Go ahead and get it published - you don't win the Nobel Prize by proving science right, after all. You get it by proving science wrong. And it happens every year.
 
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Risu

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The thing that I don't get it how creationists don't believe that life could have possibly come about by chance. Get a dartboard as big as your wall, and throw a billion darts at it; you're bound to hit a bullseye at least a few times, even if that bullseye is no bigger than your thumbnail.

Personally I think most creationists just aren't capable of wrapping their minds around the sheer numbers necessary to understand evolution. But I could always be wrong.
 
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Maxwell511

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Essentially it states that
life is too complex to have come about by accident.

Chemicals don't "accidentally" bond to each other. There may by no reason, is the sense of a God planning things out, but there is certainly a rhyme.

Life did not come about by accident.
 
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Maxwell511

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Life is an inevitable consequence of the existence of our universe.

That is my point in case anyone didn't get it.

ID is fundamentally "stupid" because it places one inevitable consequence above another. It does not apply the same intellectual rigour to the discussion of the existence of life as to the existence of clouds, black holes, water, etc.

We don't discussion the imaginability of millions of individual H2O particles coming together to form a nice cirrus shape, do we? I assure you the probability by "accident" and "chance" of such complex formations is very low.
 
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