Why I Think the Methodist Church Has Gone Astray

[circuitrider]

Yep - love the whole concept of holiness/sanctification as "intentional". And it's so cool that all Christians who continue to walk and grow with the Lord will eventually bump into this concept, regardless of church background or upbringing. My wife is a perfect example. Raised Southern Baptist, never hearing of the concept of sanctification or holiness, and while initially kicked back, looking at it "squinty-eyed", finally understood that this concept is what her old pastor's used to call making Christ the "lord of your life" after salvation.

Yes, one of the side effects of a certain way of reading Calvinism is that it can lead to the idea that you get saved on a certain date and then after that you don't have to do anything with your faith afterwards. The assumption is that you are spiritually complete on the day of your first profession of faith.

Wesleyan Christians would say that professing your faith is just one step along the journey of becoming what Christ wants us to be.

 

[Celticflower]

I read a book a while back on Christian Perfection and one analogy that was made was to the growth of a child. If a 2 yr old child hits all the milestones expected of a 2 yr old, he is considered a perfect 2 yr old. But if the same child at age 4 is only hitting the milestones for a 2 yr old they are no longer considered perfect. In much the same way the idea of Christian perfection is one of ongoing growth.
The book also said (rightly or wrongly I do not know) that if a man said to John Wesley that he had been saved on such and such a date, Wesley would first rejoice with him over the fact then ask "Are you still saved today?".

 

[Dave-W]

Raised Southern Baptist, never hearing of the concept of sanctification or holiness, and while initially kicked back, looking at it "squinty-eyed", finally understood that this concept is what her old pastor's used to call making Christ the "lord of your life" after salvation.

Yeah - and I have heard rumblings from some sectors of the SBA that such teaching as " making Christ the Lord of your life after salvation" amounts to legalism. They have really castigated John MacArthur for his "lordship salvation" teaching which is just that.

 

[Dave-W]

The assumption is that you are spiritually complete on the day of your first profession of faith.

Where on earth did they get THAT idea? What ever happened to being a "babe in Christ" and then growing into maturity?

 

[circuitrider]

Where on earth did they get THAT idea? What ever happened to being a "babe in Christ" and then growing into maturity?

In a word, Calvinism. If you believe that some are predestined to life and are part of the elect from the foundations of the world then you are going to be saved no matter what. So you don't have to grow or even do anything.

It is bad theology and most Baptists don't really believe it. But there are groups of Baptists that are quite Calvinist. And there is a current movement within the SBC of Calvinists who trying to lead the SBC in a more Calvinist direction.

Al Mohler the President of the Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, KY is one of those vocal Calvinists.

 

[circuitrider]

The book also said (rightly or wrongly I do not know) that if a man said to John Wesley that he had been saved on such and such a date, Wesley would first rejoice with him over the fact then ask "Are you still saved today?".

It sounds like Wesley even if he didn't say it.

I very seldom used "saved" in the past tense. If someone asked me if I'm "saved" I'll tell them I'm being saved every day.

 

[Dave-W]

In a word, Calvinism. If you believe that some are predestined to life and are part of the elect from the foundations of the world then you are going to be saved no matter what. So you don't have to grow or even do anything.

Ah - yes. A product of Total Depravity. We (even as believers) can do nothing to grow or anything.

Sheesh. The more I look into calvinism the more I am glad I am NOT one of them.

 

[Dave-W]

If someone asked me if I'm "saved" I'll tell them I'm being saved every day.

Good reply but somewhat incomplete.

NT scriptures say we "have been saved," (Romans 8:24) we are "being saved," (1 Corinthians 1:18) and that we will yet "be saved." (Romans 5:9-10) So it encompasses all; past present and future.

 

[Celticflower]

I very seldom used "saved" in the past tense. If someone asked me if I'm "saved" I'll tell them I'm being saved every day.

Me too!

 

[circuitrider]

Good reply but somewhat incomplete.

NT scriptures say we "have been saved," (Romans 8:24) we are "being saved," (1 Corinthians 1:18) and that we will yet "be saved." (Romans 5:9-10) So it encompasses all; past present and future.

Dave it depends then if they want to discuss it further. Usually when someone asks me this kind of question it is one of those folks who are hunting people for an "instant" conversion. Usually Wesleyan beliefs are so foreign to their theology that they will assume that if I don't buy into their Calvinist "once saved alway saved" mindset then I'm not a Christian.

But if they ask further I'm happy to describe what I believe the Bible means by "salvation" which is a continual grace led and filled journey with God. Salvation is a journey and a relationship and not an event.

 

[circuitrider]

As an aside to the future part of your statement, I won't say anything that claims my place in heaven is assured outside the grace of God. I do believe (and my Church teaches) that apostasy is a possibility. God never will walk away from me but I can walk away from God.

The problem is we use the same language but often mean different things. For some (and I do mean some) Calvinists being "saved" is primarily about the future and primarily about avoiding hell and punishment.

So the focus is on the past (I was saved) and on the future (I will go to heaven/won't go to hell) and not on our journey with Jesus today. Wesleyan Christianity teaches that it is how we are walking with God today that is most important and not a past we can't change or a future we can't predict.

I believe in part that is why Methodism is often a faith that believes in action when it is at its best and not sitting around waiting for the end of time or the end of our lives to know God.

 

[Dave-W]

I won't say anything that claims my place in heaven is assured outside the grace of God. I do believe (and my Church teaches) that apostasy is a possibility. God never will walk away from me but I can walk away from God.

CR - There is so much truth in that. And it is actually consistent with pre-christian Judaism. "Salvation" was back then was being in and faithful to the Mosaic covenant. Most sins had remediation (blood sacrifice) written into the Mosaic code; but there were a few that made one "cut off" from the covenant and the people. IMO it is the same under the New Covenant. We can absolutely go our own way and thus reject the sacrifice of Christ and thus lose salvation.

Since I have had friends and christian brothers that are calvinist or baptist who ascribe to the OSAS doctrine, I studied it out for myself. I kept coming back to the issue of covenant. (like marriage) Just as marriage is supposed to last forever, so is our salvation. But there are decisions and actions that can destroy a marriage if not changed.

Likewise, we are SUPPOSED to be saved forever, but can make decisions and actions that lead us away from salvation. (our actions and decisions, NOT God's) My decision was that the OSAS camp focused on what was SUPPOSED to happen, but glossed over the reality of being a fallen creature living in a fallen world where it does not always go as it is SUPPOSED to go.

I realize that is coming at the subject from a different angle but I ended up pretty much the same place as Wesleyan doctrine teaches.

OH - here is a question: Why does Romans 11 NEVER come up in the OSAS debate?

17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

 

[circuitrider]

You'll also note that the Epistle to the Hebrews is largely ignored. It has several passages that point to the possibility of apostasy.

Dale Moody who was once a prominent professor at the Southern Baptist seminary in Louisville, KY lost his job over his writings about apostasy particularly out of Hebrews.

 

[Dave-W]

Oh I have read plenty from the OSAS crowd on Hebrews - especially chapter 6. They twist it to apply to those being drawn but refusing to respond, IOW not yet true believers and therefore not "saved" as they define it.

Some even tied it back to Matthew 24:13 "He who endures to the end shall be saved;" to prove that they were never really saved in the first place.

 

[Dave-W]

Dale Moody who was once a prominent professor at the Southern Baptist seminary in Louisville, KY lost his job over his writings about apostasy particularly out of Hebrews.

Well - I guess that cuts both ways. I heard of a few Nazarene and Assembly of God pastors who were let go for teaching OSAS. The Assembly of God was really harsh on that one.

 

[JCFantasy23]

It sounds like Wesley even if he didn't say it.

I very seldom used "saved" in the past tense. If someone asked me if I'm "saved" I'll tell them I'm being saved every day.

I'm totally stealing that line.

17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.

I just looked up that verse, interesting reading. I'd like to add the next part as well as I think it applies just as strongly to the discussion: (ESV Version) - "Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. - To me this shows loss of salvation can be possible
And then next: "And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grated in, for God has the power to graft them in again." - I'd take that to mean returning to God.

Of course this is talking about a specific time for Israel, but I can see how it would apply to Christians in any time and age.

 

[Dave-W]

I just looked up that verse, interesting reading. I'd like to add the next part as well as I think it applies just as strongly to the discussion: (ESV Version) - "Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. - To me this shows loss of salvation can be possible
And then next: "And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grated in, for God has the power to graft them in again." - I'd take that to mean returning to God.
Of course this is talking about a specific time for Israel, but I can see how it would apply to Christians in any time and age.

Yes - those verses are talking specifically about Israel - Jews by birth. And that is why I did not include them. But the verses I did quote are dealing with us - gentile christians.

 

[circuitrider]

Oh I have read plenty from the OSAS crowd on Hebrews - especially chapter 6. They twist it to apply to those being drawn but refusing to respond, IOW not yet true believers and therefore not "saved" as they define it.

Some even tied it back to Matthew 24:13 "He who endures to the end shall be saved;" to prove that they were never really saved in the first place.

Yes, Hyper-Calvinism requires a lot of twisting of soteriology to make it work. For example if you ask a Hyper-Calvinist what happens if a person who has obviously been a believer quits believing their response will be that they were never saved in the first place because those who are saved endure until the end.

Rather than recognizing that it is enduring to the end that makes one saved not that being saved makes you endure until the end.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I don't disagree with you Dave on "Saved, have been saved, will be saved", but the CONTEXT today is of salvation as a singular one-time event usually as a part of some ritual; like saying the right prayer. Often there's a whole lot of emotional manipulation. Some powerful testimony accompanied with a praise and worship song while a forceful evangelists tells people to come down and 'be saved', then tells them that prayer that just uttered in the midst of an emotional moment has now forced God to let them into heaven and they've won the game that is life. It totally ignores what it is we're all about.

So I, too, avoid using "saved" in a past tense because of the context it holds.

I once met a men who was proud to "get five salvations" at an event, whatever that meant. I asked him how he connected them with local churches, and if he'd considered giving them Bibles. Even Billy Graham made sure to connect with local churches. He said "Oh, the Holy Spirit will take care of that, besides, they are saved now so it doesn't really matter".

NO NO NO NO NO. It just doesn't work like that.

Hyper-calvinism and this idea that prayer is some magic incantation that saves us is the antithesis of the New Testament.

When I'm asked "Are you saved?" my answer is always "I'm working on it". And that'll be my answer forever. Am I confident in my own salvation? Yes! But I'm being saved every single day.

 

[circuitrider]

I once met a men who was proud to "get five salvations" at an event, whatever that meant. I asked him how he connected them with local churches, and if he'd considered giving them Bibles. Even Billy Graham made sure to connect with local churches. He said "Oh, the Holy Spirit will take care of that, besides, they are saved now so it doesn't really matter".

NO NO NO NO NO. It just doesn't work like that.

Hyper-calvinism and this idea that prayer is some magic incantation that saves us is the antithesis of the New Testament.

That kind of thing is maddening! It treats being a follower of Jesus like a form of divine fire insurance.