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Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical (Please read OP before posting).

The Liturgist

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Christmas trees aren't really our thing.

That is true, although I have seen some beautiful Christmas trees in Orthodox parishes in the US; they certainly aren’t prohibited. They have some compelling iconographic symbolism as representations of the Holy Trinity. I would argue however the fact that they have to be cut down is the main blow to their orthodoxy, although on the other side of that occasion, farmers would not bother raising these trees if there was no market to sell them. Recall Metropolitan Kallistos Ware’s first hegumen at the Monastery of St. John on Patmos who said to be Orthodox is to love trees.

I also really dislike the nonsensical threads people make in which they attempt to make a connection between the Christmas tree, which is a symbol of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, and the Asherah poles of the Ugaritic Baal religion, and the sacred groves of other polytheistic sects.
 
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Benjamin Müller

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God has seven commanded assemblies with three of them being specifically called feasts. If we were able to kill Christmas, we'd be able to institute the Holy Days that were ordained and commanded to be kept by God himself. And it's a time to be joyful and glad before the Lord. Christmas is truly misery; but God's Holy Days are health to our bones and gladness to our souls. So your argument falls flat. The Holy Days lay out God's salvation plan; there's no need for 'another gospel', which Paul doubly cursed both man or angel who should preach another gospel than the one they were given.
 
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The Liturgist

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On the contrary, Christmas takes the place of the Feast of Tabernacles and supersedes that Holy Day, which has become obsolete since we are no longer dependent on gathering in order to have the Torah read to us, since we are no longer under the Law according to the Epistles of St. Paul to the Galatians, the Romans, et cetera.

The six feasts of Judaism did outline God’s plan for our salvation, but now that the Messiah has come, and God has been incarnate and walked among us having put on our humanity and glorified it, the feasts have been changed to reflect this.

However several of the Holy Days have been retained, but with a different emphasis, for example, Pascha, which is now focused on the resurrection of Christ, and Pentecost, which is now focused on the descent of the Holy Spirit. However, as for Yom KIppur, Rosh Hashanah, Purim, and so on, these are not relevant to Christianity, indeed it is worth noting that the Book of Esther was very nearly given deuterocanonical status by the early church fathers (what saved it is the longer, superior version one finds in the Septuagint, which has an emphasis on prayer on the part of Esther’s father and the deliverance of the Jews being a result of that prayer).
 
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Bobber

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But how is it that you call Christmas another gospel? It's not a message about anything except Jesus Christ was born.
 
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I was going to comment on your lovely strawman, but it's a total rubbish strawman so I can't even give you credit for that.

Fortunately, what you put forward is not reality.
Not claiming to be an expert on your version of Christmas. But you call it Christmas and you said things in your celebration that I see in the secular worldly version of it. But no. Your practice of Christmas (the Orthodox version) is not biblical. There is nowhere in Scripture that such a practice is found. All you got is the wisemen coming to worship Jesus as a baby, but they did not continue this practice after He was grown up or anything.


So what. It doesn't change what we celebrate in the Orthodox Church, which is the Nativity of our Lord God and Savior.
It matters because they have related elements. You also call it Christmas because my thread which obviously addresses the worldly version of it has drawn your attention.


Again, this is unbiblical. Please cease of such activities immediately.
Well, that is if you are a Bible believer alone like me.
I get no indication we are to follow extra biblical traditions by men and this practice comes from books that are divine in origin.
I can prove the Bible is divine in origin, but with your church, are they infallible?

Christmas trees aren't really our thing.
That’s good. It prevents any dogs from ruining any carpets and helps to prevent any unnecessary house fires.


I think it just the consequences of not properly considering how many Watts of power are being fed into a flammable object.
The one video said it was due to not watering the tree enough or something.
In either case, it is a waste of money and unnecessary to partake of such practices.

The Scriptures record choirs of angels celebrating Christ's birth. It's a good biblical example to follow.
Celebrating a one time occurence of a unique event does not mean one should repeat that event when such does not apply anymore. Jesus did not remain as a baby and nor did the Incarnation keep transpiring every year repeatedly for such a thing to happen, either.


Well your caricatures certainly are.

The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. Celebration of Christ's birth is universal across the ancient Churches.
This is what you have been told, but it is not in the Bible. If it is not in the Bible it is only hear say of what men say. They are not infallible like the Bible is.


Like I said at the beginning, we celebrate the Nativity of our Lord God and Savior.
Stop doing it. It’s not in the Bible. Nowhere do we see the disciples make a practice of worshiping Jesus as a baby after He was an adult.
 
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But how is it that you call Christmas another gospel? It's not a message about anything except Jesus Christ was born.
It’s not that Christmas is another gospel. No Christian celebrates Christmas as if it was a salvation issue. However, it is an unbiblical practice that we do not see in Scripture that we should avoid because there are elements that God would not approve of. My OP goes into the different points of why it is not biblical.
 
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Strong in Him

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Again, this is unbiblical. Please cease of such activities immediately.
Well, that is if you are a Bible believer alone like me.
Bible alone?

Where does the Bible say that we can use computers, smartphones, cars?
Where does the Bible say that we should go into a building once a week to worship God and receive whatever portion of the Bible that the preacher wants to bring to us?
Where does it say that clergy should be ordained/wear dog collars?
Where does the Bible say that there even is a Bible - never mind one preferred translation of it?
I get no indication we are to follow extra biblical traditions by men and this practice comes from books that are divine in origin.
Like I said, the Bible doesn't comment on any of the above, either.

Celebrating a one time occurence of a unique event does not mean one should repeat that event when such does not apply anymore.
a) The birth of Christ applies every day - we should constantly remind ourselves that God chose to be born, as we are, to enter our world and to walk alongside us. We do not have a god who sits on a cloud and deals with us remotely, untouched by our pain, sin and difficulties. Our God understands because he has been there. He understands our sorrow, disappointment, frustration, joy, deepest longings and fervent prayers - he has been there, done that, worn the t shirt.
That is something to be celebrated every day.
b) Would you apply that argument to communion? Jesus told his disciples to regularly repeat/re-enact the Last Supper. The original meal is long over and, apart from Jesus, all those present are dead.
Jesus did not remain as a baby and nor did the Incarnation keep transpiring every year repeatedly for such a thing to happen, either.
No one said that he did.
You did not remain a baby either - nor have your children, if you have any.
I trust that you don't celebrate your own birthday and, if you had/have children, told them that now they have been born there is no need to keep remembering/celebrating the fact? I trust that you deprived them of going to other children's birthday parties, and receiving Christmas presents? I trust that, if you have a wife, you have told her that there is no need to keep celebrating the day you said "I do"?

This is what you have been told, but it is not in the Bible. If it is not in the Bible it is only hear say of what men say. They are not infallible like the Bible is.
You've been told that you can use computers/the internet, but it's not in the Bible.
Stop doing it. It’s not in the Bible.
The KJV isn't in the Bible. Stop using it.

I know this wasn't addressed to me, but when someone says that I/we should stop doing something that they disapprove of, it makes me want to go and do it all the more.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Personally I don’t see anything wrong with celebrating Christ’s birth on Christmas and celebrating His resurrection on Easter. As for what “some people” do on Christmas I would also point out that some people sing praises of Christ on Christmas Day as well. We shouldn’t concern ourselves with things that “some people” may do on Christmas, we should just be concerned with what we do. If what we do is in honor and love for Christ and each other then it’s a good thing.
 
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Bobber

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Why I Think Christmas is Not Biblical.

#1. Christmas is not celebrated anywhere in the Bible.
So? If I wanted to make a day where we think about the goodness of God why should you think it would upset him? Are you against Thanksgiving Day too?
We are never told to honor just a baby Jesus alone,​
but we are told to live unto a risen Lord (2 Corinthians 5:15).​
So your argument is because God never told us to do a certain thing that means he's against it? And who says Christians are just honoring a baby alone. They also think about Easter (all though of course we don't care for the term) but we think of his cross and his whole life.
Focusing on a baby version of Jesus (without mentioning the resurrection of Christ in our message) is to take the focus off of our risen Lord Jesus Christ.​
Why so. In talking about Jesus coming to the earth you're actually as well talking about why he came to be he Savior of the World. Surely you know a lot of Christmas carols refer to that?

Tell me, does Christmas focus on a risen Lord or does it focus on His birth?​
It all depends on who's telling the message. Jesus the Savor came into this would and died for our sins after 30 or so years.
So what? Would if not be better to cover over a pagan god celebration with the true God one?
Is it okay to worship God in any way we like?​
Well the Wise Men came with gifts to worship God and that's where the idea came for giving gifts at Christmas. Why should y ou think God would be so bent out of shape over this? He's also aware if you didn't have Christmas people still would be buying things everyone needs for each other. Why should you think he'd be against the world making up a certain day?
But how can we worship God alone if we are involving pagan elements in our worship of Him.​
You're being extreme on the pagan elements thing if you're talking about a Christmas tree. People in our culture are not worshipping them. It's no different then having a pretty plant in ones home. Are you against that?

#2. Christmas Trees.
21 Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the Lord thy God, which thou shalt make thee.​
Nobody in our culture is worshipping a tree.

Some people sing praises to the Christmas tree (without thinking about it) in Christmas carols​
You mean because of a song like "Oh Christmas Tree" you would call that worshipping a tree? And when it say, "We learn from all your beauty" are you believing people are serious about that? It's nothing more than a fun joke.

Sure, they may not think it is a god or idol exactly because your not bowing down to it or praying to it, but does that mean we can just put statues of demonic idols in our home and God would be okay with that?​
So think about what you're saying. Are you therefore opposed to any nice looking plant being in the home too? Let me tell you....years ago we had a purple wandering Jew plant (it's called) in a basket hanging from a hook above. Then we put a plant underneath it at Christmas....then we decorated it....people couldn't tell is was even two plants.....I'd tell them to look at it close. They'd say WOW that's two plants and not even a tree! So I ask you what about plants then? If it's not a tree you're OK with that?
The Jesus that is being preached in Christmas is a baby Jesus​
As I said people can go beyond just talking about Jesus the baby and can talk about how he became the Savior.
 
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Jipsah

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If we were able to kill Christmas, we'd be able to institute the Holy Days that were ordained and commanded to be kept by God himself.
Translates to "we cou;ld abandon the celebration of the Advent of God Incarnate and instead celebrate with the pre-Christian feasts given tothe Jews."

Pass.


Christmas is truly misery
So much for"O come all ye faithful, joyful and triumphant.... Come and behold Him,born the King of angels...Come and adore Him, Christ the Lord!", right? Pure. Best to adandon all that Christ-centered "misery".

Pass.

oly Days lay out God's salvation plan; there's no need for 'another gospel'
Or the Gospel at all, sounds like. It's all right there in the Old Testament.
, which Paul doubly cursed both man or angel who should preach another gospel than the one they were given.
Strange that you want to turn our focus back to the Law and away from our Lord Christ, don't you think?
 
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The Liturgist

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Well said.
 
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Jipsah

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Your practice of Christmas (the Orthodox version) is not biblical.
What are the Biblical specs for the worship of our Lord Christ? You argument sounds like one that's opposed to Christuan worship in general, and certainly no Christian feasts.

Again, this is unbiblical. Please cease of such activities immediately.
Sorry,already have my seats reserved for Lessons and Carols at All Saints in Sewanee. We'll be worshipping Christ. You're free to do whatever else it is you usually do at the beginning of Advent. Something really spiritual, I'm sure.
Well, that is if you are a Bible believer alone like me.
Bible believer, yes; like you, obviously not.

I get no indication we are to follow extra biblical traditions by men
So no Christiian feasts or celebrations. Sorry mate, IMO that's simply rubbish.

Celebrating a one time occurence of a unique event does not mean one should repeat that event when such does not apply anymore.
I.E., the coming of our Lord wasn't all that big a deal. Nothing to get worked up about.


Jesus did not remain as a baby
Do tell. Did He do anything else of note IYO? I'm sure you forbid the celetration of His glorious Resurrection as well, don't you? After all, it was just this one event...
Stop doing it.
So you can hear the rocks cry out?
 
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prodromos

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Being "Bible only" is unbiblical. It is a man made dogma.
 
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The Liturgist

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Again, this is unbiblical. Please cease of such activities immediately.

Fat chance of that happening I should say.


This is what you have been told, but it is not in the Bible. If it is not in the Bible it is only hear say of what men say. They are not infallible like the Bible is.

The Orthodox Church wrote the New Testament, so I consider them to be in rather a better position to exegete it than yourself.

Actually by the way your approach is a conflation of sola scriptura with sufficiency of scripture, perspicuity of scripture, and the Calvinist “Regulative Principle” of worship which most Calvinist churches have abandoned (aside from the Covenanting Churches like the RPCNA, of which @Jipsah might be familiar).

This is why so many Sola Scriptura churches continue to celebrate Christmas without violating the principle of Sola Scriptura, since Sola scriptura does not require the rejection of ecclesiastical tradition.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thank you, my stalwart friend, for this contribution. You are a great man and a hero to me, even though we are from different denominational backgrounds.
 
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Bible alone?
So if the Bible is not alone your authority, then what else is?
Do you receive visions? Do you believe God talks to you in the fact that you hear His voice audibly?
Do you follow some other holy book besides the Bible similar to the Mormons, etcetera?
In other words, when you criticize the Bible alone position, you open Pandora’s box to all kinds of problems.


Where does the Bible say that we can use computers, smartphones, cars?
While one could incorporate worship with those things, the use of computers, smartphones, cars do not instantly equate with how one worships or uplifts the Lord. Christmas is supposed to be the observance of baby Jesus if your Christian. Not sure why I have to even explain this difference to you seeing it obvious they are different things.



Where does the Bible say that we should go into a building once a week to worship God and receive whatever portion of the Bible that the preacher wants to bring to us?
Right, I am for house churches actually because that is what we see in the New Testament primarily.
That’s the point I am getting at. We should follow the best we can what the Bible says.


Where does it say that clergy should be ordained/wear dog collars?
If church leader or member is wearing a spiked dog collar I am immediately leaving that place. Granted, again, I am more for home church fellowship because that is what we see primarily in the New Testament.


Where does the Bible say that there even is a Bible - never mind one preferred translation of it?

If you really want to know the answer, check out this video here:


Side Note:

So you don’t believe the Bible is sufficient for all matters of faith and practice?
We need to be born again by the Communicated Word.

Like I said, the Bible doesn't comment on any of the above, either.
Uh, then you haven’t read the Bible or you don’t recall what it said.
Jesus condemns the traditions of men in Scripture.

There was no T-shirts back then.
Plus it is insulting to say Jesus got a T-shirt. This belittles what He did for us. Relating Jesus’ suffering to minor struggles men conquer whereby they would get a T-shirt as a part of their reward is no real comparison. In any event, your musings on observing Christ’s birth are still not found in Scripture.


b) Would you apply that argument to communion? Jesus told his disciples to regularly repeat/re-enact the Last Supper. The original meal is long over and, apart from Jesus, all those present are dead.
Well, that is because we are told to observe the last supper repeatedly. So not the same thing.


At the end of the day, our obedience to God is what the Lord desires from us.
Remember, Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments.
Also, honoring a minor holiday involving humans is not the same as trying to bring God into the mix.
For example: When make a joke, it should be towards only other humans and one should never make jokes about God or His Word.
In other words, when you invent an imaginary holiday for God you are involving an element of worship of some kind with God.
Jesus says we are to worship in spirit and truth. Christmas is actually not a practice found in the Bible. So one is not worshiping on the day in truth. Then again, I get it. One has a family, and they don’t want to offend their family over following Christ.


The KJV isn't in the Bible. Stop using it.
The KJV was THE Bible here in America from the 1800s to the early 1960s.
The KJV (Aitkens Bible) was the first printed Bible here in America and it was endorsed by Congress.
Granted, the Aitkens Bible did not succeed, but other KJVs took up the helm quickly after.
But the point here is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
If one does not have a Bible, they don’t have the faith and therefore, one is not born again by water or the communicated Word of God.
Jesus said we need to be born of water to enter the Kingdom.
So if one appears to speak against the revelation known as the Bible, I would greatly worry about them.

In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; Matthew 8:17;Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is an offensive weapon you are to take up when putting on the armor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, 16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).


I know this wasn't addressed to me, but when someone says that I/we should stop doing something that they disapprove of, it makes me want to go and do it all the more.
Jesus said, "Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness," (Matthew 19:18).

You were saying?
 
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Our concern in what we do involves what?

2 Timothy 4:2 says,
"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

My case with the Bible stands on Christmas but I am not expecting those who are knee deep in Christmas to see it if they are not willing to give it up to follow Jesus. To many today, following Jesus according to His Word alone is foolishness. The Christmas Jesus is not the same Jesus of the Bible because he would not endorse secular worldly holidays that have bad fruits attached to them. Such fruits on Christmas are greed, materialism, giving under compulsion, promotion of gluttony, etcetera.

During the Christmas season, two significant lies often circulate, which Jesus would not agree with. The first is the belief that Jesus was born on December 25th. The second involves the existence of a figure named "Father Christmas" or "Santa Claus" who delivers gifts to children on Christmas. These deceptions are often attributed to falsehoods, and Jesus himself referred to the origin of lies in the following passage from the book of John (8:44): "When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
 
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Fat chance of that happening I should say.
We will not all live forever. So it will not last forever.
So yes. It will cease one day.
Then you will have to explain yourself to the Lord Jesus why did not obey His Word and you followed what some church group says instead. I know. You probably don’t think that is going to happen, but it will unless you change, my friend.
I have a more sure Word of prophecy. You don’t.


The Orthodox Church wrote the New Testament, so I consider them to be in rather a better position to exegete it than yourself.
I disagree strongly for many reasons but it is not me who can ultimately convince you.
Only the Lord can change your mind by the Word if you are open to it.
Most simply don’t want the truth to change.
They have invented their own truth.


It matters not what some church or group does. What matters is…… "What saith the Scriptures?“
If this is not the guide for a person’s life in all aspects, then they should not even regard the Bible at all.
They must choose which master they really want to serve.

Revelation 3:15
"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot."
 
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Being "Bible only" is unbiblical. It is a man made dogma.
I am actually for the position of, “Bible Alone + the Anointing to Understand it.”
But I know you disagree with even that.
 
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