"Why I still choose the SDA Church instead of other sabbatarian churches"

[StormyOne]

My opinion is that the split into two groups was totally unnecessary and counter productive. CF doesn't have the emphasis on apologetics as CARM does, and the mentality behind the split harbors a departure from a singular view of the one body of Christ most Christians aspire to. That's what the "remnant" distinctives are reponsible for.

I actually got posts deleted and warnings because I violated rules regarding "outsiders", from posts written before those rules went into effect. But anyway I hope you're right, and that we can have meaningful dialog (dialogue for T&O) in this location.

Victor

probably Victor however as you might be familiar not everyone is comfortable having their beliefs dissected and examined.... so constant conflict was a problem with no resolution in sight....

 

[VictorC]

It definately takes time and effort to translate this verbiage... this reminds me of that pathetic creature from the Hobbit/Lord of the Rings series. What was its name? Oh, never mind
Yup, we're on the same page, that stands out clearly
CARM was given a reputation via the rumour mill, and when that leaked out, I was interested in seeing what these folks were up to. CARM is tough in that it invokes a fast learning curve to produce the answers needed, but it is populated by people who love Jesus and are just as overwhelmed by unmerited grace as I am.

Grace is good, no? You bet it is!

(I had to edit out the characters, as I have rights to post only five)

Victor

Oh wow havesy ever! Hey if you ever have like a spare 6 or 7 hours you bes not using and would like to hear the whole thing? ..... !!!!

Wow we bes completely on the SAME page here indeed!!!
It bes so very refreshing to hear GOOD news being proclaimed.


Well and what else you bes: one whats not been programmed through slowly and gradually being indoctrinated into toxic soteriology that robs you of assurance, puts you back under the law measuring yourself all the time and getting more and more discouraged because you cannot see God "changing" you, forgetting of course how you BES changed ALREADY -- and then that whole vicious razor wire bear trap of the notion of "repentance not to be repented of" being the only real/sincere repentance (translate: it bes not enough to SEE sin for what it bes and feel contrite and sorry you did it -- you MUST in that moment somehow be able to magickally guarantee you shall never ever ever again make that specific error, sin, bad choice, whatever, never stumble or err on that point again, or you bes not "sincere") ... and from there it becomes like a rabid dog what chasies its tail going nowhere really fast and getsy dizzy till it makesy sick. Because from there you start to tear yourself to shreds trying to find that "hidden" sin you bes sure MUST be there causing all this, what big horrible secret about yourself you refuse to face, you try to dredge up the most hideous, denigrating, self-destroying way to view yourself you can imagine or muster, or thing of which to accuse yourself to make yourself seem a monster, a villian, because maybe if you face that you will be freed from this horrible torture of being trapped in this supposed "insincerity" of NOT being able to CAUSE YOURSELF TO STOP SINNING BY AN ACT OF WILL. and it does no good asksy God to make you sincere because if you supposedly bes not sincere and supposedly your lack of sincerity bes what stops Him from hearing you, then to ASK to be made sincere bes an insincere request from an insincere person what He will not hear anyway!!!


It bes glad you bes here. It hears scary things about that CARM place so it bes not going there ever, but you don't seem vicious at all. You seem to be about GOOD news. That bes what ppls needs no matter where they dwell, on earth, under the earth, in the abyss, in a monastery. GOOD news. Liberty for the captives. Recovery of sight for the blind. Yes.

 

[VictorC]

probably Victor however as you might be familiar not everyone is comfortable having their beliefs dissected and examined.... so constant conflict was a problem with no resolution in sight....

No one is ever comfortable having their doctrines dissected, that is true. It is a necessary process all of us have to go through sooner or later. Ephesians 4:11-16 comes to my mind, emphasizing "Till we all come in the unity of the faith" as our goal.

I didn't see the bickering that led up to the present result. But it doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to realize that human fraility is to blame, and not a divine purpose.

Victor

 

[StormyOne]

No one is ever comfortable having their doctrines dissected, that is true. It is a necessary process all of us have to go through sooner or later. Ephesians 4:11-16 comes to my mind, emphasizing "Till we all come in the unity of the faith" as our goal.

I didn't see the bickering that led up to the present result. But it doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to realize that human fraility is to blame, and not a divine purpose.

Victor

Correct, add in the mix the belief that one group possesses the whole "truth" and if you disagree then you are destined to hell it makes for an interesting mix.....

As I said though, we are looking forward to exchanging ideas with ya....

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

No one is ever comfortable having their doctrines dissected, that is true. It is a necessary process all of us have to go through sooner or later. Ephesians 4:11-16 comes to my mind, emphasizing "Till we all come in the unity of the faith" as our goal.

Disagree. At least, if you bes needsy tying this to specific methods of having nasty, rude, button-pushing, baiting, self-justifying, self-righteous gits ripping into your heart and soul eviscerating you at every level to see what they can find to twist and mischaracterize and then use against you -- or any remotely resembling facsimiles thereof -- this one just does not see where that can do any good in the end, and it bes certain that bes NOT what God had in mind for refining our beliefs or awareness of Him.

That we should examine our beliefs, refine and improve our awareness of God and the realities of faith, bes no doubt. That everyone must be subjected to hostilities, abrasiveness, invasiveness, and molestation of conscience as part of the process? Forget it -- it would rather keep whatever someone else might regard as "errors". After all, who bes to say whether or not they bes the ones whats wrong and needing to change their thinking more toward what Moriah already knows. You don't get assigned this place in the universe and not learn a thing or two in the process.

 

[VictorC]

Disagree. At least, if you bes needsy tying this to specific methods of having nasty, rude, button-pushing, baiting, self-justifying, self-righteous gits ripping into your heart and soul eviscerating you at every level to see what they can find to twist and mischaracterize and then use against you -- or any remotely resembling facsimiles thereof -- this one just does not see where that can do any good in the end, and it bes certain that bes NOT what God had in mind for refining our beliefs or awareness of Him.

We have all seen the methods of the 'remnant' personalities involved, which basically would like to reduce anyone who doesn't grovel to the sabbath to the state of a drooling idiot.
That certainly isn't what I intended. My intent is to question the doctrines we assume to be true, and determine if they're compliant to His Word or not. As I noted in my earlier post, the goal should be attainment of unity in the common faith we were given in a single Gospel. Variants of the Gospel are "another gospel", and Galatians 1:9 has scathing remarks for those who push the variants we don't need.

That we should examine our beliefs, refine and improve our awareness of God and the realities of faith, bes no doubt. That everyone must be subjected to hostilities, abrasiveness, invasiveness, and molestation of conscience as part of the process? Forget it -- it would rather keep whatever someone else might regard as "errors". After all, who bes to say whether or not they bes the ones whats wrong and needing to change their thinking more toward what Moriah already knows. You don't get assigned this place in the universe and not learn a thing or two in the process.

Lets take a look at Ephesians 4:11-16, which I had cited earlier:

11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
14: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15: But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

At some point of time, we all needed a teacher to give us at least the tools necessary to dig into God's Word for ourselves. I have a small amount of formal education myself, which has given me the ability to become downright dangerous, or downright edifying.

The goal is what determines the character of presentation. Our goal is to help everyone to learn, and as a body on a discussion board that goal isn't hard to attain. The detractors who prefer their distinctives over submission to the Bible aren't loving, nor are they meaning to bring everyone into the fulness of Christ. Their goal is to bring you back into the bondage of Moses, and Christ came to redeem us from that when He reconciled us to God with His own Blood.

Victor

 

[Pythons]

I had the same thing happen to me that happened to VictorC. Reports, because I answered posts subsequent to the split that were initiated prior to the split. The Trads do not like outsiders looking at their doctrines.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Hi Victor...

We have all seen the methods of the 'remnant' personalities involved, which basically would like to reduce anyone who doesn't grovel to the sabbath to the state of a drooling idiot.

yeah, that fits!

That certainly isn't what I intended.

No, of course not. One thing you should know about daimonizomai is that it tends to free associate a lot and springboard to its own thoughts from things posted. So if it rants "against" something it has seen and does not like please do not assume the rant bes indicting the person whose post it responds to. Believesy, if that bes the case it WILL be clear! :o Otherwise just take it friendly like we standsies side by side and it points and goes "yeah, you seen THAT thing over THERE though? EWWW!"

Without belabouring the issue or playing violins over itself, let it simply state it has been severely traumatized spiritually and psychologically by a number of Bad Things So-Called Christians Did AND STILL DO, and so it tends to be a little reactive and volatile when certain words or ideas trip those triggers. No one reading should EVER take that to heart as any kind of personal indictment or anything more than Moriah reacting to the associations in its own mind that those words or ideas bring up. Again, if it has "issue" with someone here personally, it will say so openly.

My intent is to question the doctrines we assume to be true, and determine if they're compliant to His Word or not. As I noted in my earlier post, the goal should be attainment of unity in the common faith we were given in a single Gospel. Variants of the Gospel are "another gospel", and Galatians 1:9 has scathing remarks for those who push the variants we don't need.

Agreed, but a couple problems do tend to come up here. One being that pretty much everyone thinks his or her version of the Gospel bes the "right" one to which eventually all others will be brought. Even trading in a flawed, bondagey, legalistic "gospel" for a much better grace-filled one does not remove this tendency; if anything it can stoke it higher, in fact! So we need to be sure we walk with proper humble awareness of the sharp and inescapable fact that NONE of us has the mind of God and that ALL of us see through a glass darkly.

Having said that, however, we return to your premise above and we can note that Paul did reference some very specific things in tandem with these scathing remarks. While we probably should not take that as license to be scathing toward persons offering the modern-day equivalent of those things, we can, Moriah believes, safely note precisely WHICH things Paul has cited so strongly and automatically dismiss them OUT of our "working pile" of potential ideas to savour, explore, and test against Scripture and the Spirit as things we no longer need to trouble ourselves over attempting to "work in" or reconcile with the Truth, as they simply never will. And you nailed it spot on when you pointed to the subtle (and some not-so-subtle) efforts to bring us again under bondage to the Law as front and center on that list of things we no longer need to be open minded about. Just like it doesn't take long to figure out we probably should not be open minded toward eating dung, either.

Lets take a look at Ephesians 4:11-16, which I had cited earlier:

11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
14: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15: But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

On the whole that really does sound lovely. Losing discernment bes like losing magnetization in one's compass. The needle calls anything it pleases "North" and generally that which has the strongest pull upon it ... (!!!) It bes one thing to sit in an armchair dryly constructing theological propositions and theoretical suppositions and touch upon such possibilities but another thing entirely to encounter a living, breathing creature imprisoned in such a place (or end up that way oneself) .... not QUITE the selfsame thing as that indicated in verse 14, but perhaps the abreactive side thereunto that most don't ever see ...

At some point of time, we all needed a teacher to give us at least the tools necessary to dig into God's Word for ourselves. I have a small amount of formal education myself, which has given me the ability to become downright dangerous, or downright edifying.

*exchanges secret handshake*
shall it tell you the Name of its Instructor in this regard?

at the very least we both share the burden of seeking the real miracles whilst knowing how to perform the sleight of hand .... as far as Moriah bes concerned, this alone bes the designator of "clergy" -- if there bes any such thing -- independent of any council or body of humans bestowing titles and honorariums. Y'know?

The goal is what determines the character of presentation. Our goal is to help everyone to learn, and as a body on a discussion board that goal isn't hard to attain. The detractors who prefer their distinctives over submission to the Bible aren't loving, nor are they meaning to bring everyone into the fulness of Christ. Their goal is to bring you back into the bondage of Moses, and Christ came to redeem us from that when He reconciled us to God with His own Blood.

AMEN Victor.
A blessing to 'chat' with you here.

 

[VictorC]

Without belabouring the issue or playing violins over itself, let it simply state it has been severely traumatized spiritually and psychologically by a number of Bad Things So-Called Christians Did AND STILL DO, and so it tends to be a little reactive and volatile when certain words or ideas trip those triggers.

This says volumes.
Sometimes I wonder what Father sees in us.
(Jesus)

And you nailed it spot on when you pointed to the subtle (and some not-so-subtle) efforts to bring us again under bondage to the Law as front and center on that list of things we no longer need to be open minded about. Just like it doesn't take long to figure out we probably should not be open minded toward eating dung, either.

Read Acts 21:21-31 sometime, and see what Paul went through at the hands of those zealous of the law of Moses.

*exchanges secret handshake*
shall it tell you the Name of its Instructor in this regard?

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

AMEN Victor.
A blessing to 'chat' with you here.

Thanks, and I enjoy your posts, too!
I haven't figured out what the 'guestbook' is for, as I'm new to the features on this forum.
But I liked the UFO house on stilts!

Victor

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

A shame Moriah missed the auction. Only just found out about it tonight and it had already been held and closed. It has no interest in Tennessee per se but would have loved to have owned that homestead in particular.

You have a generous manner, Victor.

 

[JonMiller]

I have been reported for posts made before the split.

JM

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I have been reported for posts made before the split.

JM

That bes not nice.
If they bes more than 2 weeks old, generally they bes considered not actionable. You can always defend them in the report thread on the basis that they bes made before the split and as such, issues with them should be considered moot.

Find one of the nicer mods on here and PM them. They can probably help you.