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Why I post, or "Yes, you can be a Christian and accept evolution"

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Vance

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I am a Christian who believes that God used the process of evolution over billions of years to create the great diversity of life we see on earth. This means I am a Theistic Evolutionist (or TE in the forum lingo). This position happens to be the minority opinion here in the U.S., but the majority opinion among Christians worldwide, so this is not some fringe heretical position.

Now, why do I post here? Why do I debate with Young Earth Creationists (YEC’s) about the scientific evidence and the theological issues regarding our origins? It is not at all to convince any particular YEC that they should become a theistic evolutionist, that should be said right away. I have no problem with anyone believing in a young earth or in special creation without evolution.

The reason why I engage in these discussions is very simple: I want to remove the stumbling block that is being taught by YEC’ists. I believe that the recent rise of creationism as a major “ministry” area, beginning in the 1970's in earnest, has created a severe threat to Christianity. Not the belief in a young earth and creation without evolution itself, but the “either/or” teaching that comes with it. More and more people are being taught that evolution and Christianity are wholly inconsistent and that if you believe one, you can not really believe the other. This puts two very distinct groups in crisis and souls are being lost to the Kingdom as a result. People falling into these two categories might (in fact, they DO) come to this site to seek answers to this crisis and it is to THEM that I am speaking. Here are the two groups:

1. There are Christians, especially young people, who were raised in a YEC household or attend a YEC church, and were taught that evolution is evil, it is absolutely contrary to Scripture and that if you believe Scripture, you can not also believe in evolution. Those who do believe both are deluded or compromising Christians not even worthy of the name of Christian. These young people are ingrained with this teaching and accept it fully. Then they come into contact with the real evidence and come to suspect that evolution might actually be true. This creates a severe crisis of faith. They have been taught that if evolution was true, then the atheists are right and the Bible can not be trusted and God did not create everything after all. I have seen this crisis in action and it is very, very dangerous. I have counseled college students who either had abandoned Christianity or were about to because of this teaching of incompatibility, and was able to show them that the conflict was not true and that they could, indeed , believe in both. Most did not even know that there were Christians who accepted evolution, which shows how sheltered their lives had been. Bottom line: souls nearly lost to the Kingdom which are now solidly within the fold of Christianity.

2. There are non-Christians who accept evolution. In fact, almost all of them do. Those who do not know much about it might be able to set aside this acceptance and adopt a YEC belief and go on just fine. But most of those who really understand what evolution says, have studied it and the evidence available, simply will NOT accept YEC teaching. So, if they are told that Christians, by definition, do not believe in evolution and, instead, believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old that all the diversity of life was developed after a flood 4,000 years ago, this will be a MAJOR stumbling block to their acceptance of ANY Christian message. Thus YEC’ism becomes a barrier to the Cross for these non-Christians. I have faced this barrier in my own witnessing. It is distressing that I have to overcome the teachings of fellow Christians to win a soul to the Lord. It is even more frustrating when these non-Christians begin quoting to me the very arguments given to them by YEC’s as to why true Christian belief is diametrically opposed to acceptance of evolution. While I have been able to overcome this barrier with some, others have simply refused to believe any teaching from the Bible because they have been convinced by Young Earth Creationist teachings that the literal reading is the correct reading. I can only hope that these souls are not entirely lost to the Kingdom, but that the seed I planted will take root and eventually allow them to reconsider the issue.

I am sure that many people falling into one of these two categories come to view this forum and I hope to reach them with the message that they need not abandon Christianity or refuse to consider it at all just because they accept an old earth and evolution.

They CAN be Christian. They CAN experience the fullness of Christ.

People can believe in a 10,000 year old earth all they want. They can believe that God did not use evolution as part of His creative process. But I must fight against the additional teaching that these beliefs are the only ones consistent with a sincere reading of Scripture or with Christian belief in general.
 
I would like to hear more. I am a person who has always believed in YEC but also see some things to make me question. Especially the age of the universe etc.

I would like to know how theistic evolutionists work some things out.

For example...the diversity of life. If live evolved from simple forms to complex forms, is there anything special about humanity? For example, did God create man especially for his glory? Or is man just another step on a long evolutionary plane without any special status to God?

Also, if humans do have a special status to God? In other words...Christ came and sacrificed his life for humans...and not for Chimps. At what point is an animal a human and get in on the gift of eternal life?
 
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Dark_Lite

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JVD said:
I would like to hear more. I am a person who has always believed in YEC but also see some things to make me question. Especially the age of the universe etc.

I would like to know how theistic evolutionists work some things out.

For example...the diversity of life. If live evolved from simple forms to complex forms, is there anything special about humanity? For example, did God create man especially for his glory? Or is man just another step on a long evolutionary plane without any special status to God?

Also, if humans do have a special status to God? In other words...Christ came and sacrificed his life for humans...and not for Chimps. At what point is an animal a human and get in on the gift of eternal life?
Diversity: Evolution.

Specialness of humans: The answer you will get concerning Adam and Eve are varied. The general answer about the specialness of humans though is that God ensouled the first humans (whether it be Adam and Eve or some population of humans) and thus made them his special creation. Humans are the only part of God's creation that have souls. Therefore, they're the only ones going to the afterlife.

Status of humans: Humans will probably continue to evolve, albeit slowly since we've pretty much grinded our natural selection to a halt. This in no way changes that we are ensouled humans created by God.
 
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gluadys

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JVD said:
For example...the diversity of life. If live evolved from simple forms to complex forms, is there anything special about humanity? For example, did God create man especially for his glory? Or is man just another step on a long evolutionary plane without any special status to God?

In a sense they are not mutually exclusive options. Evolution applies to biology, and biologically we are certainly just another step on a long evolutionary plane.

But that doesn't mean we have no special status with God.

Think of it this way.

God made all the nations and peoples of the earth. Then he chose one nation (Israel) for a special destiny. Israel was not created by a different special process. But it was marked out and chosen for a special role in reconciling humanity to God.

Similarly, humans as a species, were not created differently than any other species. But God marked us with his image and gave us capacities beyond those of our fellow creatures.
 
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Vance

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And there is always the possibility that, while we evolved physically, at some point God stepped in "breathed" His Spirit into us. This part we will likely never know.

But what we do know is that the special relationship exists because, whether you read literally or non-literally, the Scripture makes that abundantly clear.
 
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GodSaves

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I do not think creationism is that big of a stumbling block as it maybe made out to be. If so then one should look at Billy Graham and other like him and their crusades and see how many have given their lives over to Christ. Billy Graham believes in a young earth.

I do not think that to reach someone who is not a Christian you should necessarily talk about creationism or evolution. It is about what Jesus Christ has done and according to the Gospels. I know when I talk with non-believers I don't even mention creationism because that is not what they need to hear. They need to hear about what Christ did for them, and how Christ can save them.

Those who say that creationism is why they don't become a Christian, I believe are not telling the complete truth. They see that there are those who are Christians who believe in evolution and those people have faith in Christ, but yet the non-believers are going to blame creationists still? That to me is a copout.

Creationism/evolutionism are subjects for those who are already Christians, as far as Genesis goes. It is about understanding God's Word as a Christian.

Why would one use evolution or creationism to lure a non-believer to Christ? That makes no sense to me. So I don't see how this is a stumbling block for those who are non-believers, unless that is how a Christian presents God to a non-believer.(through creation/evolution rather then through Jesus Christ)

On a side note, I was hoping that some conservative TE's would comment in their forum, on the thread that was started, about the creationists topic in our forum about death before the fall. There has been much said on the CO forum on the subject. Just curious how TE's view it. I would ask that they comment in the TE forum because otherwise it is going to end up in a debate/arguement. Everything seems to. Not only TE's fault we too are to blame.

God Bless
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Thing is, GodSaves, this is the first time I've heard that Billy Graham is a YEC. Point being, therefore, he doesn't make it a central plank of his evangelistic message, nor does he actually promote the view as part of the gospel.

I think this is Vance's point. Billy Graham urges people to repent of sin, and accept Christ. He doesn't urge them to reject evolution. Therefore his YEC views have no more influence on the effectiveness of his evangelistic ministry than his preference for a particular composer, or his choice of rare over well done, or vice-versa.
 
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Vance

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Godsaves, you are not really getting my point exactly.

1. YEC beliefs are not a stumbling block, only the particular teaching that evolution directly contradicts Scripture.

2. I do not bring up creation/evolution when witnessing. It is the non-Christian who brings it up. Here is how it sometimes goes:

"how can I believe in a Scripture that tells me such an obvious falsehood as the earth only being 10,000 years old and that creatures have not evolved over billions of years. I know those things are true, and yet the Bible says something very different."

I say "well, no, that is only one interpretation of Scripture, a literal reading. Genesis can also be read non-literally in a way that does not conflict with your acceptance of scientific truths at all."

They then reply "well, I think you are just finding a convenient way to avoid Biblical errors. I know a lot of Christians, and they have all told me that the Bible clearly says the earth was created 6,000 years ago and that evolution is an atheistic myth. Why should I believe your interpretation over theirs? If they are right, then I know the Bible is bunk and all this other stuff about Christ dying for my sins is likely bunk as well."

This has happened to me on a few different occassions. And can you imagine how many non-Christians are thinking "the Bible must be bunk, then" after hearing this "either/or" YEC message on the radio, television or from a YEC, but never discuss it with a non-YEC Christian?

And, yes, I believe for a non-Christian who has heard the YEC line given to them hard and heavy, this could a legitimate reason all on its own to reject Christianity in their minds, not just some excuse. Here in the U.S. YEC has been become so prevalent as Fundamentalism grows that they actually may not hear the alternative. This is what is scary.

And also remember, that this is also a danger to those young people heading off to college and into the real world where they might look more closely at the origins issues. Working in our youth group and in the college group at the Assembly of God church my family has attended for generations, I have had to counsel many kids in a VERY severe crisis of Faith.

Again, all for no good reason. Lot's of downside to this either/or teaching. No upside.
 
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GodSaves

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I understand your point Vance. I have come across non-believers that find Jesus Christ as the only way to God the Father as stumbling block as well. They site other religions such as buddism, taoism, as they don't have one way to salvation. I have talked with non-believers who see the wars in the Old Testament as a stumbling block. I have talked with non-believers who don't think there is a hell, but only heaven, and ones who say if God is love then how can there be a hell.

These things are equally preventing some from becoming Christians. So shall we reinterpret them so it is easier? This is what many other religions have already done.

I am not trying to say you support or believe in these things, don't get me wrong. But these things are just as much of a stumbling block, if not more then, a young earth. Why not spend more time arguing with other religions telling them to stop preaching their religion because it is hurting Christians witnessing power.

If people tell you that they would have become a Christian, but they aren't because some people who are Christians believe in a young earth, that is a copout. You know that we are in the minority, a very small minority. I would believe that they have more reasons to not becoming a Christian then because some Christians believe in a young earth. This goes all the way back to Adam when Adam said, 'LORD the woman gave me eat the fruit.' It is human nature to turn and blame someone or something else because one does not want to do something or because one did do something.

Everyone has a choice. You Vance are a testament that one can believe in evolution and be a Christian. Non-believers you talk with see your example and if they choose to not accept Jesus Christ it is because they don't want to. Not because there is some guy next door or 4000 miles away who believes in a young earth. I hope when you are asked these questions that you are taking the time to show them that you are a Christian and still believe in evolution. And if you are then and they choose to not become a Christian then it was their choice and not at the fault of someone else because they believe in a young earth or your fault. We always want to blame someone for what we did or didn't do.

Genesis 3
12 The man said, "The woman you put here with me-she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."

God Bless
 
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Vance

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Well, yes, there are many potential stumbling blocks, but most of them are not *uneccessary* stumbling blocks, and very few are ones that Christians THEMSELVES place in the path to Christ.

I can not do much about the fact that other religions offer alternatives or even that their very existence creates a form of stumbling block (ie. how do you know yours is correct, etc). And, yes, the sheer violence of the early Israelite experience is something that we must deal with (and the Church does use various interpretive and doctrinal methods to discuss this matter). We do not create new interpretations in order to lead people to Christ, that would be deceitful. But we need not create an UNECESSARY stumbling block as many YEC's have done with their "either/or" teaching.

But this particular stumbling block is fairly new, it is growing and it is the one I have come into contact with the most. Again, I see us losing young people over this issue.

On the cop out issue, the problem still exists. Even if it is just one of many reasons why they might not accept Christ, it is still A reason, and a legitimate one in their mind. Even if they see me as an example, they can still say (and have said) that I am just twisting Scripture around so that the Bible would still be valid, and that they actually believe that the literal interpretation IS what the Bible says, therefore it is wrong. Why should they take my interpretation over all the Christians they have discussed this matter with?

And I have experienced at least one occassion where it WAS the single issue keeping them from Christ. One co-worker of mine was remaining a disbeliever due to this one issue, and he had never even heard of Christians actually accepting evolution (being raised in the South). When I explained the Theistic Evolution approach, he actually became very excited and relieved at the same time, and I was able to lead him to the Lord.

And now you can see why this is an important issue to me.
 
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pressingon

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Vance...

I've been meaning to reply to your post since I first read it. I applaud you for your well-written testimony of your purpose here!

On to the key point:

The very same stumbling block that you are combatting in your witnessing efforts is the same stumbling block that creationists face in their witnessing efforts... it's simply a matter of how we lead people to overcome that stumbling block which differs.

The bottom line is that, for some people, accepting Christ becomes nearly impossible when they cannot reconcile their interpretation of Bible with their understanding of the hows of creation. We, as we witness to such individuals, need to be able to explain to the individual that there are two ways to reconcile the interpretations -- revisit one's understanding of the Bible, or revisit one's understanding of science. Of course we can explain which one we believe and why, but we must remember.... our role is to inform, not persuade (conviction is up to the Holy Spirit).

May God bless you as you minister to the lost....
 
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Vance

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Yes, pressingon, I agree with this completely. I do not expect YEC's, when discussing this matter with either non-Christians or the Christian young people heading out "into the world", to withold their own belief about what the proper interpretation of Scripture is. Not in the least.

I think the best approach is to say something like "honest, sincere, Bible-believing Christians fall on both sides of this issue, depending on how they interpret the relevant Scripture. Some, like myself [our church, etc] believe X, others believe Y. The point is that no matter what you accept or reject about scientific evidence and theories, and regardless of your interpretation of Genesis, the Bible is still the Holy Word of God and speaks absolute Truth."
 
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Micaiah

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There are two possibilities. One is that TE's are correct in what they assert. If that is the case then your crusade is to be applauded. Who could argue against winning souls for Christ. And how dare those darsdardly YEC's put a stumbling block before those seeking to enter the kingdom of God. It would be better that a mill stone be tied around their neck, and they be cast into the depths of the sea.

The other possibility is that TE's are wrong and that God intended the readers of Genesis to believe the plain meaning of the text. In this case, the argument is the product of one who is either deluded, or intentionally seeks to undermine and discredit God's inpired truth. It doesn't get any lower than trying to justify heresy and compromise on the premise that it will gain more converts to Christ.

So the question of how we should understand your intentions Vance has a lot to do with whether your interpretation of Genesis is legitimate, or a fraud.
 
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