Why I post, or "Yes, you can be a Christian and accept evolution"

Beowulf · Sep 18, 2004

It doesn't matter a hoot about whether evolution is true or not when witnessing. It's been my experience that evolution is used most often as an excuse to side-step God but it's not the only one. I used the evolution excuse too, but if it didn't seem like it would fit the situation I was in then I'd use another favorite like, "Oh yeah? then if God is so loving then why is there so much suffering in the world?". That one got me a lot of mileage too.

All in all it's God that does the saving, not us. All we can do is plant the seeds. God shall have mercy on whom He shall have mercy. It's not our responsibilty. If it was then there's a lot of people in big trouble. Sure, it's our commision to spread the gospel but it's not by our power that grace and mercy is given. If you don't say the right thing and God wants the person saved then He'll send someone else to say what is necessary to water what was already planted. God gives the increase, not us.

Vance · Sep 18, 2004

Micaiah said:
There are two possibilities. One is that TE's are correct in what they assert. If that is the case then your crusade is to be applauded. Who could argue against winning souls for Christ. And how dare those darsdardly YEC's put a stumbling block before those seeking to enter the kingdom of God. It would be better that a mill stone be tied around their neck, and they be cast into the depths of the sea.

The other possibility is that TE's are wrong and that God intended the readers of Genesis to believe the plain meaning of the text. In this case, the argument is the product of one who is either deluded, or intentionally seeks to undermine and discredit God's inpired truth. It doesn't get any lower than trying to justify heresy and compromise on the premise that it will gain more converts to Christ.

So the question of how we should understand your intentions Vance has a lot to do with whether your interpretation of Genesis is legitimate, or a fraud.

No, it really does not depend on this. Even if evolution is wrong, there is no damage to Christianity whatsoever by simply AVOIDING teaching ONLY that there is a direct conflict between Scripture and evolution. The point is only to make sure that all those who might fall into either of the two categories mentioned understand that there are sincere, Bible-believing Christians on both sides of this and that it is up to each Christian to make up their own mind. You can advocate your position all you want. but to leave the listener with the impression that this is the only view out there is very dangerous for all the reasons stated.

Again, there is serious downside to the "either/or" teaching, but no particular upside, since it is NOT a salvation issue.

Vance · Sep 18, 2004

It doesn't matter a hoot about whether evolution is true or not when witnessing.

Well, this is not true, since I have provided very specific examples where it DOES matter, and much more than a hoot.

It's been my experience that evolution is used most often as an excuse to side-step God but it's not the only one. I used the evolution excuse too, but if it didn't seem like it would fit the situation I was in then I'd use another favorite like, "Oh yeah? then if God is so loving then why is there so much suffering in the world?". That one got me a lot of mileage too.

For many, it is not just an excuse, it is a REASON in their minds. See my example of my co-worker who had this as his only reason for not accepting Christianity.

All in all it's God that does the saving, not us. All we can do is plant the seeds.

Or place the stumbling block, making it much harder.

God shall have mercy on whom He shall have mercy. It's not our responsibilty.

Well, that is wrong, it definitely IS our responsibility. God does not just select people to come to Him, He accepts those who come. We are His agents to inform the world of the NEED to come.

If it was then there's a lot of people in big trouble. Sure, it's our commision to spread the gospel but it's not by our power that grace and mercy is given. If you don't say the right thing and God wants the person saved then He'll send someone else to say what is necessary to water what was already planted. God gives the increase, not us.

But we do play a vital role, and if we are making that process more difficult, then we are doing wrong. Why do you think we have the verse specifically telling us not to be a stumbling block to our fellow man?

Beowulf · Sep 18, 2004

I have no clue who "led" me to the Lord. It wasn't in church and I was quite alone not thinking about God or Jesus. All I was doing was pondering the stars one night on a back porch. And yes I'd fought gallantly against those that spoke of God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.

Yes, we have a vital role in spreading the gospel but that's as far as it goes. In every instance it's not us, the bond-servant, that has the power of salvation but the master. If I were to think myself as someone's vital link to his/her salvation then I believe I should rethink that. If it's not me then it will be someone else. The Lord's will shall be done whether I'm used or not. God even used the unbeliever to perform a devine act, that of the crucifixion of Christ. If Peter had his way Jesus would never have gone to Jerusalem.

aeroz19 · Sep 19, 2004

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Vance again.

Vance said:
I am a Christian who believes that God used the process of evolution over billions of years to create the great diversity of life we see on earth. This means I am a Theistic Evolutionist (or TE in the forum lingo). This position happens to be the minority opinion here in the U.S., but the majority opinion among Christians worldwide, so this is not some fringe heretical position.

Interesting.

Now, why do I post here? Why do I debate with Young Earth Creationists (YECs) about the scientific evidence and the theological issues regarding our origins? It is not at all to convince any particular YEC that they should become a theistic evolutionist, that should be said right away. I have no problem with anyone believing in a young earth or in special creation without evolution.

The reason why I engage in these discussions is very simple: I want to remove the stumbling block that is being taught by YECists. I believe that the recent rise of creationism as a major ministry area, beginning in the 1970's in earnest, has created a severe threat to Christianity. Not the belief in a young earth and creation without evolution itself, but the either/or teaching that comes with it. More and more people are being taught that evolution and Christianity are wholly inconsistent and that if you believe one, you can not really believe the other. This puts two very distinct groups in crisis and souls are being lost to the Kingdom as a result. People falling into these two categories might (in fact, they DO) come to this site to seek answers to this crisis and it is to THEM that I am speaking. Here are the two groups:

Very true. YEC has more of a stronghold on the souls of people than you think. For example, I am still strugging under YECism; I know longer believe in it, and am working on repairing the damage done to my faith. My parents always taught me that the Bible teached a literal YEC, and that rejecting this is rejecting the rest of the Bible. Take it all or none. And Evolution is evil and = atheism. But now that I'm an adult, I have searched the science for myself and have come to the conclusion that YEC is false.

I can't discuss this with my family, because they'd think I had deconverted or was out of line with the "Truth." They are very very religious and strict about this. To denounce YECism is to denounce your faith in God according to them! And it is this way in so many YEC households.

1. There are Christians, especially young people, who were raised in a YEC household or attend a YEC church, and were taught that evolution is evil, it is absolutely contrary to Scripture and that if you believe Scripture, you can not also believe in evolution. Those who do believe both are deluded or compromising Christians not even worthy of the name of Christian. These young people are ingrained with this teaching and accept it fully. Then they come into contact with the real evidence and come to suspect that evolution might actually be true. This creates a severe crisis of faith. They have been taught that if evolution was true, then the atheists are right and the Bible can not be trusted and God did not create everything after all. I have seen this crisis in action and it is very, very dangerous. I have counseled college students who either had abandoned Christianity or were about to because of this teaching of incompatibility, and was able to show them that the conflict was not true and that they could, indeed , believe in both. Most did not even know that there were Christians who accepted evolution, which shows how sheltered their lives had been. Bottom line: souls nearly lost to the Kingdom which are now solidly within the fold of Christianity.

lol...maybe I need to PM you! This is so accurate.

2. There are non-Christians who accept evolution. In fact, almost all of them do. Those who do not know much about it might be able to set aside this acceptance and adopt a YEC belief and go on just fine. But most of those who really understand what evolution says, have studied it and the evidence available, simply will NOT accept YEC teaching. So, if they are told that Christians, by definition, do not believe in evolution and, instead, believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old that all the diversity of life was developed after a flood 4,000 years ago, this will be a MAJOR stumbling block to their acceptance of ANY Christian message. Thus YECism becomes a barrier to the Cross for these non-Christians. I have faced this barrier in my own witnessing. It is distressing that I have to overcome the teachings of fellow Christians to win a soul to the Lord. It is even more frustrating when these non-Christians begin quoting to me the very arguments given to them by YECs as to why true Christian belief is diametrically opposed to acceptance of evolution. While I have been able to overcome this barrier with some, others have simply refused to believe any teaching from the Bible because they have been convinced by Young Earth Creationist teachings that the literal reading is the correct reading. I can only hope that these souls are not entirely lost to the Kingdom, but that the seed I planted will take root and eventually allow them to reconsider the issue.

Amazing. I had never thought of this before. You're right!

I am sure that many people falling into one of these two categories come to view this forum and I hope to reach them with the message that they need not abandon Christianity or refuse to consider it at all just because they accept an old earth and evolution.

They CAN be Christian. They CAN experience the fullness of Christ.

People can believe in a 10,000 year old earth all they want. They can believe that God did not use evolution as part of His creative process. But I must fight against the additional teaching that these beliefs are the only ones consistent with a sincere reading of Scripture or with Christian belief in general.

You're doing the right thing. Saving faiths is the most important. If I could rep you multiple times for one post I would.

Vance · Sep 19, 2004

Thank you aeroz.

It is sometimes frustrating dealing with fellow Christians whose primary retort is "well, you must not be a real Christian, then." Whether said outright or not, this is what they are saying. I KNOW this is a current crisis in the Church, and I know I am doing God's work, whether YEC is true or TE is true. No matter what is true, people like you are being put to an unecessary choice over a NON-SALVATION issue.

Thanks for sharing. I have received many similar messages and a LOT of positive response from the Christian community over this post (and the identical one in the other forum).

Vance · Sep 25, 2004

Just an update on this thread. In the sister thread over in the Creation and Evolution forum, two different former Christians posted their testimony about why they left Christianity. Both had remarkably similar stories (which are similar to the ones I have seen in my own personal experience working with youth and college age kids). Both were raised in YEC homes and churches, but then learned more and more about the truth behind evolution and came to realize that YEC was not valid. This caused a crisis of faith and, while it was not the sole reason for their abandoning Christianity, it was definitely one of the important ones. They also said that if they had not grown up being taught YEC, they would most likely be Christians still. One even said he had a friend that said that YEC teaching was the primary reason they were NOT seriously considering Christianity.

Also, I have gotten PM's and emails from people who have NOT yet left the fold of Christianity, but are having serious issues because of their YEC upbringing now that they have come to accept evolution. It seems that the Theistic Evolution approach is one that they had not been familiar with until coming to these boards and now see that they can believe in both evolution and the Bible!

Vance · Oct 7, 2004

Since I have recently come under attack for the nature and style of my posts, I thought the best way to defend myself was to explain once again exactly why I post here. This thread does it best.

rmwilliamsll · Oct 8, 2004

Also, I have gotten PM's and emails from people who have NOT yet left the fold of Christianity, but are having serious issues because of their YEC upbringing now that they have come to accept evolution. It seems that the Theistic Evolution approach is one that they had not been familiar with until coming to these boards and now see that they can believe in both evolution and the Bible!

an interesting thing. for the boards are the only legitimate place for me to discuss the issues as it is an out-of-bounds topic for me at church.

just in case the issue comes up on the sermon group.
i intend to delete the .sig link to my blog/ced page/and links list when using the church groups
so i need to use the website to reply to mail, not the email route, too much room for error.
i will not involve myself in any discussions or questions regarding the creation-evolution-design debate
either at church, or on the church related yahoo groups.

to due so violates my promise to uphold the good order and peace of the church.
as a simple church member, versus a church officer, i do not have to subscribe to the WCF.
nor am i expected to. I suspect many in the church are probably pretty unaware of most of the standard's positions.
since i disagree with the standards at the point of 6 24hr day creation, i am obligated to remain silent on the issue and not contradict the clear teaching of the church.
both the WCF and the PCA creation report. the PCA report allows framework interpretation, but expressedly denies its use to TE's.
i've researched the PCA position on CED and the topic of subscriptionism. it does not apply to me, but the promise to uphold the good order and peace of the church does.

5. Do you submit yourselves to the government and discipline of the Church, and promise to study its purity and peace?
from: http://www.pcanet.org/BCO/BCO56-63.htm
essentially i can hold to views contrary to the PCA book of order, but i can not express them, in the context of the church.
this is a weak subscriptionist position, ie subscribe to the body of doctrine as taught in the WCF, which is the wording of the current elders promises.

of course, i can not teach in any way, but that is ok, i am not a teacher just the eternal student.
8 March 2004

my blog entry, which i point members of my church to who read my blog or website.

so i wonder how many people in the pews are silent on the issue?
leaving the field for the YECist to dominate?

Vance · Oct 8, 2004

Yes, I agree completely. I attend a Pentecostal church (which my grandparents helped found and my extended family has been attending for sixty years), and my father was an Assembly of God pastor for thirty years. I attended Fundamentalist Church schools up until my last two years of high school. I have learned that this debate causes more harm than good within these surroundings. I believe that my foremost duty as a church member is to respect the basic theological tenets that the Church stands for. Unfortunately, one of them a literal reading of Genesis 1 and 2 and a YEC view of origins.

And, even more unfortunately, having worked with the youth and college groups in the fundamentalist setting for about 20 years (since I left the youth group myself), I have seen probably 20 to 25 kids and young adults face severe crises of Faith over their YEC upbringing. I counseled all of them, and many were beginning to lose faith in the validity of Scripture since they had come to see evolution, and especially an old earth, as the simple facts. I had to walk a fine line of remaining respectful of the church doctrines while peventing these kids from abandoning their faith. In all but four cases I was able to show them that there were many, many Christians (the majority worldwide, actually) who had no problem accepting evolution and an old earth and still having complete faith in the validity of Scripture.

Those four were lost, despite my best efforts, and I can assure you the primary cause was their inability to reconcile what they had been taught about Creation and what they now knew to be true from the natural evidence. They, too, called me a compromiser and said I was just trying to cling to Christianity even though the evidence contradicted the "plain reading" of Scripture.

Why I post, or "Yes, you can be a Christian and accept evolution"

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