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The way the religion is set up, one may only know Christ through ministers such as evangelists, pastors, teachers. Therefore, I find it impossible separate Christ from His earthly representatives. The only way to do so, would be to posit a "Christ Consciousness" which does not depend upon Bible, apostles or even Christianity itself, which can be experienced in all religions even if they don't recognize it as "Jesus". That is the only way to get around the notions of authority and obedience that are set forth in Scripture, Ecclesiastic structures and evangelical ministries. The Christ is no better than the messenger representing the Christ. If the authoritative messenger is a fallible book, Christ is subordinate to an interpretation of the Bible. If the authoritative messenger is found in apostolic succession, the Bishops decide how Christ is to be revealed. If it is through a Protestant revival, Christ is accepted according to the constraints and definitions placed upon the seeker by the evangelist. The message of Jesus is subject to the Sunday School teacher, the Pope, the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc. Each transmitter of the message fancies themselves to be the authoritative filter of truth or at least the representative of some hierarchy. When it comes to sourcing the understanding of Christs message, the distinction is so blurred between Jesus and his representatives that His message is their message and their message is His message. I cannot find a way to divorce the two so that Christ stands part from the mode of His oral and written transmission. Again, the problem is that whoever or whatever is responsible for that transmission becomes an authority in Christs stead. Revealed truth is not necessary the problem itself, but rather Christianitys historic insistence that it alone represents the source of absolute truth which must be universally applied and assented to. If this were not so from the very beginning, guys like Justin Martyr would not have been arguing with others about how Christianity supersedes and is better than Judaism and paganism. How is it possible to find out what is in Christ, without first digging through the polemics and politics of Christianity? If one comes to the conclusion that Christ is a concept which is not the sole possession of Christianity, but may be found under other names besides Jesus, then Christianity kicks that person out or shuns them, just like they did to Carlton Pearson. If I ever see evidence that people around the world are coming to believe on the Jesus of the Bible without reading a Bible or hearing a sermon, then I will suspect that Christianity is indeed a universal religion revealed supernaturally by a specifically named God who wants humanity to accept Jesus as the embodiment of Absolute Truth. Otherwise, I have no choice but to recognize there are multiple and often contradictory Christ(s) revealed by various preachers, teachers, evangelists, patriarchs and Bible translators. Of course, according to the Bible, there is a Christ and an Anti-Christ. This dualism forces the real Christians to become heresy hunters. Therefore, perhaps the authoritative version of Christianity finds its source rooted in one little prefix in Scripture which defines and shapes its entire worldview, message and attitude. That four-letter prefix is anti. Whoever came up with a non-reconcilable dichotomous concept of Christ versus anti-Christ is to blame for the whole fragmented, argumentative, heresy hunting, dominionist, apocalyptic mess.
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*cough* Sola Scriptura *cough*Tube Socks Dude said:The way the religion is set up, one may only know Christ through ministers such as evangelists, pastors, teachers.
This was stated as intentional in the Bible.Therefore, I find it impossible separate Christ from His earthly representatives.
The Gospel According to Oprah.The only way to do so, would be to posit a "Christ Consciousness" which does not depend upon Bible, apostles or even Christianity itself, which can be experienced in all religions even if they don't recognize it as "Jesus".
So: Invent a new religion by Stamping the name of 'Jesus' and the title 'Christ' on the top. Then call it 'Christian' and market it to the real Christians.That is the only way to get around the notions of authority and obedience that are set forth in Scripture, Ecclesiastic structures and evangelical ministries.
Infallible book.The Christ is no better than the messenger representing the Christ. If the authoritative messenger is a fallible book, Christ is subordinate to an interpretation of the Bible.
Scripture does.If the authoritative messenger is found in apostolic succession, the Bishops decide how Christ is to be revealed.
Excuse me: Sola Scriptura is the central gem of the Protestant revival. How can you rob us of that with this terrible misrepresentation?If it is through a Protestant revival, Christ is accepted according to the constraints and definitions placed upon the seeker by the evangelist.
The message of Jesus is subject to the Sunday School teacher, the Pope,
His message was intended to be sent THROUGH the written scriptures.the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc.
As far as scripture is Concerned: Indeed!When it comes to sourcing the understanding of Christs message, the distinction is so blurred between Jesus and his representatives that His message is their message and their message is His message.
Christ reveals Himself through the written transmission.I cannot find a way to divorce the two so that Christ stands part from the mode of His oral and written transmission.
Exactly. This isn't a problem: This was intended.Again, the problem is that whoever or whatever is responsible for that transmission becomes an authority in Christs stead.
This is a core of the Christian message expounded by God through Himself as Jesus and His students the Apostles.Revealed truth is not necessary the problem itself, but rather Christianitys historic insistence that it alone represents the source of absolute truth which must be universally applied and assented to.
So... the message is consistent from the beginning. Amazing argument against our faith... that it has been consistent since the beginning.If this were not so from the very beginning, guys like Justin Martyr would not have been arguing with others about how Christianity supersedes and is better than Judaism and paganism.
*cough* Sola Scriptura *cough*How is it possible to find out what is in Christ, without first digging through the polemics and politics of Christianity?
Then the historical 'Christ' has no meaning.If one comes to the conclusion that Christ is a concept which is not the sole possession of Christianity,
Because it goes against the verybut may be found under other names besides Jesus, then Christianity kicks that person out or shuns them, just like they did to Carlton Pearson.
So: If people come to faith without actually knowing anything about the faith: Then you will believe?If I ever see evidence that people around the world are coming to believe on the Jesus of the Bible without reading a Bible or hearing a sermon, then I will suspect that Christianity is indeed a universal religion revealed supernaturally by a specifically named God who wants humanity to accept Jesus as the embodiment of Absolute Truth.
Jesus said this would occur and so did His apostles. Pointing out that things are quite consistent with the message of Christianity is not evidence against it.Otherwise, I have no choice but to recognize there are multiple and often contradictory Christ(s) revealed by various preachers, teachers, evangelists, patriarchs
Oy vey.and Bible translators.
There are many anti-Christs actually.Of course, according to the Bible, there is a Christ and an Anti-Christ. This dualism forces the real Christians to become heresy hunters.
Therefore, perhaps the authoritative version of Christianity finds its source rooted in one little prefix in Scripture which defines and shapes its entire worldview, message and attitude. That four-letter prefix is anti. Whoever came up with a non-reconcilable dichotomous concept of Christ versus anti-Christ is to blame for the whole fragmented, argumentative, heresy hunting, dominionist, apocalyptic mess.
Hardly.Great points!
Um... eh? Are you seriously suggesting that each of those terms is synonymous or equatorious?I have found that by not limiting my view of the Divine strictly to a fundamentalist/evangelical/right-wing/conservative-Republican paradigm,
Oddly enough... that "peace" is declared to exist in the same book you and He Who's Name Refers to Lower Extremity Sweat Absorbers.that "peace which passes all understanding" has had an easier time getting through to me.
You and the rest of those promoting this verse in this manner are misreading that passage very badly.Hi there
Thanks for your input. I had a look at Acts 2:17. It is where God says that He'll pour His spirit out to all flesh.
The last days Joel was referring to was the end of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New. It was the end of the age of the Old Covenant. This happened 2,000 years ago.It seems that the Lord is going to cause quite a stirring in the world in the last days.
No. Christ Himself says that most will not be saved.Do you think that the act of God pouring out His spirit to all will lead all to Christ?
This should be the yearning of all believers. So go and preach the Gospel. The Good News. Not the drivel that contradicts the scriptures and claims all will be saved.I have received the Holy Spirit a long time ago, but sometimes I just wish I could get all people to accept Christ. The thought of souls entering eternal damnation is incredible sad.
i would like to know if your having a hard time believing, what are your reasons for believing?Hi everyone.Lately, I have had a lot of trouble with believing in Christianity. I currently am believing in Christianity but I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people to Hell simply for not believing in Him. Also, I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people simply for having sex before marriage. I find it hard to believe in a God who would condemn people at all. Now, I know that some people are going to say that God condemns no one but that we condemn ourselves but to me it is the same thing. Can someone on here help me out with my doubts?
I find it telling that my post listing the long structure of the Biblical case that most will not be saved was entirely ignored.
Um ... eh? is right.Um... eh? Are you seriously suggesting that each of those terms is synonymous or equatorious?
Oddly enough... that "peace" is declared to exist in the same book you and He Who's Name Refers to Lower Extremity Sweat Absorbers.
Might I suggest to you that one reason for this is that we do not share your interpretation of the Scriptures. I think that most of us have examined the concept of biblical inerrancy and found it lacking. Not only do the various books of the Bible contain plainly apparent contradictions among themselves, but, there is also an incongruence between the Bible's view of the world and what we now know to be physical reality. E.g. the sun does not revolve around the earth and no amount of Josh McDowell apologetics can change the fact that the authors of the Bible believed that it did.
Now I understand that your interpretation of the Bible "works" in some way for you. But because you begin from such a different starting point than the rest of us, your posts go largely ignored.
The Apostle Paul was wise to be a Jew among Jews and a Gentile among Gentiles. Beginning at the same point as his audience, he was more likely to be heard.
Don't you think it's unfair that an all powerful God created the universe with the potential for Satan's rebellion, the fall of man, sin and hell, then turned around and made humans like you responsible for causing others to go into eternal torment? If you have to take the blame, then I think you should also have been allowed to share some of God's responsibility in setting this whole thing up at the beginning.The thought of me causing someone to go into eternal darkness is very scary and very sad.
Since it is the name of Jesus by which man is saved, what other name could possibly be powerful enough trump it?The Bible says that no other name than the name of Jesus has been given under heaven by which man shall be saved. It is indeed our mission to tell that to everybody. The thought of me causing someone to go into eternal darkness is very scary and very sad.
Hi there
Thanks for your input. I had a look at Acts 2:17. It is where God says that He'll pour His spirit out to all flesh. It seems that the Lord is going to cause quite a stirring in the world in the last days. Do you think that the act of God pouring out His spirit to all will lead all to Christ?
I have received the Holy Spirit a long time ago, but sometimes I just wish I could get all people to accept Christ. The thought of souls entering eternal damnation is incredible sad.
And having seen many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming about his baptism, he said to them, 'Brood of vipers! who did shew you to flee from the coming wrath? bear, therefore, fruits worthy of the reformation, and do not think to say in yourselves, A father we have -- Abraham, for I say to you, that God is able out of these stones to raise children to Abraham, and now also, the axe unto the root of the trees is laid, every tree therefore not bearing good fruit is hewn down, and to fire is cast. 'I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire, whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'-Matthew 3 Young's Literal Translation
Nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form it, Why me didst thou make thus? hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honor, and the one to dishonor? And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, -Romans 9 Young's literal translation
Chuck Norris'?
Yes, but amusing.Now that was bad!
Ah, it is God's job to save souls. To say it is up to us to "accept" or "get others to accept" is making us the ones responsible for our own salvation. It is no act of ours that saves us.
Hopefully, Regular Guy can explain better than I. This is the Lutheran teaching on salvation, and I cannot explain it very well!
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