Why I Don't Believe In Atheism's Creation Myth

Honkytnkmn · Sep 8, 2010

rockaction said:
So the only reason you don't rape, murder, and steal is because you think God would punish you if you did? THAT is morality to you?

No that is not correct.

NIV: Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God created us not in his physical image but in more a spiritual image. Instilling a moral and just code into our being. We also have free will, which means we are free to ignore those qualities and some ignore more of those qualities than others. With the introduction of sin in the world we tend to ignore what is right for self gratification. (to a degree depending on the individual)

Cabal · Sep 8, 2010

Mobiosity said:
Personally, I don't see that I have a choice. I know that God is and He is interested in every facet of our lives. I also know He's not a cosmic gumball machine that gives me everything I want.

Doesn't that contradict the notion that God gives us choice?

Cabal · Sep 8, 2010

Skaloop said:
Some go as far as making up God so they don't have to face personal responsibility for their wrongs because all those wrongs will be forgiven if they just believe. Then they make up their own rules of right and wrong and say that those are God's rules for right and wrong.

Maybe my Poe-dar is off today, but you do know the Bible addresses this, right?

rockaction · Sep 8, 2010

Honkytnkmn said:
No that is not correct.

NIV: Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

God created us not in his physical image but in more a spiritual image. Instilling a moral and just code into our being. We also have free will, which means we are free to ignore those qualities and some ignore more of those qualities than others. With the introduction of sin in the world we tend to ignore what is right for self gratification. (to a degree depending on the individual)

All you're doing is identifying a human trait (the conscience) and claiming it comes from God. That isn't useful. The conscience is still the same old conscience that everybody uses. By superimposing God over it, you're just adding redundancy. In this model, atheists can be just as moral as Christians, because regardless, we all have the same "nature"...the same sense of right and wrong. So what is the advantage of being a Christian, again? Clearly, you don't have enhanced access to moral thinking...

Skaloop · Sep 8, 2010

Cabal said:
Maybe my Poe-dar is off today, but you do know the Bible addresses this, right?

Does it? In what way? I know they will have to face God for all that they have done, but not much beyond that.

(No Poe, but I am not deeply familiar with the Bible, so I am interested to see how it deals with the idea. If it does, then I'll drop that argument.)

Honkytnkmn · Sep 8, 2010

rockaction said:
All you're doing is identifying a human trait (the conscience) and claiming it comes from God. That isn't useful. The conscience is still the same old conscience that everybody uses. By superimposing God over it, you're just adding redundancy. In this model, atheists can be just as moral as Christians, because regardless, we all have the same "nature"...the same sense of right and wrong. So what is the advantage of being a Christian, again? Clearly, you don't have enhanced access to moral thinking...

You are correct! It is the same old conscience that everyone uses! Atheists can, are and in some instances more moral than some Christians. Christians don't have a monopoly on morals.

The conscience you refer too though is the image of God I talked about. Without this image or stamp there would be no reason to have a conscience or morals.

Doveaman · Sep 8, 2010

Skaloop said:
Who doesn't want to admit that they've sinned? I've sinned, I freely admit it. I've stolen, lied, insult ohers, hurt other, fought others; I have no problem admitting that I have sinned.

You do know what sin is, right?

Mobiosity · Sep 8, 2010

Cabal said:
Doesn't that contradict the notion that God gives us choice?

No. It's my choice to follow God. I know that He is, that He loves me, and that following His word will make for a happier and more peaceful life for me. I choose to follow Him. You could have the same experience and choose to follow your own way instead of His.

Skaloop · Sep 8, 2010

Doveaman said:
You do know what sin is, right?

You mean in a "going against God" sort of way? I've heard of that definition before. If God exists, then I am going aganst Him, and I freely admit that.

What do you say sin is?

MoonLancer · Sep 8, 2010

Honkytnkmn said:
You are correct! It is the same old conscience that everyone uses! Atheists can, are and in some instances more moral than some Christians. Christians don't have a monopoly on morals.

The conscience you refer too though is the image of God I talked about. Without this image or stamp there would be no reason to have a conscience or morals.

If we followed the image of god, morality would look something like this

I go up to you, point a gun to your head and give you an ultimatum that you must love me, If you choose not to love me, and the gun goes off, you have killed yourself or done this action upon yourself.

The real world doesn't work that way.

Honkytnkmn · Sep 8, 2010

MoonLancer said:
If we followed the image of god, morality would look something like this

I go up to you, point a gun to your head and give you an ultimatum that you must love me, If you choose not to love me, and the gun goes off, you have killed yourself or done this action upon yourself.

The real world doesn't work that way.

Yea, that's kinda a warped view. From my studies of the bible a better analogy would be this.

God: "Don't jump in that quicksand you will sink and die."

Us: "I don't believe you" (jump in the quicksand)

God: (Holds out his hand) "Grab my hand and trust me, I'll save you."

Us: "No! I can do it on my own"

Mobiosity · Sep 8, 2010

MoonLancer said:
If we followed the image of god, morality would look something like this

I go up to you, point a gun to your head and give you an ultimatum that you must love me, If you choose not to love me, and the gun goes off, you have killed yourself or done this action upon yourself.

The real world doesn't work that way.

That is completely ludicrous. What kind of people do you associate with?

MoonLancer · Sep 8, 2010

Mobiosity said:
That is completely ludicrous. What kind of people do you associate with?

have you ever heard

"god doesn't send you to hell, you do?"

I have and I think its pretty ludicrous. More so then my previous statement. No one sends themselves to hell. If anyone is sent to hell its by the one holding all the cards.

Doveaman · Sep 8, 2010

Skaloop said:
You mean in a "going against God" sort of way? I've heard of that definition before. If God exists, then I am going aganst Him, and I freely admit that.

What do you say sin is?

I agree with your definition.

MoonLancer · Sep 8, 2010

Honkytnkmn said:
Yea, that's kinda a warped view. From my studies of the bible a better analogy would be this.

God: "Don't jump in that quicksand you will sink and die."

Us: "I don't believe you" (jump in the quicksand)

God: (Holds out his hand) "Grab my hand and trust me, I'll save you."

Us: "No! I can do it on my own"

This ignores the fact god created the quicksand and knew by saying the exact words he did that said person would jump in. Are we to assume god knew nothing about what the snake was doing? is god that easily fooled? is he unaware of the complexities of causality?

Greg1234 · Sep 8, 2010

Honkytnkmn said:
My question is, You obviously don't believe in God (which is of course your choice) But why do you care so much that others do? It doesn't effect your life at all that I believe in God so why try to convince me or ridicule me for my beliefs?

Look at Tomatoman's icon. He's Anglican.

Anglicanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are many Anglicans here.

AV1611VET · Sep 8, 2010

MoonLancer said:
have you ever heard

"god doesn't send you to hell, you do?"

I have and I think its pretty ludicrous. More so then my previous statement. No one sends themselves to hell. If anyone is sent to hell its by the one holding all the cards.

No one is going to Hell that doesn't deserve to go.

Does that sound like good news to you?

(YES or NO, please.)

Cabal · Sep 8, 2010

Skaloop said:
Does it? In what way? I know they will have to face God for all that they have done, but not much beyond that.

Romans 5 and 6 (particularly 6) deals with the notion that despite having grace we should not resume sinning. The key verses seem to be:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? - Romans 6:1-2

The whole thrust of those chapters is that being saved, i.e. liberated from sin, means that one is not cavalier with forgiveness. Now, you may not agree with the explanation Paul gives, but the verses I posted show that it is at least condemned.

(No Poe, but I am not deeply familiar with the Bible, so I am interested to see how it deals with the idea. If it does, then I'll drop that argument.)

I know you're not a Poe, I just thought it might have been a devil's advocate argument.

Doveaman · Sep 8, 2010

Tomatoman said:
Let's look at that idea shall we?

Okay.

God sent his son down to earth as a blood sacrifice so we can all have our sins forgiven.

Correct.

Forgiven by who? God presumably.

Correct.

(We'll gloss over the obvious objection that jesus undergoing crucifixion is a complete irrelevance as far as compensating for sins goes,

Why gloss over?

and anyway, what constitutes a sin?

Opposition to who God is.

Oh, it does get you in a tangle doesn't it?)

Nope.

One can't help wondering why god doesn't just forget about sacrificing his son/himself and just forgive all sins.

You are the one who is wondering, not us.

It would seem much simpler and less bloody.

There is no simpler way to forgive your sins, His blood is absolutely necessary. Its either His blood or yours. Your choice.

Wouldn't make as good a story though, granted, but then your god never was one for just doing the sensible thing.

Thats because the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom - 1 Cor 1:25.

No, he does the most revolting thing he can think of.

Its only revolting to men who consider themselves wiser than God:

God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe...For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom -1 Cor 1:21-25

Or would it be more accurate to say that humans are impressed by the bloodthirstiness of the story?

Depends on what you mean by bloodthirstiness.

Jesus said to them, I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:53-54.

I would say we all are thirsty for blood, even if we dont know it yet.

I wonder.

So does Alice?

It's a disgusting tale whichever way you look at it.

Perhaps it is your way that is disgusting and you are only looking at it your way.

Honkytnkmn · Sep 8, 2010

MoonLancer said:
This ignores the fact god created the quicksand and knew by saying the exact words he did that said person would jump in. Are we to assume god knew nothing about what the snake was doing? is god that easily fooled? is he unaware of the complexities of causality?

I meant this as an analogy, I'm not ignoring anything.

You have a choice, to be with God or not to be with God.

We chose to sin, in doing this we separated ourselves from God.

In order that we may still commune with God He gave us a way out, Jesus. Now we have a choice, accept that our sins have been paid for and forgivin or not.

If you choose not to be with God that is your choice.

Let me ask you this. If you didn't want to be with God, why would God force you to be with him?

Hell to me means eternal separation from God. (I may or may not differ on this interpretation with my other Christian friends) Now if God is what the bible says (Love, compassion, Justice etc...) imagine an eternity without these things, knowing all along it was your choice. That would be hell.

Why I Don't Believe In Atheism's Creation Myth

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