why I believe in the Eucharist

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe the Eucharist is truly the body and blood of Jesus because the Holy Spirit told me it was true. The Word of God confirms that to be true.

The RCs are awaiting on you with open arms then.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Is that a dirty sock I smell?

Albion, I thank you once again for stepping in. Our belief in the Real Presence is a common bond. I will not quibble with those who will not even recognize or admit that.
I do suspect that this is probably more to do with being against "Rome" than anything else....this is why the poster will not even recognize that a majority of non-Catholic's hold to it as well. that's alright though, it's just a sock account of someone else here.
This thread has run its course.......

 

[calluna]

Is that a dirty sock I smell?

Albion, I thank you once again for stepping in.

No wonder the papacy needed the Inquisitions. Even the laundry makes it jumpy!

Our belief in the Real Presence is a common bond.

It's much easier to eat bread now and again than it is to suffer persecution.

a majority of non-Catholic's hold to it as well.

The road is broad that leads to destruction.

 

[Albion]

The RCs are awaiting on you with open arms then.

...or the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Old Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, and the Reformed Churches--in all, about 70% of all Christians.

I'm a little uneasy when anyone starts talking about what they believe as the result of a direct communication from the Holy Spirit, but there's nothing sectarian about believing that the Eucharist or Holy Communion is the body and blood of Jesus. Most Christians do.

 

[calluna]

Most Christians do.

The road is broad that leads to destruction.

 

[yashualover]

Ministry www.carm.org

Roman Catholicism




There is so much about the Catholic Church that is fascinating. They teach many orthodox things, and then they teach so many non orthodox doctrines. Following are some of them in an easy-to-cut-and-paste arrangement.

1. Baptism saves
   1. ". . Baptism is the first and chief sacrament of forgiveness of sins because it unites us with Christ, who died for our sins and rose for our justification, so that 'we too might walk in newness of life,'" (Catechism of the Catholic Church par. 977).
   2. "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC, par. 2020).
   3. But the Bible says:
      1. "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast," (Eph. 2:8-9).
      2. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
2. Grace
   1. "Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it" (CCC, par. 2023).
3. Justification
   1. "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (CCC, par. 2020).
   2. "If any one saith, that it is an imposture to celebrate masses in honour of the saints, and for obtaining their intercession with God, as the Church intends; let him be anathema. (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 5)
   3. "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema" (Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).
   4. "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).
   5. Verses on Justification to counter the RC position
      1. "being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus," (Rom. 3:24).
      2. "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).
      3. "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
      4. "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
      5. "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
      6. "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him," (Rom. 5:9).
      7. "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved," (Rom. 10:9).
      8. "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).
      9. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).
   6. Trent anathematized anyone who claimed assurance of salvation (Canon 14 on Justification), contrary to the Bible (1 John 5:13). In Roman Catholic salvation initial justification is granted to you via baptism (Catechism of the Catholic Church par 2020; 1247), successive sacred rites (CCC 1248), not by faith alone (CCC 1815), but with service (CCC 1816).
   7. Justification can be lost by sinning. To regain the grace of justification you must participate in the sacraments and perform penance (CCC, par. 1446; Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. i).
4. Mary per Catholicism
   1. "Holy Mary, Mother of God...we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: 'Let it be to me according to your word.' [Lk 1:38] By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: 'Thy will be done,' (CCC 2677).
   2. "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the 'Mother of Mercy,' the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care." (CCC 2677).
   3. [Mary] "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'" (CCC, par. 969)
   4. Mary is "The mother of the members of Christ," (CCC par. 963). She was "Preserved free from all stain of original sin," (CCC, par. 966). She is "Queen over all things" (par. 966). By Mary's prayers, she delivers souls from death (par. 966). Mary, "...by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation....
   5. "The Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (CCC par. 969). "The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, are an epitome of the whole Gospel," (par. 971).
   6. Mary, "...when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven..." (par. 974). "...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420). See quote in Context
   7. "Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son" (Vatican Council II, p. 421). "This mother...is waiting and preparing your home for you," (Handbook for Todays Catholic, p.31).
5. Mary per the Bible
   1. Mary, the very blessed woman, lost her virginity. "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took her as his wife, 25 and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus," (Matt. 1:25).
   2. Mary the very blessed woman, needed a savior. Only sinners need saviors: "And Mary said: 'My soul exalts the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior,'" (Luke 1:46-47).
6. Jesus' brothers
   1. There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25,"But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, They hated Me without a cause."
   2. Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
7. Penance
   1. "Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification..." (CCC, par. 1446).
   2. "By Christ's will, the Church possesses the power to forgive the sins of the baptized and exercises it through bishops and priests normally in the sacrament of penance ," (CCC par. 986).
   3. "As a means of regaining grace and justice, penance was at all times necessary for those who had defiled their souls with any mortal sin. . . .The Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, c. i).
8. Purgatory
   1. The 2nd Vatican Council, p. 63, "The truth has been divinely revealed that sins are followed by punishments. Gods holiness and justice inflict them. Sins must be expiated. This may be done on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and trials of this life and, above all, through death. Otherwise the expiation must be made in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments."
9. Salvation
   1. "We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 1821).
   2. "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC, par. 2010).
10. Terms
    1. Assumption - the taking of the body and soul of Mary, by god, into glory. Catholic doctrine, apparently, does not state whether or not Mary died, but tradition holds that she died and was immediately afterward assumed into heaven both body and soul.
    2. Mass - a reenactment of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross in a ceremony performed by a priest. This ceremony is symbolically carried out by the priest and involves
    3. Mortal Sin - a serious and willful transgression of God's Law. It involves full knowledge and intent of the will to commit the sin. If left unrepentant, can damn someone to eternal hell. '
    4. Purgatory - a place of temporary punishment where the Christian is cleansed from sin before they can enter into heaven.
    5. Rosary - A string of beads containing five sets with ten small beads. Each set of ten is separated by another bead. It also contains a crucifix. It is used in saying special prayers, usually to Mary where the rosary is used to count the prayers.
    6. Transubstantiation - The teaching that the bread and wine in the communion supper become the body and blood of the Lord Jesus at the Consecration during the Mass.
    7. Venial Sin - A sin but not as bad as Mortal Sin. It lessens the grace of God within a person's soul.
    2. Verses dealing with Tradition
       1. Matt. 15:4-6, Jesus said, "For God said, Honor your father and mother, and, He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him be put to death 5But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or mother, Anything of mine you might have been helped by has been given to God, 6he is not to honor his father or his mother. And thus you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition."
       2. Mark 7:8-9, "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men. 9He was also saying to them, You nicely set aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition."
       3. Col. 2:8, "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."
    3. Refuting Tradition
       1. "But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater," (Heb. 7:7). The context deals with Melchizedek blessing Abraham, but the principle that the lesser is blessed by the greater is still true. If the Catholic appeals to scripture to validate tradition, then he is appealing to scripture as the superior source in order to validate his tradition, the lesser being tradition.
11. Transubstantiation
    1. Verses they use to support it.
       1. Matt. 26:28, "for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins."
       2. John 6:52-53, "The Jews therefore began to argue with one another, saying, How can this man give us His flesh to eat? 53 Jesus therefore said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.'"
          • Yet, Jesus said, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life," (John 6:63).
       3. 1 Cor. 11:27, "Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord."
    2. Re: Transubstantiation: 1st, the Supper was instituted before Jesus' crucifixion; hence, how could it be a re-sacrifice since it hadn't happened when Jesus instituted it? 2nd, transub. violates Levitical law forbidding drinking of blood (Lev. 17:14). 3rd, it violates the incarnation - for a man (Jesus) cannot be physically omnipresent as transub. would physically require.
12. Eucharist
    1. How is it possible for the Eucharist to be the body and blood of Christ? Isn't a man only in one place at one time as Jesus was in the incarnation? He is still a man (1 Tim. 2:5). Therefore, the incarnation means that the man Jesus is only at one place at a time. Therefore, the Catholic doctrine of the Eucharist violates the doctrine of the incarnation of Christ.
    2. The Eucharist is the broken body and shed blood of Christ, right? When Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper he said it was his body and blood, but how can that be since he was sitting right there? Was he sitting there and also physically in the bread and wine, too?
    3. The Eucharist is the broken body and shed blood of Christ, right? When Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper he said it was his body and blood, but he hadn't yet been crucified, so how could it be his shed blood and broken body?
13. Questions for Catholics
    1. What rituals must you perform in order to obtain the grace of God?
       1. "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace," (Rom. 11:6).
    2. Are you being good enough to keep yourself saved?
    3. If your salvation is dependent, in part, upon your ability to repent of your sins, what do you do with those since you have not repented of because you don't know about them.

 

[Rick Otto]

Literalizing metaphors earns mockerey.
It renders what is truth into an absurdity for which the only cover is "mystery".
The mystery for me is why people want to do that.

 

[Sphinx777]

Literalizing metaphors earns mockerey.
It renders what is truth into an absurdity for which the only cover is "mystery".

The term sacred mysteries generally denotes the area of supernatural phenomena associated with a divinity or a religious ideology.

The term is used in Eastern Christianity to refer to what the Western Church currently calls Sacraments and Sacramentals. In the Early Church they were kept hidden from the pagans — the so-called Disciplina arcani — lest they become objects of ridicule. As the Age of Persecution ended, the secrecy was gradually relaxed. But the term continued to be used. Originally the term "Mystery" was used in both the East and the West, as shown from the "Mystagogical Homilies" of St. Cyril of Jerusalem and the work, "On the Mysteries" by St. Ambrose of Milan.

The terms Sacrament and Sacramental are terms which the Western Church has carefully defined in Canon Law. Thus, for instance, the Council of Trent declared there to be exactly seven sacraments. The Eastern Churches, in contrast, have never defined the Mysteries in such precise terms. And, though the Western Church teaches that the consecrated bread and wine of the Eucharist are one Sacrament, the Divine Liturgy refers to the Eucharist as the Mysteries, in the plural. Orthodox Christians have always received Holy Communion in both species (both the Body and the Blood), and even reserve both in the tabernacle.

The word mysterion (μυστήριο&#957 is used 27 times in the New Testament. It denotes not so much the meaning of the modern English term mystery, but rather something that is mystical. In the biblical Greek, the term refers to "that which, being outside the unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation."

For the Eastern Orthodox, Christian life is centered in the Mystery of the Incarnation of Christ, the union of God and man. However, the redemption of man is not considered to have taken place only in the past, but continues to this day through theosis. The Sacraments, or Sacred Mysteries are the most important means by which the faithful may obtain union with God, provided they are received with faith after appropriate preparation. Orthodox Christians believe that God is present everywhere and fills all things by his Divine grace, and that all of creation is, in some sense, a "sacrament." However, they believe that "He is more specifically and intensively present in [those] particular and reliable manners which He Himself has established," i.e., in the Sacred Mysteries.

Though Orthodox instructional materials may list seven Sacred Mysteries (Baptism, Chrismation, Confession, Holy Communion, Marriage, Ordination, and Unction), it must be understood that the term is not limited to these seven. The Sacred Mysteries can be defined as "those holy acts through which the Holy Spirit mysteriously and invisibly confers Grace (the saving power of God) upon man."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The road is broad that leads to destruction.

broad....constricted the Way.......

Matt 7:13 Enter ye thru the cramped Gate, that broad/plateia <4116> the Gate and spacious the Way the one leading into the Destruction, and many are the ones entering thru Her. 14 that cramped the Gate and having been constricted the Way, the one leading into the Life and few are the ones finding Her.

Reve 11:8 and the bodies of them upon the broad-place/plateiaV <4113> of the city, the great, which-any is being called spiritually Sodom and Egypt where also the Lord of them [*us] was crucified

 

[Rick Otto]

Broadway... "There's no business like show business"...(get a hanky)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icr71H1nb3Q