• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Why I believe in God

T

talquin

Guest
Here's the evidence I find most convincing that God exists.

Our universe had a beginning. The Big Bang is accepted by nearly all scientists.
If the universe had a beginning, either there is an eternal multiverse or succession of universes, or God created it. To say it just happened without a cause I see as highly irrational, but for sake of argument I'll pretend it is possible.
Please explain why if it wasn't due to an eternal multiverse or succession of universes that it could only have been a god. Perhaps if it wasn't an eternal multiverseor succession of universes the answer is that you don't know?
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
'God' is an umbrella term including any being that possesses intelligence, goodness, power, eternity, and preeminence (is greater than any other extant being.) Mormons believe God is physical, most Christians that he is triune, Hindus that he is dreaming (I think), Sikhs that he is composed of an unknowable essence and a knowable manifestation, etc. All these are theories about the same entity.

How do you determine which of these theories is likely true?

Hey Percivale, I'm very interested to know your response to this. To me, this is one of the fundamental problems with religion. Using the term 'theory' very loosely, they all have theories about the nature, personality and intentions of God. The vast majority doggedly insist that their theory unquestionably reflects certain immutable truths about God, and that all other theories are either outright false or distorted derivatives of their own theory. How do you determine which of these theories is likely true?
 
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
If you use the
quote.gif
button at the bottom of the post, it will tag your response with my name, and then I can see that you have responsed to my post.

The graph makes it clearer. I've been using atheist to mean gnostic atheist, and agnostic to mean agnostic atheist.
As an ignostic atheist, I am not even on that chart.

I'm a semignostic theist I guess, as I'm more interested in probability than certainty, and find that what one can know depends on one's access t o data, which is different for different people
What other data might you have access to that I don't?
It is, but I still find this statement unbelievable. Isn't a truth statement a proposition that is either true or false, and atheism the proposition that there is no God?
That would put the "atheist" in the impossible position of firstly defining what is meant by "God", then positing that such a thing does not exist.

Atheism cannot be a truth statement.
Would you be comfortable discussing the existence of dark energy with someone who defined it as 'the imaginary force?
Bad analogy. "Dark energy" is a tentative label put on the working hypothesis for certain behaviors of astronomical objects in independent verifiable observations. Evidence for its existence is not in dispute, while the mechanism (or necessary rewrite of the laws of physics) has yet to be determined.

A definition that assumes the position being defended is not that helpful.
Indeed, such as your definition for "atheism".

If God exists, miracles are his actions, if not, they are imaginary. Does that work for you?
You would first have to define "miracle" is some testable, falsifiable manner. Examples, as well: Were you able to find your missing car keys? Did you get that perfect parking spot in front of the theatre? Or did your foot grow back after it was bitten off by the shark?

Then you agree with my statement, except that deluded was too strong a word.
The word does have negative connotations. Would you consider yourself "deluded" by optical illusions?

Cool Optical Illusions Compilation 2014 [NEW] - YouTube
 
Upvote 0

Percivale

Sam
Site Supporter
Feb 13, 2012
924
206
Southern Indiana
✟167,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As an ignostic atheist, I am not even on that chart.
What does that mean?

What other data might you have access to that I don't?
I haven't witnessed spectacular or undeniable miracles, but have heard of many who have. Consider near death experiences, in which people met God, and learned things they couldn't have known naturally (like who was outside the operating room, etc.) You won't convince them there is no God. Some are probably making it up, but I find it unreasonable to say all are. One doesn't counterfeit money that doesn't exist, rather what is in currency.

That would put the "atheist" in the impossible position of firstly defining what is meant by "God", then positing that such a thing does not exist.

Atheism cannot be a truth statement.
Everybody knows roughly what is meant by God. I think most atheists would say that none of the common definitions match up to an existing entity, which would be a truth statement.
(quote from Mark on the topic)
Atheism is being unconvinced of the proposition that there is a God, such that one lacks belief in such a being. Just that.
Is theism being unconvinced of the proposition that there is no God? I think it more reasonable to assign the term agnostic to those who are unconvinced of either proposition.

Bad analogy. "Dark energy" is a tentative label put on the working hypothesis for certain behaviors of astronomical objects in independent verifiable observations. Evidence for its existence is not in dispute, while the mechanism (or necessary rewrite of the laws of physics) has yet to be determined.
I think it's a fairly good analogy. God is a tentative label put on the hypothesis of a personal origin of the universe, the mechanism of whose existence has yet to be determined.

You would first have to define "miracle" is some testable, falsifiable manner. Examples, as well: Were you able to find your missing car keys? Did you get that perfect parking spot in front of the theatre? Or did your foot grow back after it was bitten off by the shark?
Yes. While your first 2 examples may possibly be miracles, they may not and are not testable, as the last one is.

Archaeopterix: Hey Percivale, I'm very interested to know your response to this. To me, this is one of the fundamental problems with religion. Using the term 'theory' very loosely, they all have theories about the nature, personality and intentions of God. The vast majority doggedly insist that their theory unquestionably reflects certain immutable truths about God, and that all other theories are either outright false or distorted derivatives of their own theory. How do you determine which of these theories is likely true?
I agree, the vast majority of religious people have not been reasonable in their approach. I don't see that as meaning religion can't be reasonable. Most appeal to direct revelation, and while I believe there have been some revelations, I don't see that any are certainly from God or totally reliable. What is certain is that if God designed the universe and the human soul, there is much that can be deduced about his nature from the natural world and from history. Sure there's some uncertainty, but at least plenty of material to work with. I recently read in Rousseau's Emile, in his section called 'confession of a savoyard vicar' an interesting bit of reasoning along those lines. Unlike Rousseau, I deduce God's goodness from his wisdom rather than his power (and the latter two attributes from his creation of the universe). I agree with Sam Harris' understanding of the ground of morality, and say the wellbeing of all conscious creatures is the only moral system that can be consistently applied, thus the only one God would choose.

Talquin:
If someone could provide 100% proof that your god doesn't exist, would you revise your belief?
Yes, how about you? Of course, 100% proof almost never is available, and probability and values are both involved in forming our beliefs.

Please explain why if it wasn't due to an eternal multiverse or succession of universes that it could only have been a god. Perhaps if it wasn't an eternal multiverseor succession of universes the answer is that you don't know?
As near as I can tell, those are the only other possibilities, and I wonder why atheists don't try to defend them, unless it's that they don't want to make any potentially falsifiable claims. True, we don't know everything and I could be wrong, but since we have the need to explore and seek truth, and tend to believe something, I won't let the lack of 100% certainty stop me from reasoning and theorizing.
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Everybody knows roughly what is meant by God.

...

I think it's a fairly good analogy. God is a tentative label put on the hypothesis of a personal origin of the universe, the mechanism of whose existence has yet to be determined.

Why a personal origin? You say that everybody knows roughly what is meant by God, but I'm not sure that is the case. According to some conceptions, God is not personal at all. According to others, there are many gods, or multiple entities that collectively serve the role of God.

I agree, the vast majority of religious people have not been reasonable in their approach. I don't see that as meaning religion can't be reasonable. Most appeal to direct revelation, and while I believe there have been some revelations, I don't see that any are certainly from God or totally reliable. What is certain is that if God designed the universe and the human soul, there is much that can be deduced about his nature from the natural world and from history. Sure there's some uncertainty, but at least plenty of material to work with. I recently read in Rousseau's Emile, in his section called 'confession of a savoyard vicar' an interesting bit of reasoning along those lines. Unlike Rousseau, I deduce God's goodness from his wisdom rather than his power (and the latter two attributes from his creation of the universe). I agree with Sam Harris' understanding of the ground of morality, and say the wellbeing of all conscious creatures is the only moral system that can be consistently applied, thus the only one God would choose.

I'm glad that you see the problem; many theists do not. I still think you've left my question unanswered though. In asking how we determine which of the many theories is likely true, what I'm really asking is how we are able to acquire knowledge about deities. Various knowledge claims about God have been made, regarding his nature, his personality, and even his intentions for us. How do we determine whether these claims are true?
 
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
What does that mean?

"Ignosticism is the view that any religious term or theological concept presented must be accompanied by a coherent definition. Without a clear definition such terms cannot be meaningfully discussed." wiki
I haven't witnessed spectacular or undeniable miracles, but have heard of many who have.
I have heard of many people that have been abducted by aliens, and returned. Are you concerned about being abducted by aliens? Testimony without corroborating evidence is of little value.

Consider near death experiences, in which people met God, and learned things they couldn't have known naturally (like who was outside the operating room, etc.) You won't convince them there is no God. Some are probably making it up, but I find it unreasonable to say all are.
Provide one case in which this "learned things they couldn't have known" has been independently verified.

One doesn't counterfeit money that doesn't exist, rather what is in currency.
?

Everybody knows roughly what is meant by God.
God is a character in a book. I do not speak for everyone.

See this post here. I have no idea what this guy means by "God". I am not sure he does.

I think most atheists would say that none of the common definitions match up to an existing entity, which would be a truth statement.
I find attempts to shift the burden of evidence to others to be intellectually dishonest.

(quote from Mark on the topic)
Is theism being unconvinced of the proposition that there is no God? I think it more reasonable to assign the term agnostic to those who are unconvinced of either proposition.
The terms are not mutually exclusive. Theism is the belief in deities, agnosticism is a position on knowledge. Why are you so hung up on labels?

I think it's a fairly good analogy. God is a tentative label put on the hypothesis of a personal origin of the universe, the mechanism of whose existence has yet to be determined.
Your analogy fails at your presupposition of a "personal origin of the universe". The "dark energy" label is applied to *actual* observed motion, not presupposed motion.

Yes. While your first 2 examples may possibly be miracles, they may not and are not testable, as the last one is.
Define "miracle" in a testable, falsifiable manner.

I agree, the vast majority of religious people have not been reasonable in their approach. I don't see that as meaning religion can't be reasonable. Most appeal to direct revelation, and while I believe there have been some revelations, I don't see that any are certainly from God or totally reliable. What is certain is that if God designed the universe and the human soul, there is much that can be deduced about his nature from the natural world and from history. Sure there's some uncertainty, but at least plenty of material to work with. I recently read in Rousseau's Emile, in his section called 'confession of a savoyard vicar' an interesting bit of reasoning along those lines. Unlike Rousseau, I deduce God's goodness from his wisdom rather than his power (and the latter two attributes from his creation of the universe). I agree with Sam Harris' understanding of the ground of morality, and say the wellbeing of all conscious creatures is the only moral system that can be consistently applied, thus the only one God would choose.
Define "soul".

Talquin: Yes, how about you? Of course, 100% proof almost never is available, and probability and values are both involved in forming our beliefs.

As near as I can tell, those are the only other possibilities, and I wonder why atheists don't try to defend them, unless it's that they don't want to make any potentially falsifiable claims.
Atheism is only a position on the existence of deities.
True, we don't know everything and I could be wrong, but since we have the need to explore and seek truth, and tend to believe something, I won't let the lack of 100% certainty stop me from reasoning and theorizing.
When you get to reasoning and theorizing, let me know.:)
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
(quote from Mark on the topic) Is theism being unconvinced of the proposition that there is no God?

No, theism is being convinced that there is a God (or gods), such that one believes in the existence of that God (or gods). Atheism is the lack of theistic belief.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

PsychoSarah

Chaotic Neutral
Jan 13, 2014
20,522
2,609
✟102,963.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
In the same manner, you could test for the existence of Santa by asking him for a new bike for Christmas.

You first.

I actually tested Santa by asking for something I knew my mother could not get me: life for a fairy toy I had. Santa failed. And failed the "tests" besides that as well.
 
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
I actually tested Santa by asking for something I knew my mother could not get me: life for a fairy toy I had. Santa failed. And failed the "tests" besides that as well.

At least when you stop believing in Santa, there is no threat of burning hell forever. :)

285427-albums5860-50960.jpg
 
Upvote 0

Jeremy E Walker

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2014
897
16
✟1,156.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
In the same manner, you could test for the existence of Santa by asking him for a new bike for Christmas.

You first.

I agree with you. The proof is in the pudding. Claims are shown to be true to us when we ourselves behold them coming to fruition in the realm of practical experience.
 
Upvote 0

Davian

fallible
May 30, 2011
14,100
1,181
West Coast of Canada
✟46,103.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Ignostic
Marital Status
Married
I agree with you. The proof is in the pudding. Claims are shown to be true to us when we ourselves behold them coming to fruition in the realm of practical experience.
No, claims are shown to be true when they can be demonstrated to others as not simply being the result of personal experience, such as self deception, coincidence, and confirmation bias.

Are you going to talk to Santa like he really exists?
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,738
58
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟126,756.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
I actually tested Santa by asking for something I knew my mother could not get me: life for a fairy toy I had. Santa failed. And failed the "tests" besides that as well.

If you believe in fairies, clap your hands! Belief makes them exist. If it doesn't work, you didn't clap hard enough or believe hard enough.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

Archaeopteryx

Wanderer
Jul 1, 2007
22,229
2,608
✟78,240.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

Jeremy E Walker

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2014
897
16
✟1,156.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
No, claims are shown to be true when they can be demonstrated to others as not simply being the result of personal experience, such as self deception, coincidence, and confirmation bias.

Are you going to talk to Santa like he really exists?

You are wrong.


Why?

I could make a claim, i.e. that I am not guilty of a crime of which I have been accused and not be able to demonstrate to anyone that my claim is true and the claim could still be true. The truthfulness of my claim is determined by whether or not it corresponds with the actual state of affairs which it claims to, not whether or not I can prove it or demonstrate it. Surely you have heard of people maintaining their innocence while being accused of and even convicted of a crime only later to be vindicated and acquitted due to some turn of events which demonstrate that their claim was true all along?

I said all of that to be charitable to you.

I for one am convinced God has demonstrated in a very public way that Christ was who He said He was. This was done when God raised Christ from the dead in accordance with scripture.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0