Why I am still a Seventh-day Adventist

[VictorC]

I don't know about how permanent the weekly Sabbath will be in eternity -- that's another study

The very nature of the weekly sabbath is antithetical to a permanent rest.

The weekly sabbath lasted only one day, and ended.
Then you worked for 6 days.
Then the sabbath repeated.
And lasted only one day, and ended again.
And so on - the sabbath was a periodic rest that repeated over and over, never providing a permanent rest.

Look again at God's rest that is documented in the Genesis account and described again in Hebrews 4.
Did this event ever repeat?
Did God's rest described in Genesis 2 ever end?
No.
This is the rest we have entered into, and not the sabbaths that Colossians 2:16-17 called a "shadow" of things to come (note the plural used in the text, inclusive of all sabbaths). As Hebrews 4:10 states, "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His".

So, my position is that it is not yet time -- if there ever comes such a time -- to forget the Sabbath day that was ordained from the beginning of creation.

This is where you conclude an origin for the sabbath that you haven't been able to document, because you have not percieved that God's rest was not repetitive and never ended. Jesus stated that the sabbath was "made for man", and distinguishes the sabbath apart from God's rest that had its origin in the Genesis account.

This perception you have is what caused you to write this in the other post directed to me:

well, since I have not denied Christ's redemption and/or rejected entering into His rest, I don't think you should view my position as an assertion that have done just that. It would be nice if you would accept my word for it, that I do accept Christ's redemption and have chosen to enter into His rest.

You don't perceive that a claim to keep the weekly sabbath is inherently contradictory to a claim of entering into God's rest. You remain in the shadow of the temporal, and have been taught that you will not be redeemed and given entrance into the permanent rest God offers. Remember, you made the weekly sabbath a litmus test your "salvation" depends on, which demands compliance on your part, and is a works-based soteriology.

 

[Pythons]

Would moving the date of the cross by three days have made a difference in Miller's calculations? Probably not, since he had given himself approximately a year, give or take, for his calculations to be correct.

If October 22, 1844 means anything at all - moving the date of the Cross by three days invalidates SDAism.

Of course, this is a subject I have not thought about for a long time now. I might be wrong on this.

I could be as well - one thing that's beyond doubt for either of us is that if we use a Gregorian calendar 14 Nisan equates to a Wed and not a Friday. William Miller, along with the rest of the world knew this well but as Miller "needed" 31 A.D. and the Passover that year to fall on the 6th day of the week he had to use a different calendar.. William Miller felt the same way about the sabbath as victor so it didn't matter to him that the Sabbath was celebrated at a different time.

Well, ask Victor if this is what he is proposing. I don't think he is saying that Jesus died on the 6th day of the week. I think he is saying that Jesus died on Wednesday, in the middle of the week. I could be wrong. Victor?

Victors view is irrelevant to my point because Ellen White affirmed that Jesus was put on the cross in 31 A.D. at Passover and that it happend on a Friday. Anyone can tell you Nisan 14 of 31 A.D., according to a moon chart, fell on a Gregorian Wed. The problem is that Ellen codified Jesus died on a Friday and according to William Miller Friday was actually a Wed...

What is difficult to understand is why, if 22 October 1844 validates the SDA system, do SDA not observe the Sabbath according to the calendar required to sync Miller's prophetic scheme? It's not the same "Sabbath" and anyone who spends a few minutes at calendation site can confirm that.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA, if you don't like the term ex-SDA, I won't use it. It wasn't my intention to be combative. Is "former SDA" better?

Yes. Thank you.

That's a good question. I have actually thought about this at times, and, yes, if my basic doctrinal beliefs were to change to where I no longer believed in God's existence, my reason for existence would change and disappear.

What if the change were a bit less drastic? Let's say, for example, that you continued to believe in God's existence but your understanding of eschatology/end time events were to change. Would this impact your reason for existence?

BFA

 

[Laodicean]

If October 22, 1844 means anything at all - moving the date of the Cross by three days invalidates SDAism.

How so, Pythons? I had not thought that the SDA denomination needed to have October 22, 1844, be a date that would make or break their theology. But then, I'm not a theologian. Maybe it does invalidate them. Maybe it doesn't. It really does not seem important to me, but maybe it is important. Maybe it isn't. I'll have to think on this some more.

For now, from my layperson's point of view, whether the expected prophetic time ended in 1843 or, say, October 19, 1844 instead of October 22, I don't think it makes a difference, the number of days that the date varies. Besides, what difference would a few days make in the concept of Sabbathkeeping, anyway, or how would it affect the concept of the second advent?

Victors view is irrelevant to my point because Ellen White affirmed that Jesus was put on the cross in 31 A.D. at Passover and that it happend on a Friday. Anyone can tell you Nisan 14 of 31 A.D., according to a moon chart, fell on a Gregorian Wed. The problem is that Ellen codified Jesus died on a Friday and according to William Miller Friday was actually a Wed...

I'd be interested in a quotation where EGW says that Jesus died on a Friday, using the specific word "Friday." I know in the Desire of Ages, Chapter 80, she mentions the Sabbath a number of times, but never the word "Friday." She says, on p. 774, "That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb."

Do you have some other source that shows that the word "Friday" was used?

What is difficult to understand is why, if 22 October 1844 validates the SDA system, do SDA not observe the Sabbath according to the calendar required to sync Miller's prophetic scheme? It's not the same "Sabbath" and anyone who spends a few minutes at calendation site can confirm that.

As I said above, I don't see why the specific date of October 22, 1844 has to be the only correct date in order to validate the SDA system of beliefs.

And regardless of the various forms of calendation that exist, I would think the most reliable source for determining which day is the correct Sabbath day, would be the Jewish community. They know which day is the Sabbath day.

 

[Laodicean]

What if the change were a bit less drastic? Let's say, for example, that you continued to believe in God's existence but your understanding of eschatology/end time events were to change. Would this impact your reason for existence?

BFA

BFA, if my belief that we are living in the end of time were to change to where I became convinced that Jesus' return would not be for another few thousand years, then I would just sigh a sigh of resignation and continue to live as I have, accepting that I'd have to wait until my time of resurrection in order to meet my Lord.

And if I became convinced that the 10 commandments no longer applied, then I'd have to steel myself to ignore the teaching of Jesus re the keeping of the commandments, where He amplified (Matt. 5) what it means to commit adultery, for instance.

The problem for me is, if I were to say, I am no longer under obligation to keep the commandment that says, "You shall not kill" because, hey, I'll just know, through the Spirit that it is wrong to kill my brother, I'd simply be acknowledging that the sixth commandment still applies after all. This would be a dichotomy that would confuse me no end -- to discard the keeping of the 10 commandments, while claiming that, in the Spirit, they should be kept. (For, surely, no one would recommend that because we are no longer under the law, that we don't need to fight an urge to, say, kill another.)

So, I don't know how to answer that second part -- what would I do if I did not believe that the law still applied? I don't know how to reconcile the contradiction.

 

[VictorC]

I had not thought that the SDA denomination needed to have October 22, 1844, be a date that would make or break their theology. But then, I'm not a theologian. Maybe it does invalidate them. Maybe it doesn't. It really does not seem important to me, but maybe it is important. Maybe it isn't. I'll have to think on this some more.

Consult the Pen of Liability:

The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and central pillar of the Advent faith was the declaration, "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." [DAN. 8:14.] These had been familiar words to all believers in the Lord's soon coming. By the lips of thousands was this prophecy repeated as the watchword of their faith. All felt that upon the events therein foretold depended their brightest expectations and most cherished hopes. These prophetic days had been shown to terminate in the autumn of 1844. In common with the rest of the Christian world, Adventists then held that the earth, or some portion of it, was the sanctuary. They understood that the cleansing of the sanctuary was the purification of the earth by the fires of the last great day, and that this would take place at the second advent. Hence the conclusion that Christ would return to the earth in 1844. {GC88 409.1}

October 1844 is pivotal to Adventism.
The return of Jesus Christ was replaced with the Shut Door (and endorsed by a claim of divine inspiration), which was later replaced with the Investigative Judgment. The doctrines of the SDA church mutated in order to accomodate this date Adventism depends on.

As Donald Barnhouse noted in the mid-1950's when he critiqued Adventism along with Dr. Walter Martin prior to publication of Kingdom of the Cults:

The [sanctuary] doctrine is, to me, the most colossal, psychological, face-saving phenomenon in religious history. ... We personally do not believe that there is even a suspicion of a verse in Scripture to sustain such a peculiar position, and we further believe that any effort to establish it is stale, flat, and unprofitable. ... [It is] unimportant and almost naïve.

This is where October 1844 has taken the SDA church.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA, if my belief that we are living in the end of time were to change to where I became convinced that Jesus' return would not be for another few thousand years, then I would just sigh a sigh of resignation and continue to live as I have, accepting that I'd have to wait until my time of resurrection in order to meet my Lord.

And if I became convinced that the 10 commandments no longer applied, then I'd have to steel myself to ignore the teaching of Jesus re the keeping of the commandments, where He amplified (Matt. 5) what it means to commit adultery, for instance.

The problem for me is, if I were to say, I am no longer under obligation to keep the commandment that says, "You shall not kill" because, hey, I'll just know, through the Spirit that it is wrong to kill my brother, I'd simply be acknowledging that the sixth commandment still applies after all. This would be a dichotomy that would confuse me no end -- to discard the keeping of the 10 commandments, while claiming that, in the Spirit, they should be kept. (For, surely, no one would recommend that because we are no longer under the law, that we don't need to fight an urge to, say, kill another.)

So, I don't know how to answer that second part -- what would I do if I did not believe that the law still applied? I don't know how to reconcile the contradiction.

It sounds as though your identity is inextricably connected to the things you currently believe. May God be with you should you ever realize your own propensity to misunderstand.

The reality is that there are none who understand. This includes me. We all see through a glass darkly. If our identity is so wrapped up in our own human understanding, we have set ourselves up for another great disappointment.

BFA

 

[Pythons]

How so, Pythons? I had not thought that the SDA denomination needed to have October 22, 1844, be a date that would make or break their theology. But then, I'm not a theologian. Maybe it does invalidate them. Maybe it doesn't. It really does not seem important to me, but maybe it is important. Maybe it isn't. I'll have to think on this some more.

Victor accurately summerized the status of 22 October 1844 as the rock of Gibraltar for SDA......

William Miller's final prophetic time scheme was the basket early SDA put all their eggs in.......
......Ellen codified that Miller's prophetic time scheme was correct whereas the math was concerned.........
.......The only correction being that Miller got the event wrong.

For now, from my layperson's point of view, whether the expected prophetic time ended in 1843 or, say, October 19, 1844 instead of October 22, I don't think it makes a difference, the number of days that the date varies. Besides, what difference would a few days make in the concept of Sabbathkeeping, anyway, or how would it affect the concept of the second advent?

The whole system collapses without that specific date. Ellen was explicit that Jesus died in 31 A.D........
........Ellen unfortunately was unaware that Passover on that year was a Wed.

William Miller understood this perfectly along with every other person who attempted to pinpoint the year of the cross........
For this reason Miller appealed to a Karite Jewish calendar that even differed from the Karites of his day.....

Miller's time scheme required the Passover in 31 A.D. to be the date of the cross......
And additionally required the specific date of Christ's death........

This data was used to calculate the Day of Atonement in 1844.......
.....Which Ellen claimed initiated the Sanctuary operation in heaven.

I'd be interested in a quotation where EGW says that Jesus died on a Friday, using the specific word "Friday." I know in the Desire of Ages, Chapter 80, she mentions the Sabbath a number of times, but never the word "Friday." She says, on p. 774, "That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb."

Do you have some other source that shows that the word "Friday" was used?

You summed it up well there. Here is some additional quotes;

Great Controversy 327][/size]
"In the autumn of A.D. 27 Christ was baptized by John . . ."In the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." In A.D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Lord was crucified

Great Controversy 327: "In the autumn of A.D. 27 Christ was baptized. . . . .
In A.D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Lord was crucified."

On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain

On the sixth day of the week they had seen their Master die

If Jesus died on the 6th day of the week and Passover in 31 A.D. was on a Wed the only way to have the day after that 6th day be a "seventh day sabbath" is to use the calendation method William Miller was forced to use. The early SDA Church was well aware of this paradox and directly addressed it by saying that there was "no answer" for the paradox.

The following words can be found in the July 1883 SDA yearbook

Those who disbelieve in the seventh day sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are readily answered with the exception of one, THE CROSS, this is the great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible sabbath.

If the sabbath is understood to be observed at a "specific time" and it's proved that the sabbath used to incept the SDA church is not the sabbath they currently hold liturgy on every seven days what sense is there in the slander of my Church because it holds it's primary Liturgy on Sunday? Why all the mark of the beast stuff related to changing days, etc when it's obvious the Sabbath is whatever day a person deems it to be?

As I said above, I don't see why the specific date of October 22, 1844 has to be the only correct date in order to validate the SDA system of beliefs.

Unless everything was made up as they went along it has to be a specific date with the Gregorian Month of April and the specific day of the 27th within that month. How could the Day of Atonement be be calculated without it?

And regardless of the various forms of calendation that exist, I would think the most reliable source for determining which day is the correct Sabbath day, would be the Jewish community. They know which day is the Sabbath day.

Yes, here is what they say;

The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle . . . Originally, the New Moon was celebrated in the same way as the Sabbath; gradually it became less important while the Sabbath became more and more a day of religion and humanity, of religious meditation and instruction, of peace and delight of the soul

Miller simply needed to have the specific date for Christ's death be in 31 A.D. at the Jewish Passover and have it sync with a 6th, 7th & 8th (1st day of the week). To pull this off Miller used an ancient Karite Lunar calendar and viola - the Sabbath is still the "7th" day of the week however in 31 A.D. it was a Wed.

To me it just seems odd to put so much faith in a prophetic scheme then claim a few days does not matter. Not a beef mind you I just think it's interesting.

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

How so, Pythons? I had not thought that the SDA denomination needed to have October 22, 1844, be a date that would make or break their theology. But then, I'm not a theologian. Maybe it does invalidate them. Maybe it doesn't. It really does not seem important to me, but maybe it is important. Maybe it isn't. I'll have to think on this some more.
​

Victor accurately summerized the status of 22 October 1844 as the rock of Gibraltar for SDA......

Well, unfortunately, I'm finding Victor to be not a reliable source for a number of things, so I don't know that his say-so is sufficient here.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

For now, from my layperson's point of view, whether the expected prophetic time ended in 1843 or, say, October 19, 1844 instead of October 22, I don't think it makes a difference, the number of days that the date varies. Besides, what difference would a few days make in the concept of Sabbathkeeping, anyway, or how would it affect the concept of the second advent?
​

The whole system collapses without that specific date. Ellen was explicit that Jesus died in 31 A.D........
........Ellen unfortunately was unaware that Passover on that year was a Wed.

William Miller understood this perfectly along with every other person who attempted to pinpoint the year of the cross........
For this reason Miller appealed to a Karite Jewish calendar that even differed from the Karites of his day.....

Miller's time scheme required the Passover in 31 A.D. to be the date of the cross......
And additionally required the specific date of Christ's death........

This data was used to calculate the Day of Atonement in 1844.......
.....Which Ellen claimed initiated the Sanctuary operation in heaven.

From my recall -- and I'll ned to do some refreshing -- the 1844 date was not based on 31 A.D. but on 457 BC. 2300 days (years) after 457 BC brings us down to 1843-44. So I don't understand why you are using the 31 AD date to corroborate the 1844 date. Help me out here.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

I'd be interested in a quotation where EGW says that Jesus died on a Friday, using the specific word "Friday." I know in the Desire of Ages, Chapter 80, she mentions the Sabbath a number of times, but never the word "Friday." She says, on p. 774, "That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb."

Do you have some other source that shows that the word "Friday" was used?
​

You summed it up well there. Here is some additional quotes;


Originally Posted by Ellen [SIZE=2[/B]

Great Controversy 327][/size]
"In the autumn of A.D. 27 Christ was baptized by John . . ."In the midst of the week He shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease." In A.D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Lord was crucified ​

no mention of the word "Friday" here. However, on another note, "In the midst of the week" certainly adds to the idea of a Wednesday crucifixion, both prophetically and literally. Also, the Greek/English Interlinear Bible uses the plural of Sabbath, saying "after the Sabbaths."

​

Originally Posted by Ellen White GC 327

Great Controversy 327: "In the autumn of A.D. 27 Christ was baptized. . . . .
In A.D. 31, three and a half years after His baptism, our Lord was crucified." ​

no mention of Friday here, either.

​

Originally Posted by Ellen White GC 399

On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain ​

again, no mention of Friday.

​

Originally Posted by Ellen White Desire of Ages page 794

On the sixth day of the week they had seen their Master die​

Now, that's closer. But did she mean the sixth day of the passover week or the sixth day of the regular weekly cycle? The sixth day of the passover week would be fall on a Wednesday if the high Sabbath of the passover was on Thursday.

Also, in the chapter on "The Walk to Emmaus," the two disciples recounted to Jesus (Who they did not recognize at first) the events of the crucifixion and added, "We trusted that it had been He which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done." If Jesus had been crucified on Friday, they would not have said, "This is the third day," but "this is the second day or the first day." But I digress.......

I suppose EGW's "sixth day of the week" could be interpreted to mean Friday, just as "preparation day" could mean Friday. But since this was a Passover time period, both those terms could also refer to the Passover week instead of the literal week.

But maybe I'm just indulging in apologetics here. ??

​

The following words can be found in the July 1883 SDA yearbook

​

Originally Posted by Yearbook

Those who disbelieve in the seventh day sabbath bring against it numerous objections, all of which are readily answered with the exception of one, THE CROSS, this is the great, the unanswerable objection to the Bible sabbath.
​

If the sabbath is understood to be observed at a "specific time" and it's proved that the sabbath used to incept the SDA church is not the sabbath they currently hold liturgy on every seven days what sense is there in the slander of my Church because it holds it's primary Liturgy on Sunday? Why all the mark of the beast stuff related to changing days, etc when it's obvious the Sabbath is whatever day a person deems it to be?

I am not following you here, Pythons? What slander? I would never want to slander you or your church. I consider you to be my brother, and if anything I say comes across as slander, please point it out clearly and I shall apologize and ask your forgiveness.

And why do you think that the Sabbath is whatever day a person deems it to be? I admit I'm getting kind of lost here. Please elaborate.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

As I said above, I don't see why the specific date of October 22, 1844 has to be the only correct date in order to validate the SDA system of beliefs.
​

Unless everything was made up as they went along it has to be a specific date with the Gregorian Month of April and the specific day of the 27th within that month. How could the Day of Atonement be be calculated without it?

As I said, I need to do a refresher on this particular subject, but from what I recall, the Day of Atonement concept is not reliant on the date of the cross. Maybe you should start a thread on this subject and I'll be happy to join and learn or relearn or unlearn.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

And regardless of the various forms of calendation that exist, I would think the most reliable source for determining which day is the correct Sabbath day, would be the Jewish community. They know which day is the Sabbath day.
​

Yes, here is what they say;


Originally Posted by Universal Jewish Enc page 410

The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle . . . Originally, the New Moon was celebrated in the same way as the Sabbath; gradually it became less important while the Sabbath became more and more a day of religion and humanity, of religious meditation and instruction, of peace and delight of the soul​

I meant only that the Jews know which day is the seventh day, not that they know -- anymore, anyway -- why they keep the Sabbath.
​

Miller simply needed to have the specific date for Christ's death be in 31 A.D. at the Jewish Passover and have it sync with a 6th, 7th & 8th (1st day of the week). To pull this off Miller used an ancient Karite Lunar calendar and viola - the Sabbath is still the "7th" day of the week however in 31 A.D. it was a Wed.

again, I don't think the 1844 date was calculated based on the date of the crucifixion. It was based on 457 BC. You are really making me have to go back and study into this

To me it just seems odd to put so much faith in a prophetic scheme then claim a few days does not matter. Not a beef mind you I just think it's interesting.

yes, it is interesting. Maybe I'll get back to you on this when I refresh my memory.

 

[VictorC]

Victor accurately summerized the status of 22 October 1844 as the rock of Gibraltar for SDA......

Well, unfortunately, I'm finding Victor to be not a reliable source for a number of things, so I don't know that his say-so is sufficient here.

That quote I furnished was from Ellen White, stating the "foundation and central pillar of the Advent faith" was 1844 derived from a bad interpretation of Daniel 8:14.

Hence, your statement equates to Ellen White not being a reliable source.

 

[Pythons]

How so, Pythons? I had not thought that the SDA denomination needed to have October 22, 1844, be a date that would make or break their theology. But then, I'm not a theologian. Maybe it does invalidate them. Maybe it doesn't. It really does not seem important to me, but maybe it is important. Maybe it isn't. I'll have to think on this some more.

If you are willing to continue to discuss this with me it will become most clear to you.

From my recall -- and I'll ned to do some refreshing -- the 1844 date was not based on 31 A.D. but on 457 BC. 2300 days (years) after 457 BC brings us down to 1843-44. So I don't understand why you are using the 31 AD date to corroborate the 1844 date. Help me out here.

October 22 1844 was not based on 31 A.D. any more then it was on 457 B.C.........
.....Those two dates were simply "part of" Miller's 2300 day prophetic time scheme.

For a prophetic time scheme to reach completion all things mentioned in the prophecy must take place........
.......Therefore the following math demonstrates some of the scheme.

457 - 2300 = 1843

The initial predicted date for the return of Christ by Miller in 1843........
.....Obviously failed causing Miller to re-think his time scheme.

The seventy weeks and 2300 days have the identical initiation point ( 457 )........
........The midst of the last week of the seventy weeks was not Wed but halfway through the final prophetic week that was syncronized at the start with the 2300 days.

Seventy weeks in Miller's prophetic time scheme equated to 490 years...........
....Further interpreted to mean Christ was cut off in the middle of the last 7 year prophetic time period.

The time scheme Miller developed and subsequently endorced by Ellen required the seventieth week of Dan to include the years from AD 27 - 34.........
............ Christ was understood to be "cut off" in the midst of the final week of seventy.

Miller and Ellen White believed that by pinpointing the date of the cross they could count forward 3.5 years to the end of "that week" then simply count back 490 years AKA 490 days of prophetic time which equated to 70 weeks and arrive back to the command to rebuild Jerusalem - in the Autumn of 457.

The 2300 day prophetic time scheme developed by Miller requires the 70 weeks prophetic time scheme as much as it does the initiation date of 457.

Did that help?

I'd be interested in a quotation where EGW says that Jesus died on a Friday, using the specific word "Friday." I know in the Desire of Ages, Chapter 80, she mentions the Sabbath a number of times, but never the word "Friday." She says, on p. 774, "That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb."

Let's get that done for you.

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away

Jews at that time numbered their week days and had names for only two of those week days.........
.......preparation (6th day) and 7th (sabbath day)

I am not following you here, Pythons? What slander? I would never want to slander you or your church. I consider you to be my brother, and if anything I say comes across as slander, please point it out clearly and I shall apologize and ask your forgiveness.

I live one block away from the Church I attend and 5 blocks away from an SDA Church.......
Which sent me an invite to "explore the prophetic" in which I was informed my Church was the great harlot of St John's Apoc...........

And why do you think that the Sabbath is whatever day a person deems it to be? I admit I'm getting kind of lost here. Please elaborate.

Ellen White explicitly said Christ was killed in 31 A.D. at the Jewish Passover on the day of prep.......
.........14 Nisan in 31 A.D. was a Wed and not a Gregorian Friday.

Miller understood this fact perfectly however for the 2300 day prophetic time scheme to be validated........
Christ had to die in 31 A.D. because that was required by his 70 week time scheme........

...........The only way for the Christ to die in 31 A.D. at the Passover was to "move the Sabbath".
Which Miller did by using a calendar that placed the Sabbath on a Gregorian / Julian Thursday........

Anyone can easily calculate 14 Nisan in 31 A.D. and in each case it is shown to be a Wed........
.........Which proves that SDA do not observe the same sabbath that was used to incept their religion.

In other words - the sabbath is when and where SDA need it to be..........
.......Yet they hold explore the prophetic meetings where they suggest the Catholic Church is associated with the Beast power mentioned in Apoc.
......

 

[AzA]

October 22 1844 was not based on 31 A.D. any more then it was on 457 B.C.........
.....Those two dates were simply "part of" Miller's 2300 day prophetic time scheme...

Or, in visual language (click to zoom):

 

[Joe67]

The anticipation of the general time of the Messiah's arrival was based on the prophecies.

The anticipation of the location of his arrival was based upon the prophecies.

The development of sin is the greater indicator of the fulfillment of the prophecies.

Joe

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Loadicean

How so, Pythons? I had not thought that the SDA denomination needed to have October 22, 1844, be a date that would make or break their theology. But then, I'm not a theologian. Maybe it does invalidate them. Maybe it doesn't. It really does not seem important to me, but maybe it is important. Maybe it isn't. I'll have to think on this some more.
​

If you are willing to continue to discuss this with me it will become most clear to you.

Sure, let's continue the discussion.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

From my recall -- and I'll ned to do some refreshing -- the 1844 date was not based on 31 A.D. but on 457 BC. The 2300 days (years) after 457 BC brings us down to 1843-44. So I don't understand why you are using the 31 AD date to corroborate the 1844 date. Help me out here.
​

October 22 1844 was not based on 31 A.D. any more then it was on 457 B.C.........
.....Those two dates were simply "part of" Miller's 2300 day prophetic time scheme.

For a prophetic time scheme to reach completion all things mentioned in the prophecy must take place........
.......Therefore the following math demonstrates some of the scheme.

457 - 2300 = 1843

The initial predicted date for the return of Christ by Miller in 1843........
.....Obviously failed causing Miller to re-think his time scheme.

The seventy weeks and 2300 days have the identical initiation point ( 457 )........
........The midst of the last week of the seventy weeks was not Wed but halfway through the final prophetic week that was syncronized at the start with the 2300 days.

Seventy weeks in Miller's prophetic time scheme equated to 490 years...........
....Further interpreted to mean Christ was cut off in the middle of the last 7 year prophetic time period.

The time scheme Miller developed and subsequently endorced by Ellen required the seventieth week of Dan to include the years from AD 27 - 34.........
............ Christ was understood to be "cut off" in the midst of the final week of seventy.

Miller and Ellen White believed that by pinpointing the date of the cross they could count forward 3.5 years to the end of "that week" then simply count back 490 years AKA 490 days of prophetic time which equated to 70 weeks and arrive back to the command to rebuild Jerusalem - in the Autumn of 457.

Ummm...that is not how the date of 457 was arrived at. There was no counting back. The prophecy says, "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks of years and sixty-two weeks of years" (Daniel 9:25). You count forward from that date, not backwards from some supposed event.

The decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus to grant that Jerusalem be restored and rebuilt is confirmed historically as 457 BC. The full copy of the decree is given in Ezra 7, and the decree is recorded in Chaldaic or Eastern Aramaic, instead of Hebrew like the rest of the book. Counting forward 69 prophetic years (or 483 years) brings us to 27 AD (factoring in the four years BC of the end of Herod's reign and the birth of Jesus). The last week or seven prophetic years conclude the 70 weeks (or 490 years) devoted to the Jews, and that is cut off from the 2300 days. In the midst of the prophetic final week (as well as -- how appropriate -- the midst of the literal week) Jesus was crucified. Now, regardless of whether you agree with the exact date of the crucifixion or not, it has nothing to do with the rest of the 2300 days/years ending in 1843/44.

I think more important than the exact date, though, is what is represented to have happened after that date. What is it about the times that we are now living in that is different and/or more important than any other time in earth's history? I think we aren't seeing the forest because of this one particular tree.

The 2300 day prophetic time scheme developed by Miller requires the 70 weeks prophetic time scheme as much as it does the initiation date of 457.

Yes, but which comes first? I submit that the 457 date is essential and must come first in order to test the authenticity of the 70-week prophecy. If nothing happened historically at the end of the 483 years of the 490 devoted to the Jews, then the 457 date is useless and we are left scratching our heads. But when Messiah showed up precisely on time in the 70th week, and the events prophesied of Him happened exactly as prophesied, then that clinches the 457 date, and it can be used as a reliable starting point for the 2300 years.

Did that help?

Only to realize that you did not have all your facts straight. But that's okay. No one is expected to "get it right" every time. We all are entitled to our fair share of mistakes.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

I'd be interested in a quotation where EGW says that Jesus died on a Friday, using the specific word "Friday." I know in the Desire of Ages, Chapter 80, she mentions the Sabbath a number of times, but never the word "Friday." She says, on p. 774, "That was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded, signifying that the Sabbath had begun. The Passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while He to whom it pointed had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb."
​

Let's get that done for you.


Originally Posted by John 19,31

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away
​

Jews at that time numbered their week days and had names for only two of those week days.........
.......preparation (6th day) and 7th (sabbath day)

But whenever there was a Sabbath, be it the weekly Sabbath or a ceremonial Sabbath, wouldn't there automatically be a preparation day preceding it? So if we are talking about the Passover week's high Sabbath, that Sabbath day should also have a preparation day before it, right?


Originally Posted by Laodicean

I am not following you here, Pythons? What slander? I would never want to slander you or your church. I consider you to be my brother, and if anything I say comes across as slander, please point it out clearly and I shall apologize and ask your forgiveness.
​

I live one block away from the Church I attend and 5 blocks away from an SDA Church.......
Which sent me an invite to "explore the prophetic" in which I was informed my Church was the great harlot of St John's Apoc...........

Oh, dear. Strong language, both by your neighboring SDA church and by John the Revelator! It does kind of make me cringe. Who does the Catholic Church interpret the harlot to be? I'd be interested to get your perspective.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

And why do you think that the Sabbath is whatever day a person deems it to be? I admit I'm getting kind of lost here. Please elaborate.
​

Ellen White explicitly said Christ was killed in 31 A.D. at the Jewish Passover on the day of prep.......

.........14 Nisan in 31 A.D. was a Wed and not a Gregorian Friday.

and a day of preparation would come before any Sabbath, right? Not just the weekly Sabbath?

Miller understood this fact perfectly however for the 2300 day prophetic time scheme to be validated........

Christ had to die in 31 A.D. because that was required by his 70 week time scheme........

Well, I don't think that Miller made Christ die in 31 A.D., no matter how much he might have wanted to validate his time line. Maybe you could phrase that a little differently?

...........The only way for the Christ to die in 31 A.D. at the Passover was to "move the Sabbath".

Which Miller did by using a calendar that placed the Sabbath on a Gregorian / Julian Thursday........

oops, you lost me here. Miller placed the Sabbath on a Thursday?

Anyone can easily calculate 14 Nisan in 31 A.D. and in each case it is shown to be a Wed........

.........Which proves that SDA do not observe the same sabbath that was used to incept their religion.

yes, you have totally lost me, Pythons. Really. Maybe we can try again.

 

[Pythons]

Ummm...that is not how the date of 457 was arrived at. There was no counting back. The prophecy says, "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks of years and sixty-two weeks of years" (Daniel 9:25). You count forward from that date, not backwards from some supposed event.

Counting back was the Millerite way of affirming the correctness of 457.....
........Did you look at the chart AzA posted?

The decree of Artaxerxes Longimanus to grant that Jerusalem be restored and rebuilt is confirmed historically as 457 BC. The full copy of the decree is given in Ezra 7, and the decree is recorded in Chaldaic or Eastern Aramaic, instead of Hebrew like the rest of the book. Counting forward 69 prophetic years (or 483 years) brings us to 27 AD (factoring in the four years BC of the end of Herod's reign and the birth of Jesus). The last week or seven prophetic years conclude the 70 weeks (or 490 years) devoted to the Jews, and that is cut off from the 2300 days. In the midst of the prophetic final week (as well as -- how appropriate -- the midst of the literal week) Jesus was crucified. Now, regardless of whether you agree with the exact date of the crucifixion or not, it has nothing to do with the rest of the 2300 days/years ending in 1843/44.

The terminus of Miller's 2300 evening and morning prophetic time scheme requires a crucifixion on Jewish Passover in 31 A.D............
...........Passover in ( 14 Nisan ) 31 A.D. occured on a Wed.

I think more important than the exact date, though, is what is represented to have happened after that date. What is it about the times that we are now living in that is different and/or more important than any other time in earth's history? I think we aren't seeing the forest because of this one particular tree.

The tree has been cut down and landed on the roof of the house.......
......Which has allowed outsiders to look in and see what's been going on.

Yes, but which comes first? I submit that the 457 date is essential and must come first in order to test the authenticity of the 70-week prophecy. If nothing happened historically at the end of the 483 years of the 490 devoted to the Jews, then the 457 date is useless and we are left scratching our heads. But when Messiah showed up precisely on time in the 70th week, and the events prophesied of Him happened exactly as prophesied, then that clinches the 457 date, and it can be used as a reliable starting point for the 2300 years.

457 becomes worthless without the other key events confirming the prophetic interpretation...........
.......Paramount in that list of events is the date for the cross which Miller had to have in 31 A.D.

Only to realize that you did not have all your facts straight. But that's okay. No one is expected to "get it right" every time. We all are entitled to our fair share of mistakes.

What facts would those be that I got wrong??

But whenever there was a Sabbath, be it the weekly Sabbath or a ceremonial Sabbath, wouldn't there automatically be a preparation day preceding it? So if we are talking about the Passover week's high Sabbath, that Sabbath day should also have a preparation day before it, right?

An appeal to a prep day prior to a ceremonial sabbath (?) does not put humpty dumpty back together again...........
......Simply because Scripture states Christ's death directly proceeded a high sabbath.

The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for "that" sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away

And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before "the" sabbath

At the setting of the sun on the evening of the preparation day the trumpets sounded signifying that the sabbath had begun.

The Adventist Bible research website claims that Jews would blow a trumpet to mark the start of the seventh day sabbath...........
.........http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/sabbathbegin.pdf

According to SDA sources Christ was killed on "Friday"

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/AHM/AHM18440918-V08-07__G.pdf#view=fit (page 4)

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/AHM/AHM18440925-V08-08__G.pdf#view=fit ( also page 4 )

And on the day the passover was eaten he was to be sacrificed

According to White Jesus was sacrificed on the day the passover was eaten........
.........Passover was eaten in the evening of 14 Nisan.

Between 26 A.D. and 36 A.D. Nisan 14 only fell on a Friday twice........
..........Being April 8, 30 A.D. and April 3, 33 A.D.

How do you calculate a high sabbath which does not include a regular seventh day sabbath?
............If you require more SDA archived statements claiming Christ died on a "Friday" just ask.

Oh, dear. Strong language, both by your neighboring SDA church and by John the Revelator! It does kind of make me cringe. Who does the Catholic Church interpret the harlot to be? I'd be interested to get your perspective.

So John the Revelator simply used the same strong language against the Catholic church and the SDA were just promulgating it. I see. I guess it's a universal teaching within SDA.

And why do you think that the Sabbath is whatever day a person deems it to be? I admit I'm getting kind of lost here. Please elaborate.

To SDA it obviously is any day they need it to be as evidenced by Miller's time scheme........
..........Which required the seventh day sabbath to fall on the passover in 31 A.D. when it didn't.

and a day of preparation would come before any Sabbath, right? Not just the weekly Sabbath?

Day of preparation which proceeded 14 Nisan in 31 A.D............
.........Because Ellen said Jesus "slept in the gave" on 15 Nisan.

The body of Jesus was hastily placed in the tomb because of the near approach of the Sabbath, that the disciples might keep the day according to the commandment. The two Marys were the last at the sepulcher. This was a never-to-be-forgotten Sabbath to the sorrowing disciples, and also to the priests, rulers, scribes, and people. The passover was observed as it had been for centuries, while the antitypical lamb which it prefigured, had been slain by wicked hands, and lay in Joseph's tomb,

These types were fulfilled, not only as to the event, but as to the time. On the fourteenth day of the first Jewish month, the very day and month on which for fifteen long centuries the Passover lamb had been slain, Christ, having eaten the Passover with His disciples, instituted that feast which was to commemorate His own death as "the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." That same night He was taken by wicked hands to be crucified and slain

Well, I don't think that Miller made Christ die in 31 A.D., no matter how much he might have wanted to validate his time line. Maybe you could phrase that a little differently?

To make his ( Miller's ) prophetic time scheme sync with the Gospel accounts.......
.......Miller certainly did "make Christ die in 31 A.D.".

oops, you lost me here. Miller placed the Sabbath on a Thursday?

Nisan 14 in 31 A.D. was a WED and if Jesus died that same day before the sun went down.......
.......The evening of the 14th would start the ceremony of the seventh day Sabbath ( Nisan 15 )

Like I said previously, William Miller REQUIRED 31 A.D. to be the year Christ was killed...........
......Miller needed to sync that year with the Jewish Passover which is easy.


The Passover in 31 A.D. did not sync with a Gregorian Friday, Sat, Sun however..........
..........Therefore Miller was required to use a calendation system which MOVED the seventh day sabbath so that it would sync with the Gospels.

You do realize how Nisan 14 is calculated by the Jews today..........
......And how it was calculated by the Jews of Jesus' day.
And how Miller said it was calculated so that he could attain a date for the cross in 31 A.D.????????

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Ummm...that is not how the date of 457 was arrived at. There was no counting back. The prophecy says, "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks of years and sixty-two weeks of years" (Daniel 9:25). You count forward from that date, not backwards from some supposed event.
​

Counting back was the Millerite way of affirming the correctness of 457.....
........Did you look at the chart AzA posted?

How did you determine, from that chart, that Miller counted backwards? Or am I to just take your word that somehow, somewhere, you just knew that Miller did actually count backwards? (Not that it matters to me how he arrived at his dates. I don't need Miller when it is clearly there in the Bible, available for anyone to count forwards on their own steam.)

And yes, I did look at the chart AzA posted. I see nothing in there that will tell me that Miller counted backwards. I did not comment on AzA's contribution because I don't know where she stands in this, and I don't want to repeat my earlier mistake of assuming anything.


(Delete repetitive or uselessly derisive material.)


Originally Posted by Laodicean

Only to realize that you did not have all your facts straight. But that's okay. No one is expected to "get it right" every time. We all are entitled to our fair share of mistakes.
​

What facts would those be that I got wrong??

Fact 1: The way the 1844 date was calculated was by counting forwards from an established Biblical/historical date. You have them counting backwards.

Fact 2: Miller needed a reliable start date for both the 2300 day and 70-day prophecy. This start date was 457 BC, not a 31AD date.

Fact 3: EGW understood Miller's position and accepted the 457 starting date long before she began receiving visions. So even if you can show that Miller was wrong (which you can't) her support of his position says nothing about her position as a prophet.

By the way, as a side note, two men, William Foy and Hazen Foss also received visions similar to EGW's, before the disappointment, warning that the second coming would be later than the Millerites expected. These men, however, it is said, were reluctant to share their visions and the job was passed on to EGW.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

But whenever there was a Sabbath, be it the weekly Sabbath or a ceremonial Sabbath, wouldn't there automatically be a preparation day preceding it? So if we are talking about the Passover week's high Sabbath, that Sabbath day should also have a preparation day before it, right?
​

An appeal to a prep day prior to a ceremonial sabbath (?) does not put humpty dumpty back together again...........
......Simply because Scripture states Christ's death directly proceeded a high sabbath.

On any Sabbath day, ceremonial or moral, the Jews rested from regular labor. In order to rest, they had to prepare for it on the day before. Tied to every Sabbath day was a preparation day.

How do you calculate a high sabbath which does not include a regular seventh day sabbath?

why does a high Sabbath have to include a regular seventh-day Sabbath? Wasn't the Passover Sabbath known to Jews as a high Sabbath, with or without it falling on the seventh day of the week?

............If you require more SDA archived statements claiming Christ died on a "Friday" just ask.

Pythons, I don't really need quotes from archives, as interesting as your links are. Early SDAs were finding their way. Your pointing at mistakes they may have made in the course of their search for truth does not mean that they are wrong all across the board.


Originally Posted by laodicean

Oh, dear. Strong language, both by your neighboring SDA church and by John the Revelator! It does kind of make me cringe. Who does the Catholic Church interpret the harlot to be? I'd be interested to get your perspective.
​

So John the Revelator simply used the same strong language against the Catholic church and the SDA were just promulgating it. I see. I guess it's a universal teaching within SDA.

I said that the word "harlot" is strong language and makes me cringe. I did not say that John the Revelator used the term against the Catholic church. I asked you what is your interpretation of who the "harlot" is. That is all.

(delete repetitions.)

 

[Pythons]

Originally Posted by LaodiceanUmmm...that is not how the date of 457 was arrived at. There was no counting back. The prophecy says, "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks of years and sixty-two weeks of years" (Daniel 9:25). You count forward from that date, not backwards from some supposed event.

Never said it was how 457 was arrived at..............
......Counting back from the terminus of 70 pophetic weeks was how it was confirmed.

How did you determine, from that chart, that Miller counted backwards? Or am I to just take your word that somehow, somewhere, you just knew that Miller did actually count backwards? (Not that it matters to me how he arrived at his dates. I don't need Miller when it is clearly there in the Bible, available for anyone to count forwards on their own steam.)

The seventy week prophecy was understood to start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem..........
........For 457 to be considered as accurate it requires a 31 A.D. passover death for Christ.

And yes, I did look at the chart AzA posted. I see nothing in there that will tell me that Miller counted backwards. I did not comment on AzA's contribution because I don't know where she stands in this, and I don't want to repeat my earlier mistake of assuming anything.

Perhaps it would be better if you removed the 70 week prophetic time scheme totally.........
......Then start your calculations on the 2300 day prophecy and see how far you get.

Fact 1: The way the 1844 date was calculated was by counting forwards from an established Biblical/historical date. You have them counting backwards.

34 + 457 = 491 - 0 year between B.C. and A.D. results in "490".............
...........Which can't be reached if Jesus didn't die in 31 A.D.

Fact 2: Miller needed a reliable start date for both the 2300 day and 70-day prophecy. This start date was 457 BC, not a 31AD date.

With each needing to sync together for the time scheme to be considered valid...........
...........Remove 31 A.D. and plug another year into the time scheme and see what happens.

Fact 3: EGW understood Miller's position and accepted the 457 starting date long before she began receiving visions. So even if you can show that Miller was wrong (which you can't) her support of his position says nothing about her position as a prophet.

It's not my point to question the prophetic ability of Ellen White............
........It's my point that if Miller was correct in his calculations you are not observing the same "Sabbath" & I will prove it.

By the way, as a side note, two men, William Foy and Hazen Foss also received visions similar to EGW's, before the disappointment, warning that the second coming would be later than the Millerites expected. These men, however, it is said, were reluctant to share their visions and the job was passed on to EGW.

Ok, that's fair enough but still has nothing to do with what I'm demonstrating.........
........Specifically that 14 Nisan was not a Friday in 31 A.D.

On any Sabbath day, ceremonial or moral, the Jews rested from regular labor. In order to rest, they had to prepare for it on the day before. Tied to every Sabbath day was a preparation day.

Every sabbath is ceremonial as it requires the passage of time to activate.......
.....Unlike a moral or natural commandment which is in force perpetually.

why does a high Sabbath have to include a regular seventh-day Sabbath? Wasn't the Passover Sabbath known to Jews as a high Sabbath, with or without it falling on the seventh day of the week?

Passover is a "feast day" and not a sabbath day..............
...........Exactly as the feast of first fruits is not a sabbath day.

Pythons, I don't really need quotes from archives, as interesting as your links are. Early SDAs were finding their way. Your pointing at mistakes they may have made in the course of their search for truth does not mean that they are wrong all across the board.

Was Ellen White also an early SDA?

they knew that the disciples would not attempt to remove him until after the sabbath; but they were anxious that all precautions should be taken at its close. Therefore "the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Christ rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day, and when holy beings of both Heaven and earth were astir on the morning of the first day of the week, he rose from the grave to renew his work of teaching his disciples. But this fact does not consecrate the first day of the week, and make it a Sabbath

The above is Ellen White explicitly telling you that Jesus rested in the tomb on the sabbath day.........
.........And that Jesus rose from the grave on the first day of the week.

I'm saying that according to Ellen White and every contemporary she had who spoke on the matter.........
..........Jesus was crucified on Friday, rested in the tomb sat and rose from the dead Sunday.

I said that the word "harlot" is strong language and makes me cringe. I did not say that John the Revelator used the term against the Catholic church. I asked you what is your interpretation of who the "harlot" is. That is all.

My apologies, you tied what St John said with what the speaker of the prophetic meeting said..........
........My issue wasn't that 'harlot' was used in Apoc but that the speaker said it was Catholicism.

 

[Laodicean]

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Originally Posted by LaodiceanUmmm...that is not how the date of 457 was arrived at. There was no counting back. The prophecy says, "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks of years and sixty-two weeks of years" (Daniel 9:25). You count forward from that date, not backwards from some supposed event.
​

Never said it was how 457 was arrived at..............
......Counting back from the terminus of 70 pophetic weeks was how it was confirmed.

457 was not a date that needed to be confirmed. It was already a historically confirmed date, and is tied Biblically to the beginning of the 70 weeks that were cut off from the 2300 days. "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." The command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem was given in the 7th year of Artaxerxes Longimanus, a date confirmed historically, not through counting backwards. And counting forward, the 70th week reveals that the expected Messiah did indeed come, as prophesied.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

How did you determine, from that chart, that Miller counted backwards? Or am I to just take your word that somehow, somewhere, you just knew that Miller did actually count backwards? (Not that it matters to me how he arrived at his dates. I don't need Miller when it is clearly there in the Bible, available for anyone to count forward on their own steam.)
​

The seventy week prophecy was understood to start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem..........

yes.

........For 457 to be considered as accurate it requires a 31 A.D. passover death for Christ.

Well, you didn't answer my question as to how you know that Miller counted backwards instead of forward. I don't have to count backwards. Why would Miller need to?

The 457 date is already accurate as being the date that the decree was given to rebuild Jerusalem. And if, in counting forward, the 70 weeks of years are seen to end in nothing happening, then that does not invalidate the 457 date. It merely invalidates the interpretation of the vision that says that the Messiah would come in the 70th week. The fact that Jesus showed up on time validates the interpretation of the prophecy, not the 457 date.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

And yes, I did look at the chart AzA posted. I see nothing in there that will tell me that Miller counted backwards. I did not comment on AzA's contribution because I don't know where she stands in this, and I don't want to repeat my earlier mistake of assuming anything.
​

Perhaps it would be better if you removed the 70 week prophetic time scheme totally.........
......Then start your calculations on the 2300 day prophecy and see how far you get.

We can do that. Considering that the previous vision re the 2300 days got answered in the next vision, by explaining that 70 weeks were cut off from the 2300 days, and considering that we already have the 457 starting date for the 70 weeks, we can bypass 31 AD and merely count 2300 years beyond 457 BC, and we will come to 1843/44.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

Fact 1: The way the 1844 date was calculated was by counting forwards from an established Biblical/historical date. You have them counting backwards.
​

34 + 457 = 491 - 0 year between B.C. and A.D. results in "490".............
...........Which can't be reached if Jesus didn't die in 31 A.D.

I just reached 1843/44 above, without checking into whether Jesus died in 31AD or not.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Fact 2: Miller needed a reliable start date for both the 2300 day and 70-day prophecy. This start date was 457 BC, not a 31AD date.
​

With each needing to sync together for the time scheme to be considered valid...........
...........Remove 31 A.D. and plug another year into the time scheme and see what happens.

I don't need to consider 31 AD at all, in considering the 1843/44 date. Even if Jesus died, say, in 30 AD or 32 AD, it doesn't matter to the 1843/44 date, as long as we have a substantiated starting date for the 70 weeks. And remember, that substantiated starting date is not dependent on the crucifixion date, but on the historical dates of Artaxerxes' reign.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Fact 3: EGW understood Miller's position and accepted the 457 starting date long before she began receiving visions. So even if you can show that Miller was wrong (which you can't) her support of his position says nothing about her position as a prophet.
​

It's not my point to question the prophetic ability of Ellen White............
........It's my point that if Miller was correct in his calculations you are not observing the same "Sabbath" & I will prove it.

I didn't think this was a discussion about whether I am observing the same Sabbath as whoever you have in mind. But if you want to prove that I am observing the wrong seventh day, go ahead. It might be interesting.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

By the way, as a side note, two men, William Foy and Hazen Foss also received visions similar to EGW's, before the disappointment, warning that the second coming would be later than the Millerites expected. These men, however, it is said, were reluctant to share their visions and the job was passed on to EGW.
​

Ok, that's fair enough but still has nothing to do with what I'm demonstrating.........
........Specifically that 14 Nisan was not a Friday in 31 A.D.

I agree. 14 Nisan fell on a Wednesday in 31 AD. So what's your point again? I'm trying to keep up here.


Originally Posted by Laodicean

On any Sabbath day, ceremonial or moral, the Jews rested from regular labor. In order to rest, they had to prepare for it on the day before. Tied to every Sabbath day was a preparation day.
​

Every sabbath is ceremonial as it requires the passage of time to activate.......
.....Unlike a moral or natural commandment which is in force perpetually.

The seventh-day weekly Sabbath is in the midst of the 10 commandments, the moral law, so it would not be a ceremonial Sabbath. But in any event, what does what you just said have to do with a preparation day being tied to any Sabbath, whether ceremonial or moral?

Originally Posted by Laodicean

why does a high Sabbath have to include a regular seventh-day Sabbath? Wasn't the Passover Sabbath known to Jews as a high Sabbath, with or without it falling on the seventh day of the week?
​

Passover is a "feast day" and not a sabbath day..............
...........Exactly as the feast of first fruits is not a sabbath day.

the Passover week had a Sabbath included in it. The Interlinear Bible, Greek/English, says "After the Sabbaths" (plural), "at the dawning into the first of the week." Matthew 28:1.

Originally Posted by Laodicean

Pythons, I don't really need quotes from archives, as interesting as your links are. Early SDAs were finding their way. Your pointing at mistakes they may have made in the course of their search for truth does not mean that they are wrong all across the board.
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Was Ellen White also an early SDA?

Yes. And?

Originally Posted by Ellen, spirit of prophecy, 179

they knew that the disciples would not attempt to remove him until after the sabbath; but they were anxious that all precautions should be taken at its close. Therefore "the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate, saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
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Originally Posted by Ellen White 3SP 205

Christ rested in the tomb on the Sabbath day, and when holy beings of both Heaven and earth were astir on the morning of the first day of the week, he rose from the grave to renew his work of teaching his disciples. But this fact does not consecrate the first day of the week, and make it a Sabbath
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The above is Ellen White explicitly telling you that Jesus rested in the tomb on the sabbath day.........
.........And that Jesus rose from the grave on the first day of the week


I'm saying that according to Ellen White and every contemporary she had who spoke on the matter.........
..........Jesus was crucified on Friday, rested in the tomb sat and rose from the dead Sunday.

There is no mention of the word "Friday," just "preparation day" -- of which there could have been two preparation days in that particular week, if thre were two Sabbaths, one ceremonial, one moral. The Wednesday crucifixion is not normally taught by most (not just SDAs), and it really is not critical which day it is. What matters is that Jesus died for us. But deeper study can reveal a Wednesday crucifixion, I think. In the case of EGW, there are a couple of choices.

1. EGW did not fully understand when she wrote about the time line.

or

2. EGW understood but did not fully explain the time line.

Either way does not invalidate her as a prophet. Prophets don't have to understand everything they write.

 

[Joe67]

Pythons,

Our SdA church has openly declared itself to be a world-wide/universal and thus a catholic church.

Thus Romans 2 has been fulfilled among those people with whom I joined at the age of 12 in 1954. Thus we have revealed that we are like all other institutional religions. We have a need to condemn. The law works this wrath in us. Thus we heap up wrath against the day of wrath.

Anyone we condemn, we reveal that we are inwardly the same.

Rom 1:32-2:4
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? KJV

Joe

 

[Pythons]

Pythons,

Our SdA church has openly declared itself to be a world-wide/universal and thus a catholic church.

Thus Romans 2 has been fulfilled among those people with whom I joined at the age of 12 in 1954. Thus we have revealed that we are like all other institutional religions. We have a need to condemn. The law works this wrath in us. Thus we heap up wrath against the day of wrath.

Anyone we condemn, we reveal that we are inwardly the same.

Rom 1:32-2:4
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? KJV

Joe

Thanks for saying that Joe. I can see where you are coming from..........
.........It is similar within my own camp.

I just found another quote from Ellen White related to our discussion......
........Which establishes that she taught Christ died on Friday.

Trouble seemed crowding upon trouble. On the sixth day of the week they had seen their Master die; on the first day of the next week they found themselves deprived of His body, and they were accused of having stolen it away for the sake of deceiving the people. They despaired of ever correcting the false impressions that were gaining ground against them. They feared the enmity of the priests and the wrath of the people. They longed for the presence of Jesus, who had helped them in every perplexity. {DA 794.2}