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Only a small clarification if I might. God doesn't overpower our total depravity, it is still with us. He totally makes us a new creation. The old man is alive and strong in this body of death called the flesh but all believers are made new creatures in Christ and we war daily with that old depraved nature that constantly battles for dominion.bsd058 said:It's only by God overpowering our total depravity with his grace that we are finally given the ability to do good. Hence grace would then have to be irresistible (I), otherwise we would choose sin over God since our own propensity is to do only evil (the thoughts of men are ONLY evil from their youth).
Thank you.Only a small clarification if I might. God doesn't overpower our total depravity, it is still with us. He totally makes us a new creation. The old man is alive and strong in this body of death called the flesh but all believers are made new creatures in Christ and we war daily with that old depraved nature that constantly battles for dominion.
I want to say I'm impressed with this response. It's not too often people are persuaded by logic and Scripture, and I'm glad that you submit to both and are humble. Thank you for taking the time to understand and search the Scriptures.Well I must say you all have made very excellent arguments for the five points. I see the logical structure and I see the biblical evidence. There are of course some verses in scripture I have a hard time wrapping my mind around in relation to this subject, but I will admit that you all have made a very persuasive argument.
Perhaps I jumped the gun too quickly. I just ran across and contemplated some verses that made me reconsider the U and the L mainly. But your arguments are solid and I may have to humbly admit that I made a mistake in too hastily jumping to conclusions.
I also had a couple friends die recently, both unbelievers, and it sort of hurts to think that they never even had a chance to be saved. So that emotional aspect probably had something to do with it too.
Thanks for being gracious and responding to my concerns with logic and scripture, I do appreciate it. I've never held to the whole of reformed theology (infant baptism, amillenialism, etc) but I did hold to the five points for a long time. At this point I think I must prayerfully reconsider my objections in light of scripture. Thank you all for your help.
I want to say I'm impressed with this response. It's not too often people are persuaded by logic and Scripture, and I'm glad that you submit to both and are humble. Thank you for taking the time to understand and search the Scriptures.
It takes maturity to admit that you're wrong or that you could be wrong.
If any of us can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to post!
I agree with T after that I do not agree. I believe that God shows Himself and that we must choose to accept the gift (though He has chosen to reveal Himself to us through creation and life events. Atonement, therefore is something that we get put on our "account" by accepting it. Grace while no one deserves it can be resisted I know this based on two things one we do not always follow God's will for our lives and two I have personally resisted that gift. As for P I believe that while God does not leave us we are free to leave our salvation by directly with words or indirectly by repeated actions recant. As a gift, just as in law ( man's law) Her can not and will not revoke it, but we can take it back and withdraw ourselves.
How can the T not be total?Then your 'T' is not really 'T' (or 'total')...and you get the rest wrong, too. That's what happens when we screw up the first one.
I agree with T after that I do not agree. I believe that God shows Himself and that we must choose to accept the gift (though He has chosen to reveal Himself to us through creation and life events. Atonement, therefore is something that we get put on our "account" by accepting it. Grace while no one deserves it can be resisted I know this based on two things one we do not always follow God's will for our lives and two I have personally resisted that gift. As for P I believe that while God does not leave us we are free to leave our salvation by directly with words or indirectly by repeated actions recant. As a gift, just as in law ( man's law) Her can not and will not revoke it, but we can take it back and withdraw ourselves.
How can the T not be total?
You never were. There is no such thing as a genuine former Calvinist. Plenty of former confused folks, however.I am not a Calvinist any longer..
You can still resist trust me I know I keep wanting Hell. Even though I know Christ died so I could be with Him and believe that. GD I believe that God makes it to where every knows there would HAVE to be something more with all of creation the way it is, but we choose rather to believe and accept that, or at the very least choose to believe and accept that it was He who did it all. The same is true of certain life events, there bare times when if a non-believer were being honest they would admit that it was God. For example, an awful car wreck, yet they are so stubborn that they will not admit it.Man may be able to resist Grace for a time, but ultimately God wins that contest, every time. If He allows you to resist for a time, it is to teach you something so that you will be strengthened when His Grace overcomes your resistance (which it will). In my own case, whatever resistance I had crumbled when He confronted me. God will use your own stubbornness to teach you and strengthen you, thereby turning your feeble resistance into something strong and powerful for His use.
The TULIP stands or falls on the T. It is the hinge the entire gate swings on.
...GD I believe that God makes it to where every knows there would HAVE to be something more with all of creation the way it is, but we choose rather to believe and accept that, or at the very least choose to believe and accept that it was He who did it all. The same is true of certain life events, there bare times when if a non-believer were being honest they would admit that it was God. For example, an awful car wreck, yet they are so stubborn that they will not admit it.
no not smarter but just seeing the grace and believing. No one has answered me as to IF Calvinism is true why it is that I would knowing and believing in that gift and having accepted it I would want Hell on and off for years ( even while still believing in Christ's gift and even while still sharing that gift with OTHERS and yet not wanting it for my own sins.OK...suppose two people are involved in this awful car wreck you mentioned. They both see God's hand at work in neither of them being injured. One trusts in the Lord for salvation; the other does not. Why? Was the person who chose God smarter than the other one? More righteous? More grateful? Luckier? (Hint: I think the Scriptures are pretty clear on 'why'.)
no not smarter but just seeing the grace and believing.
No one has answered me as to IF Calvinism is true why it is that I would knowing and believing in that gift and having accepted it I would want Hell on and off for years ( even while still believing in Christ's gift and even while still sharing that gift with OTHERS and yet not wanting it for my own sins.
You can still resist trust me I know I keep wanting Hell. Even though I know Christ died so I could be with Him and believe that. GD I believe that God makes it to where every knows there would HAVE to be something more with all of creation the way it is, but we choose rather to believe and accept that, or at the very least choose to believe and accept that it was He who did it all. The same is true of certain life events, there bare times when if a non-believer were being honest they would admit that it was God. For example, an awful car wreck, yet they are so stubborn that they will not admit it.
If God's grace were not irresistible, I would never have surrendered. But the more I struggled, the tighter it gripped me.
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