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I thought the covid-19 issue has laid to rest the question on whether are there people with the gift of healing today?
I have a genuine question. If the gifts of healing ended after the apostles why are there some people who have continuously even after the apostles's deaths, even up to Christians living today that have gifts of the Holy Spirit? I'll explain. Paul describes what some of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in 1 Corinthians 12. In 1 Corinthians 12:8-9 Paul says:
For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit.
Pay attention to the parts I've bolded. We've never in the last 2,000 years seen pastors and theologians utter knowledge and wisdom before? So Constantine came up with his great theology by himself? So, the pastor that you go to see on Sunday got all of his knowledge from the Bible by himself and not the Holy Spirit right? A great Theologian like RC. Sproul never uttered such unbelievable knowledge of the scriptures from himself right? No! They have the Holy Spirit helping them! Every great pastor or theologian asks for the Holy Spirits power to tell them what they should be talking about that day and what scriptures to read and for the Holy Spirit's power to help them decipher the scriptures. Same with some Christians too. We rely on God's power to help us decipher what scriptures to read and what they mean. It's all a gift and work from the Holy Spirit! And that's just the tipping of the iceberg though, Paul also said that a gift from the Holy Spirit is our faith. Every single child of God has this gift, (If you don't how are you a Christian. You cannot be a Christian without faith.). Or gifts of healing. This one could be debatable but one confirmed Case of healing is Joan of Arc. She healed people in front of the British so it's a confirmed act of healing. Why do you think they wanted to execute her for being a witch? It wasn't just because of her attire. It was also because she had the "powers" of a witch.
No, people still have gifts of the Holy Spirit, they always have, and they always will.
You mean no one but the tens of thousands of Christians who lay hands on the sick and heal them?
By "THEIR HANDS" were the Apostles who had all of the Sign Gifts.
Chad.......please tell all us us the answer to this very simple question.
If the gift of healing is valid today to MEN who we call "Faith Healers".......
WHY THEN HAVE OVER 1 MILLION DIED FROM COVID-19??????
Why don't all the faith healers set up healing tents in different parts of the world and put an end to this illness??????
Okay. I assume that there is widespread agreement with your point there.
Those are several common views of the matter, yes. However, the perspective of Cessationists is much more direct that any of that.
The gifts did cease to be a significant or definitive part of the life of the Church sometime during the ancient period. I agree that there probably were occasional instances of someone being said to have the gift of tongues or one of the other gifts after that, but as far as such a thing driving the Church or characterizing the faith, or having anything much to do with converting the remaining masses of pagans...no.
So they ceased for all intents and purposes, and people who understand this are called Cessationists for that reason.
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........
1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.
The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.
In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..
What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.
I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.
For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.
Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.
The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.
Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.
You say there is the 1 and the 2. HOWEVER, there is a 3rd. Apostolic Succession. I am no Roman Catholic... but I must admit, it fits and satisfies much here.
Well whether they ceased or not we cannot know for sure. Even i the Apostolic age, there is not much print given to write abou t the gifts being demonstrated.
I as the church believing was shrinking as the apostate church was growing from teh 4th -16th centuries, One would expect teh gifts empowered by the Spirit to shrink as well! Most of Christendom was not walking by the Spirit but by dogma of a man made institution. As teh reformation took hold over time, we see a progression:
1. The bible becoming readily available to the masses.
2. the old doctrines were called into question.
3. biblical doctrine was being reborn in the lives of the believers.
4. systematic Study began to grow and with it the beginning of systematic theology.
5. as the more critical issues were now well established and rooted in many churches. teh gifts once again began to be manifested. (turn of teh 20 th century approx)
Now once again Pentacostalism has way overblown the gifts of tongues, prophecy and healing. They were given by god to minister and edify teh church not to take over the mindset of churches in a large degree. Also tongues is the least of the gifts. It is for self edification which is then supposed to turn to edifying the church because that person has been built up !
Well that is how I see it through my rose colored glasses.
This is why:
"Maybe you think the gift of healing means always be able to heal, like Jesus did. That's not my view. I believe the Holy Spirit speaks to the gifted Christian when a healing is to take place."
Not even the apostles that had the gift of healing did as many miracle healings as Jesus. Why would that be if they had the power to heal whenever the liked?
God granted signs and wonders by their hands.
There is NO SUCH thing as Apostolic Succession found in the Bible. That is a 100% Roman Catholic thought and false teaching.
Now I do not expect you or anyone else to accept that so I ask YOU to do the stury. YOU do the work but I can tell you before you begin, whether you use your Bible, a commentary or the internet........ nowhere in Scripture did Jesus, the apostles, or any other New Testament writer set forth the idea of “apostolic succession.”
I disagree.Just because Paul makes mention of a particular gift in his letter to the Corinthians doesn't mean it must be present throughout all ages.
Obviously, the ministry of an apostle was specifically subject to eye witness accounts. But the office of an evangelist, teacher, e.t.c., are still valid.Paul says that the most pre-eminent spiritual gift is apostleship (1 Cor 12:28). That doesn't mean there must be apostles today.
Agree, but the issues raised will apply to all churches.Paul's letter was addressed to the Corinthians, not all churches. "To the church of God which is at Corinth" (1 Cor 1:2).
Disagree.Throughout his epistle he is dealing with problems that were specific to the Corinthian church only, not all churches.
So only the Corinthian church had sexual immorality?If it was addressed to all believers worldwide it would mean we are all guilty of abuse of the Lord's table, sexual immorality, creating divisive factions, taking fellow believers to court, opposing Paul's authority, etc. etc.
Agreed, but the overall instruction applies to us all. The Corinthian church was not a unique church, every problem in the Corinthian church will be evident in all church movements.The same applies to their use/misuse of spiritual gifts. Have you ever noticed how many times Paul uses the word "you" in 1 Cor 14? He was referring to the Corinthians, not us.
Correct.Of course we can heed the instructions Paul gave the Corinthians, but only in situations that apply to us today.
A trivial comment.For example, do Paul's instruction regarding head coverings apply to women today, or was that only relevant to the culture of the time when women generally wore head-coverings as a symbol of submission to their husbands?
Who's talking about prohibition?Those gifts were NOT forbidden by those who were alive at the time. In fact, they have not been forbidden in the centuries since, either.
There is really no such term, 'charismatic'. There is only a Holy Spirit driven Christian church. If you belong to any other type of church, then your church is a dead church.I know that some charismatics like to talk as though somebody is prohibiting them from practicing their religious beliefs...but no one does.
That is just not true my brother. Not true at all.
I do not mean to be rude or disrespectful, but have you read the Bible thoroughly????
The Bible truth is that ALL the Apostles had ALL the Sign gifts and did what Jesus did including raising the dead.
"Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cure those with leprosy, and cast out demons. Give as freely as you have received!" (Matthew 10:7-8).
The disciples followed instructions and returned, sharing about all the great miracles they performed (Luke 9:10).
- Peter walked on water (Matthew 14:28-31).
- All believers spoke in foreign languages (Acts 2:4).
- Peter & John healed the lame man (Acts 3:1-11; 3:16).
- Peter's shadow fell on the sick, healing them (Acts 5:15-16).
- Peter & John laid hands on believers who then received the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14-17
- Peter heals lame Aeneas in Lydda (Acts 9:32-35).
- Peter raised Tabitha, aka Dorcas, from the dead (Acts 9:36-43).
- Paul cursed and blinded the blasphemous Elymas the sorcerer (Acts 13:11-12).
- Paul & Barnabas performed signs and wonders in Iconium (Acts 14:3).
- Paul & Barnabas healed the crippled man who had faith (Acts 14:8-10).
- Paul & Silas cast a demon out of a fortune telling slave girl (Acts 16:16-18).
- Paul given extreme power for many unusual miracles. People touched him with aprons and handkerchiefs and laid the cloths on the sick and demon-possessed, who were then healed (Acts 19:11-12).
- Paul raised Eutychus from the dead after a terrible accident (Acts 20:9-12).
- Paul unharmed by poisonous snake bite in Malta (Acts 28:3-6).
- Paul healed Publius' father of fever and dysentery (Acts 28:7-8).
Read more: Miracles of Jesus' Apostles
- Paul healed all sick people on the island of Malta (Acts 28:9-10).
Correct! THEIR hands were the Apostles.
You are placing your wants to believe with what the Bible actually says my brother.
Mark 16:14........
"Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen."
The reason for Paul saying women should keep silence in the church is due to the boys and men having a temple education which the women did not get. The services, were in Koin Greek while the women only knew the language of the market place. Not being able to understand, the women started to chatter among themselves. We wouldn't want that in our churches would we, and as they all sat together, I can imagine the disruption it would cause. Then (verse 34) the women were to ask their husbands when they got home, and they could explain to the children, and no, the women were not speaking in tongues.What is really.....interesting and actually funny. The 14th chapter of 1 Corth., in fact 12-14 are all e "Corrective" chapters about what is to not be done in church with the focus on "TONGUES".
Now that being said and anyone can read those Scriptures and verify my comment, notice chapter 14:34............
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."
Now we know that women spoke in the church so Paul is saying that Women are not to speak in TONGUES in church".
If women were not allowed to speak in TONGUES in church there would in fact be no tongues movement at all!!!
Thoughts?????
I agree. That was a new one and I have never heard of such a thing. I think someone is making it up as they go.I have never heard the phrase Sign Gifts. Do you mean the visible signs of physical healing for example?
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I have never heard the phrase Sign Gifts. Do you mean the visible signs of physical healing for example?
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I agree. That was a new one and I have never heard of such a thing. I think someone is making it up as they go.
All the gifts and ministries are visible events.
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