Why hasn't Jesus come back yet?

parousia70 said:

No, I demonstrated that it's not 40 years but 10 years or less.

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Is that imminent in your opinion? Does that constitute "at hand"?

sovereigngrace said:

Do you believe Jesus in a literal physical future return of the Messiah to resurrect mankind, judge everyone, glorify the elect, reward the elect, punish the wicked and glorify this earth?

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This ought to be a conversation, not an inquisition.

Once you answer my question about Matthew 24:33, I'll take a turn at answering your question.

If you choose to continue to avoid it, I'll return the favor.

sovereigngrace said:

Is that imminent in your opinion? Does that constitute "at hand"?

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Absolutely.

In Warning that the impending extinction from the earth of the 1500 year old operational Mosaic economy, with it's temple, levitical priesthood and sacrifice system, was A decade or less away, it would be absolutely proper to declare the event "at Hand".

parousia70 said:

How did Jesus go "into heaven"

Hidden from their eyes by a cloud, (Acts 1:9)
I believe in His "Like manner" return.

The text says he would return "In like manner as He went into heaven"

Only the apostles saw Him go
Do you believe His return will be "in like manner"?

He handed out no rewards or punishment at the ascension.
Do you likewise believe His return will be "in like manner"?

Jesus Christ most certainly appeared in like manner as He left on at least those two occasions as testified by the apostolic witness.
It happened to Paul on the road to Damascus and to Stephen at His stoning.
I'm inclined to believe the apostolic witness.
You are of course free to reject the apostolic testimony.

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Of course they watched Him go. Read the text! Acts 1:10 says, “while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

1. Did Jesus Christ come literally with the coming of Titus in AD70?
2. Did Jesus Christ come physically with the coming of Titus in AD70?
3. Did Jesus Christ come visibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
4. Did Jesus Christ come audibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
5. Did Jesus Christ come bodily with the coming of Titus in AD70?

parousia70 said:

Absolutely.

In Warning that the impending extinction from the earth of the 1500 year old operational Mosaic economy, with it's temple, levitical priesthood and sacrifice system, was A decade or less away, it would be absolutely proper to declare the event "at Hand".

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Imminent means 'about to happen'. That was not about to happen. It was 10-40 years later. This is how Preterist play with the English language in order to support their theory and ignore what the sacred text is actually saying.

sovereigngrace said:

Of course they watched Him go. Read the text! Acts 1:10 says, “while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

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Exactly. He went into Heaven, HIDDEN FROM THEIR EYES BY A CLOUD.
His return was to be IN LIKE MANNER

1. Did Jesus Christ come literally with the coming of Titus in AD70?
2. Did Jesus Christ come physically with the coming of Titus in AD70?
3. Did Jesus Christ come visibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
4. Did Jesus Christ come audibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
5. Did Jesus Christ come bodily with the coming of Titus in AD70?

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Absolutely. As I have proven before, Precisely in the manner of Jehovah's OT era comings:

Every time Yahweh "came in the clouds" and was "seen by all eyes" throughout the OT He did so INVISIBLY. We have absolutely ZERO scriptural instruction to make that same language mean something POLAR OPPOSITE to the clear and consistent OT teaching when we find it in the NT.
ZERO.

YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

NOR HERE:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

Tell me, Where do you find the scriptural instruction to interpret the OT phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" in POLAR OPPOSITE FASHION to the NT phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"?

Friend, again, The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 IS the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings cited above.

Here one more that should hammer this fact home to any honest Bible expositor:

AFTER David's Defeat of Saul, He described the battle this way:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

God sure was a huffin and a puffin right there wasn't He?

Bowing the heavens, starting fires with his nostrils, shooting arrows, actually seen riding on Clouds and Cherubs, shaking the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare!

Is it your position that these things LITERALLY happened during that Battle, exactly as David said they did?
Is it?

Again we have no instruction to take this same language when we find it in the NT and apply a POLAR OPPOSITE interpretation, yet apparently this is exactly what you are doing.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

sovereigngrace said:

Imminent means 'about to happen'. That was not about to happen. It was 10-40 years later. This is how Preterist play with the English language in order to support their theory and ignore what the sacred text is actually saying.

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Please address what you believe Jesus (who is God) meant by "Near and at the doors" here:

Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

parousia70 said:

You avoided the question (as per normal).

Please address what Jesus meant by "near and at the doors" in Matt 24:33

You previously said Near is used to convey time from God's perspective, not man's, and any man who Says the term "near" in scripture is to be understood from mans perspective is "foolish".

Is that true here as well?

Jesus (who is God) said it.

Did He mean for us to understand it from Gods perspective of Near?
Or are you foolish enough to claim He meant "near" from man's perspective here?

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On this matter, a basic understanding of "time" and "eternity" will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It carries the same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word.

sovereigngrace said:

On this matter, a basic understanding of "time" and "eternity" will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches” or “draws nigh.” It carries the same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal perspective, not man’s natural perspective. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.

The phrase “at hand” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word.

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Again, what did Jesus mean by "near and at the doors" in Matt 24:33?

He instructed Hos apostles that once they saw "all these things" they should know His coming was "near and at the doors"..

What did He mean by that?
How Near? 1000 years near?

parousia70 said:

Again, what did Jesus mean by "near and at the doors" in Matt 24:33?

He instructed Hos apostles that once they saw "all these things" they should know His coming was "near and at the doors"..

What did He mean by that?
How Near? 1000 years near?

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I have already told you, but you will not accept it because it refutes Preterism. It simply means "approaches." The coming of the Lord is impending not imminent. No one knows the duration.

2 Peter 3:3-9 powerfully illustrates this: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness.”

The focus of this message is directed to the end-time-cynics who deny Christ, despise His Word and scorn the likelihood of His return. The near 2,000 years that has already elapsed since our Lord’s first Advent is used as a basis for their mocking. They use this supposed delay as an opportunity to propagate their foolishness. 2 Peter 3 makes clear, those that would consider this as an opportunity for scorn will be swiftly and assuredly caught in their own folly at His coming. Like the wicked locked outside the ark and the iniquitous left behind in Sodom, the end-time scoffers will be caught unexpected when the judgment arrives suddenly. These evildoers will be exposed when Christ returns and pours out His wrath upon them. That is the whole emphasis of this passage – the sudden and unanticipated destruction of the wicked at Christ’s return.

Peter warns these “last days” mockers that such a day will (1) catch them unexpected, and, (2) involve the immediate, complete and final judgment. He cites the total destruction of the unrighteous in Noah’s day as a picture and evidence of what will occur. 2 Peter 3:5-6 confirms: “For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.” As in Noah’s day, the wicked scoffers will be shocked when the day of the Lord overtakes them as a “thief in the night.” That seems to be the import of Peter’s argument. The fiery indignation described in this reading destroys the unrighteous and their distain at Christ’s appearing. In fact, in order for the folly of the wicked (in regard to their delusion on Christ’s coming) to be exposed and eliminated the Lord must return in fiery judgment and expose their ignorance.

You can imagine these last days cynics mocking, as the end of time approaches: “2000 years ago He said His return was ‘at hand’ or ‘near’.” “He said He was coming ‘quickly’ or ‘shortly’.” “He promised His return was imminent. But alas nothing!” “Where is He?”

Peter is simply reminding the end-time scoffers that time is absolutely nothing to the king of glory; He ultimately sits outside of time in the realm of eternity. Time is but a blink to His infinite mind and to the eternal state. God is “from everlasting” (Habakkuk 1:12, Psalms 93:2).

sovereigngrace said:

I have already told you, but you will not accept it because it refutes Preterism. It simply means "approaches." The coming of the Lord is impending not imminent. No one knows the duration.

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So the Signs in Matt 24 mean nothing? and their passing has nothing to tell the observer about how near His coming is?

is that what you are saying?

Jesus said "when you see all these things" (not before you see them but WHEN you see them) Know that it is Near, at the doors!"

According to Jesus:
Before the Signs are seen = NOT Near and at the doors
WHEN the signs are seen = Near and at the doors

Please explain What Jesus is conveying the difference in nearness is from before the signs are seen and after?

You appear to be saying there is no discernible difference between "Not near" and "Near".
Is this what you believe?

parousia70 said:

So the Signs in Matt 24 mean nothing? and their passing has nothing to tell the observer about how near His coming is?

is that what you are saying?

Jesus said "when you see all these things" (not before you see them but WHEN you see them) Know that it is Near, at the doors!"

According to Jesus:
Before the Signs are seen = NOT Near and at the doors
WHEN the signs are seen = Near and at the doors

Please explain What Jesus is conveying the difference in nearness is from before the signs are seen and after?

You appear to be saying there is no discernible difference between "Not near" and "Near".
Is this what you believe?

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Many Bible students (including Preterists and Premillennialists) dive into Matthew 24 without recognizing the intro to Christ's comments in Matthew 23. There He talks about 2 events - AD70 and His climactic return at the end of time.

In Matthew 24:23-34, Jesus is talking about His future return (in answer to question 2) and what will proceed it: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

sovereigngrace said:

Many Bible students (including Preterists and Premillennialists) dive into Matthew 24 without recognizing the intro to Christ's comments in Matthew 23. There He talks about 2 events - AD70 and His climactic return at the end of time.

In Matthew 24:23-34, Jesus is talking about His future return (in answer to question 2) and what will proceed it: “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.”

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That does not answer my question. even in the slightest.

Here it is again:
What do you believe the Difference between "Near and at the doors" (The reality WHEN the signs are seen) and "NOT near and at the doors" (The reality BEFORE the signs are seen)

Is there any difference in your view?

Your argument appears to say, "no, there is no discernible difference between near and not near."

But I can't say for sure... and Oddly you keep beating around the bush and refuse to say for sure yourself...

It's your position after all. You are the one who holds it, so you should be able to articulate it, no?

He said "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." This is His creation. He so loved this world. No time with God. And this 2000 years to God can also be just a tad over two days since He left.

Yeah..its not how WE as man see it.. its through His eyes. I am already living for ever. So want to go home. Yet.. take as long as needed Father.

mindlight said:

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

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“The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” 2Peter3:9

Our idea of His “slowness” to return is not slow to Him... to Him, it may seem like it’s just been a couple days since He last game to us.

parousia70 said:

Which Coming of the Lord was this one?:

Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the Lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

Already Past?, or are we Sill waiting for this particular, post crucifixion, Coming of the Lord to miserably destroy the Chief Priests and Pharisees, and lease His vineyard to others who will render Him the fruits, that is described in this passage?

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I'd say the Lord of the vineyard parallels Jesus' coming to earth. The vineyard's being given to others parallels the coming in of Gentiles into the kingdom, which happened in Acts 10-11. If I'm correct, this would mean it has already happened.

mindlight said:

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

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We waited even longer for the promised Messiah...so, no surprise we continue to wait. For us, our lot is to see to the affairs of His church while we wait.

Jesus hasn't come back because all people the Father has given to Him have not come to Him. He will return when the last person to be saved...is saved.

mindlight said:

After 2000 years why are we still waiting for the return of the King of Kings?

It was a clear expectation of the early church that Jesus would return soon. Peter even made a special effort to debunk the intellectual pagans and false teachers of his time who suggested that this was a lie and that there would be no return. In 2 Peter 1:16-21 Peter used, as the basis of his refutation of this false accusation, the experience of James, John and Peter of the Transfiguration on the Holy Mountain (where the Messiah is expected to return). Because they had seen the glorified Christ they knew that He would one day return in that same glory as the King of Kings. No one on this earth had a comparable majesty , so only Jesus could be the King we waited for. The martyrs went to their deaths in the various persecutions of the Roman empire under Nero, Domitian and later Trajan and Marcus Aurelius singing the praises of this King and in the expectation that their King, the Returning King Jesus, would soon hold corrupt demonically inspired authorities to account and that the Emperor would get his comeuppance. But 2000 years later we are still waiting. It is the strongest prophecy of the Christian church, it is the overwhelming expectation of the church, ensuring that we live lives in expectation of our final review by the returning King. It is written into our creeds.

"He will return in glory to judge the Living and the Dead and his Kingdom will have no end"

But where is he, what possible reason could there be for keeping his bride waiting so long?

Click to expand...

The world wasn't full yet. We are just now beginning to fill the entire world, with some room to spare. Do farmers pick their harvest before their field is full? He will come back when the harvest is full and ripe.

mindlight said:

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord the Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son He is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the prophets.

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do you know the name of the Holy Spirit living in you?