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Why has Christianity failed in America?

Sep 25, 2023
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No. SOURCE or ROOTS of morality, “glad heart”, in spirit.

My calling is to bring three ideas up for a “vote” within this site and within the larger Christian community:

1. Christianity needs to SERVE “true spirituality”. “True” can be somewhat operationally defined by:

a. That which consistently WORKS for each open-minded and open-hearted person who is trying to be spiritual, or at least contemplating (laying out a floor plan, metaphorically speaking, for a holy “temple,” staging area, regarding…) the possibility of becoming spiritual, “anointed.”

b. That which has stood the test of time for those who have devoted their lives to growing spiritually.

Vote Yes or No


2. We Christians need to de-conflate intentionality from (egoistic) “control.”
If we don’t, then we invite authoritarianism into our chosen vehicle of spiritual growth. It will eventually blow the engine of our vehicle, because it is spiritually disempowering, the opposite of Jesus Christ’s likely “intent.” Trust in God means utilizing the resources from the deep God zone within all of us. It is an inside-out willing and willingness to lovingly improve self and others (including the “world”). It is a false choice to have to decide between God’s control or our own. God-assisted intentionally is an option that gets overlooked when we don’t discern the difference between intentionality and (egoistic, surface-centric) control. We have sustainable relative “control” when we intentionally channel the deep, convergent, zone of “self” and reality.

Vote yes or no

3. We Christians also need to de-conflate “confidence” and “ego.” It is not necessarily egotistical to have confidence. Faith without confidence, with only a feigned “meekness,” becomes an invitation for egoistic strong men to take over (authoritarianism). True confidence is supported by tapping into the deep God-zone of self and reality. The unknown (and impressionistic, not definitively known) can assist the known in a way that makes true, actionable, faith. God can give us the confidence to use the power of positive self-fulfilling prophecy (a much deeper version of “fake it ‘til you make it). Love (confidently) leads the way.

Vote yes or no
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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The primary values of America are no longer the sacred, tradition, the family and self-sacrifice, but the profane, personal innovation, the individual and personal advantage. When you value the right to blaspheme God more than you value defending God from said blasphemy, you're in a society which has already lost it's Christian religion and replaced it with another. People follow power and all the institutions of meaningful power in the USA inculcate a view which is ultimately detrimental to public Christianity.

There is perhaps something to be said about an older American identity but when you enmesh yourself and your civilization with the doctrines of the secularists and the enlightenment, how can you expect public Christianity to stay intact? You've conceded the primary value of society as not being God, but something inane as personal liberty and 'freedom'. Christianity historically did not grow by attaching itself to such values, but it grew by insisting that it was right and the world was wrong. That there is a public order that is right before God and society should be expected to conform to that order.

The energy of the Apostles and the early Christians was one of hostility to the world, not passivity. If American Christians want to recapture the culture, they need to understand how America as it currently stands, with all it's values, is basically incompatible with Christianity. They will need to think in radically different ways politically and theologically and be much more skeptical and hostile to the current system as it stands. Thankfully there are communities of Christians out there that try to adhere to a decent vision of life.
 
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Stephen3141

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I don't know how to efficiently respond to the basic assertion in this thread -- the slide toward decadence, of America.

I think that a number of themes and trends, are being lumped into one perception, by the assertion.

-- The Americas, when Europe became aware that they existed, became
a new opportunity for business. This boosted Western Europe, with
regard to economic wealth.

-- The United States, in the founding documents, was founded by all sorts of
Christian groups. But, they recognized the horrendous 100 years of war in
Europe, by Christian groups (Calvinist, Lutheran, and Catholic), that they did
not want to repeat. So the founders of America specifically wrote in "freedom
of religion" in the founding documents, in order to avoid this horrendous
Christian warfare, in continental America.

-- "Separation of church and state" has always meant that America is not a
theocracy. Some people who point to the decadent slide of Americans, do
not seem to realize this.

-- The European Enlightenment, was not the beginning of decadence.
Although anti-intellectual Protestant Fundamentalists, may see it this way,
Christian groups who embrace the goodness of the life of the mind, do
not.

-- The slide of American Christian groups, into intellectual incoherency, is
more a problem of ceasing to teach historical philosophy and logic, and moral
theory. And failing to understand that the historic secular philosophers also
accepted, heavily, values and virtues that intersect with historical Christianity.

-- In the last 4 generation in America, Christian congregations have avoided
serious catechism. The result is a progressive slide toward people who call
themselves "Christian", but have little idea what orthodox Christian beliefs
are. Now, many people who use the language that "America has become
decadent," don't themselves hold to orthodox Christian beliefs. And so, this
language of "decadence" has become more a marker of cultural differences,
cut free from orthodox Christian doctrine.

Across the Christian groups in America, the younger generations have ditched
formal logic, and a biblical definition of our shared reality, and the concept of
global truth. What has replaced this is the elevation of emotions, and the elevation
of arbitrary native cultural beliefs, as definers of truth. None of this, is compatible
with Christianity.

I don't know how to efficiently address your assertion that America has become more and
more "decadent". you need to specifically define what you mean by "decadent".
 
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SavedByGrace3

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I am not sure what your expectations are. I do not see where any nation will be fully converted and become perpetually righteous. In large part, the church is just a vacuum cleaner being run across the land designed to pick up those who should be saved, and the rest will apostatize, degenerate, and pass. We are there now in America. It is pretty much over for the US. When we, as a nation, adopted abominations as the norm, we turned the corner toward the end. We are now in the process of building the machine that will apostatize the nation and actively and purposefully persecute believers. A valley of decision. A time of confusion for the last 30 years. Those with eyes can see it happening before our eyes. I have been watching it happen for 50 years. The line was crossed when Obama lit up the WH with the LGBTQ colors. A fist in the face of God, daring Him to act. I believe this is all the leading edge of the antichrist spirit in America and the world. Pray for your families and all believers. Stand strong in His word. Do not draw back. Blessings to you.
 
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okay

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Wait. So the action that crossed the line and was
A fist in the face of God, daring Him to act.
Wasn’t enslaving millions of people
Or brutality against indigenous people
Or using atomic bombs against large civilian populations
Or internment camps
Or Jim Crow
Or lynchings
Or not caring for the widows, or the poor, or the orphans or refugees.
Or systems that we have in place that perpetuate injustice

No. According to you
The line was crossed when Obama lit up the WH with the LGBTQ colors.
So it is rainbow lights at the white house. Worse than anything on my list…


My late father (who was a straight, white Christian man) put it this way:

“Isn’t it curious that the straight men who lead the church insist that the worst things people can do is be in a gay relationship or have an abortion, neither of which they would ever want or be able to do?”

And the non-believers around us perceive this better than those of us in the faith.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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Yes... those things were indeed evil. But as bad as they were and are, none of them would lead to the extinction of mankind. I suspect, if allowed to continue, because of this behavior, associated behavior, and resultant effects, the species would cease to exist within a century. It is the normalization of this behavior that caused the line to be crossed.
 
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okay

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The overwhelming majority of people on the planet are straight. And of course it isn’t unusual for gay couples to have children (adoption, artificial insemination, etc). There is no way the species will cease to exist in a century from this. Since our planet is getting overpopulated, slowing growth would be a good thing.

If extinction is the metric, then I don’t understand why ushering in the nuclear era isn’t at the top of your list. We ‘normalized’ killing civilians one city at a time.

Also, what is your view on sin associated with climate change? The US has pumped more than our fair share of pollution into the atmosphere. The impending climate disaster will be devastating if we don’t do something soon. I know many young people that are very worried about this. Having a loud part of the church denying climate change (and Christian organizations actively lobbying against regulations that might help slow it down) is one of many things we do that makes Christianity unattractive to our neighbors.
 
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okay

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This is a conspiracy theory that shouldn’t be propagated without serious evidence.

What evidence can you provide to support this rumor?
 
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YorkieGal

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It's easy to denigrate the US and suppose we never held values because that's what the media tells us. However, why don't you speak to the Dutch, Germans and English who fled to the US for religious freedom because, if they didn't, they would be murdered? Do your research on where slavery originated before condemning the US for it as though it never existed before the country.

Try seeing the world for what it is and was and not how you are told it is/was by people who have an agenda. Travel more and learn and you will find that some of the things you thought were correct are, in fact, very wrong.
 
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okay

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Yes, our history is a mixed bag of really good things like religious freedom and really bad things like slavery.

But this thread is about why Christianity is in decline and what has gone wrong, so of course we are considering our faults. Pointing out all the things we have done right is for another thread. Heck, the history classes I had in public school growing up were 99% about the ‘good’ stuff we did. Only in adulthood did I really learn about and start to understand the impact of our atrocities. I’m glad my kids got at least a slightly more balanced view in school than I did.

I am strongly for religious freedom, and our constitution makes it clear that we preserve that freedom by not allowing us to have a state church/religion. This is why recent moves to put the 10 commandments in public schools, to use public funds for religious schools, and members of congress saying “the church is supposed to direct the government” (Rep. Boebert) scare me. I think it threatens religious freedom for all.

Finally, whether or not we invented slavery has no bearing on how sinful it was for us to engage in it.
 
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Hazelelponi

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To say that Christianity is "failing" in America is to say that Jesus failed in his promise to loose none that God gave into His Hand, or that God failed to put them there.

No, even in America the church is flourishing.

What is also flourishing is sin, but no one hides sin anymore. It's out in the open and there's no longer any social contract about sin. Once there was a general acceptance of what was right and wrong whether they believed in or practiced Christianity or not. That's no longer the case.

Christianity has never had to be the biggest for it to be called Christian and it's always been hated by the world.

Now instead of the wheat and the chaff growing together I think more are just leaving the church. Giving us a little more realistic look at what Christianity is actually doing.

I don't think we are less religious a nation than say, the early 90's but I would say people are less likely to pretend to be.

That's just my thinking honestly. No proof of it but it's definitely something to consider.
 
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YorkieGal

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But this thread is about why Christianity is in decline and what has gone wrong, so of course we are considering our faults. Pointing out all the things we have done right is for another thread.
Fair point.

For clarity, I addressed the other points because I think biasing the 'sins' of a nation as the reason Christianity is in decline is not an accurate premise, especially in isolation.

We do have to take into consideration the fact that Christianity is weaponized politically and internally and has resulted in false prophets, teachings etc. So, what we don't have is Christianity at all but a version which serves an agenda.

This is why, in my view, Christianity does not fare as well as it should. There are far too many genuine Christians who stay silent instead of loudly protest against false teachings. People are way too concerned about how society will view them if they proclaim the truth. So, the louder voices (anti-Christians, false teachers etc) are heard by the masses and the ignorant suppose these are the voices of truth.

As a result, to outsiders, Christians seem divided, Christianity is not unified and there is no respect for a house divided amongst itself.

IMO.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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And Christianity is a countercultural minority. This other thing often called "Christianity". weaponized politically and internally, a version which serves an agenda, I wish we had another name for it.
 
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Hazelelponi

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And Christianity is a countercultural minority. This other thing often called "Christianity". weaponized politically and internally, a version which serves an agenda, I wish we had another name for it.

I thought it had a name - Dominionism?

Was I incorrect?

I have had occasion to say "eh, I'm not voting for him because he's a dominionist" before... Which I assumed was the correct vernacular...
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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2PhiloVoid

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The unfortunate thing is that Christians have always been divided in America, especially during its previous Colonial Era ...

It's always been like, "We're a City of Light Upon a Hill, so look at us world while we Christians in the U.S. tar and feather each other !!!"

All we did is bring the civil and religious tensions with us which existed in the Europe of the 1600s, and then we "domesticated" the ways in which we then went about denouncing each other. .... all the while doing it in the "Name of Christ," of course!

I mean, I could be wrong, but I feel like...................somehow.........................we could all do better.
Oh, but maybe not. Maybe that's just a pipe dream I carry around.
 
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YorkieGal

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Not sure I would agree with that. Like I said, factions have politicized and weaponized religion, including Christianity but there is no 'we' in that, only they.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Not sure I would agree with that. Like I said, factions have politicized and weaponized religion, including Christianity but there is no 'we' in that, only they.

I will say I definitely agree with you that various factions have politicized and weaponized religion and Christianity in the U.S.

It's a sad case all the way around, for sure.
 
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biblelesson

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America will be punished - she is Babylon today:

Revelation 16:19 KJV, “And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.”


Revelation 18:1-24 KJV
18 “And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.”

2 “And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.”

3 “For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.”

4 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

5 “For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.”

6 “Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.”

7 “How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.”

8 “Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.”

9 “And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,”

10 “Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.”

11 “And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:”

12 “The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,”

13 “And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.”

14 “And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.”

15 “The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,”

16 “And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!”

17 “For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,”

18 “And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!”

19 “And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.”

20 “Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.”

21 “And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.”

22 “And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;”

23 “And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.”

24 “And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.”
 
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