Why Haggard bothers me........

[KarrieTex]

Judging him..Im not his judge. I think its legitimate to look at people in leadership positions and how they influence things. We criticize politicians who are representatives of their beliefs.

I find it odd that its not OK to discuss the problems of high profile christians who commit blatant sins. Its part of our belief system. Judging him isnt what Im doing. Im stating why I am bothered by it. Just because your a christian doesnt give you a pass on accountability. As a leader of millions of evangelicals he needs accountability. just saying, all the best for him is like saying, no big deal.

Words I say on the interent are just discussions about issues and current events that affect our faith. Forgiveness is part of our faith and he should recieve it from all of us if he's genuine but he betrayed his family most importantly and 10's of thousands whom he represented. jmho.

I would say by your words what it looks like to another is you are judging him.

It also looks like you are judging a church by what it does for it's congregation.

I would loath to see if you walked into my church of 45,000. With a resturanut, 5 campuses throughout the city, a private school, it's own armed security, media outreach , and all the other little things it has.

I doubt you would see that it has a huge ministry and love for Houston (not talking about Lakewood here) and a pastor that has his life threatened continually for preaching the word of God who leads a church that is on fire for God.

 

[chris777]

think it bothers me because its a perfect example of the problem with making christianity into a rockstar lifestyle. Conservative rock star of course. Big Screens, High Tech bands, live TV feeds, mass marketing, million dollar best selling books, multi million dollar buildings.

All of christianity rests on the character of the people claiming it. Haggard was the poster child for neo con evangelicals. His best buddy was james dobson and next door neighbor. He rapped with Bush weekly. He set a prototype for churchianity.

What does this modern christianity build itself upon ? My answer is it builds itself on the same principle NIKE does. million dollar athletes scribble their name on a 3 dollar shoe made in a sweat shop and poof they are worth 150 dollars. Its a marketing machine that has no foundation. It luxuriates in the offerings of people, funnelled into big buildings and beautiful parsonages.

Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america.

What ever happened to the poor despised laborer of nazareth that had to do day work to help feed his family ? The man who was nailed to a cross for words he said ? What about Paul who was in constant need and in prison, asking for a cloak and some parchment.

Something is drastically wrong.

I highlighted some of what really stood out to me, I am not pointing fingers, or judging anyone, But I see a Sick and dying church. Its puffed up like a baloon, and all it needs is a needle to make it dissapear.
I have no problem with a large church as long as the converts are genuine. in that they know what they are getting into, and they believe the gospel.
So many of these mega churches, are founded upon compromise, and or secular thought teachings and doctrine. Sure they proclaim the gospel in part, but the part that they add, and the part that they diminish is what i am concerned with.

I have been troubles with a great many things since becomin ga christian , In my research I have discovered a great many of the people responcible for many modern denominations have also strayed, and or taught things in contradiction to scripture.
I disagree with much of the catholic churches doctrines, yet I Personally don't think martin luthers rebellion against it was nessesarily the right thing to do, as it has clearly caused diviciveness. And as much as I like being an american, I feel like the whole american revolution was one big act of rebellion, that we are proud of. Since when were these things of God?

One thing I have noticed about many of these mega churches is a LArge GLOBE in the background, I may be wrong but to me it insinuates a love of the world. and is borderline golden calf. I realize most see these things as innoculous, and innocent, and I am not saying it was malicious or what not, but it stands out to me as love of the world, and the things of it.
We should be concerned for our brothers and sisters ,and especially the lost, not a big cushy fancy entertaining stadium, with plush accomodations, and elaborateness, but rather with feeding and clothing the hungry and poor.
ve heard the pastor at the church i have been attending speak of building a basketball court, and whatnot, and It bothers me that people now seem to think we need some sort of hook to lure people in to the Love, and Truth of Christ, and that they have to be entertained, or delighted, like movie audiences, when there are so many people clearly in far more need than entertainment.
Hungry, naked, sick, cold, parentless, lost.
I saw one of those shows about a 4 or 5 yr old boy in africa or another foreigh nation hunting Rats for a meal for him and his family, and drinking infested water, and we are worried about entertaining people.
Yup somethig is not right

 

[Sennaria]

So many of these mega churches, are founded upon compromise, and or secular thought teachings and doctrine. Sure they proclaim the gospel in part, but the part that they add, and the part that they diminish is what i am concerned with.
I would just watch the broad brush affliction. I am familiar with some "megachurches" that are strict gospel, no man-made doctrine and their fruit show what they are. Yes there are those that perhaps have strayed from the path also, just like a lot of denominations. This comes from too much man wisdom and not enough God wisdom. It happens everywhere. I think we need to watch or be careful of branding churches that are big as being bad.

One thing I have noticed about many of these mega churches is a LArge GLOBE in the background, I may be wrong but to me it insinuates a love of the world. and is borderline golden calf.
I guarantee that any of these churches would tell you that the large globe is a symbol of our "Great Commission" Go ye out to ALL the world and preach the Gospel. The first and foremost thing we as christians are to be doing. These churches have large and HUGE mission budgets and missionaries that they support and are a huge part of getting the gospel out to ALL the world. It's not worshipping the world at all.

We should be concerned for our brothers and sisters ,and especially the lost, not a big cushy fancy entertaining stadium, with plush accomodations, and elaborateness, but rather with feeding and clothing the hungry and poor. They do do this. And too many people are looking at the front and size and making bad judgments. I am a bit tired of hearing them get slammed, for I have seen the good that they do.
ve heard the pastor at the church i have been attending speak of building a basketball court, and whatnot, and It bothers me that people now seem to think we need some sort of hook to lure people in to the Love, and Truth of Christ, and that they have to be entertained, or delighted, like movie audiences, when there are so many people clearly in far more need than entertainment.These churches are the center of many many christian lives as they should be. Why not? Why not have activities that can be fun and entertaining and a place to go and have fun like play basketball in a non-secular area? With people of like minds? AND how many of these churches use these facilities to have events and activities for the general public and their local communities, to be a Light for the area, the communities etc?


Hungry, naked, sick, cold, parentless, lost. These churches and ministries go there.
I saw one of those shows about a 4 or 5 yr old boy in africa or another foreigh nation hunting Rats for a meal for him and his family, and drinking infested water, and we are worried about entertaining people. Again, these churches and ministries go there, take care of them, so why do people insist on slamming them? When have you gone there, even only by supporting them financially or even physically?

Quit judging a church by there size and start judging them by their fruits. This applies to a church of 20 people or a church of a million people. It's all in their fruits, and we are not to judge, only God is to judge.

Yup somethig is not right
Yup, something is not right, when churches who are working their butts off get criticized because they are successful, or are deemed to big; in someone else's eyes, rather than by looking at the good fruits and saved lives, and missions work etc that they are doing.

I'll never say that every church is perfect, as that is a foolhardy statement. But so is deeming every megachurch as bad.
We need to focus on the Great Commission at our level, and see what we can be doing as individuals, rather than focusing on what others are doing. God will judge all by their heart and fruits, its not to us to judge anyone or thing. When's the last time you supplied Christmas dinner to those who would not have dinner otherwise??

Sennaria

 

[SeraphimSophia]

Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america.

I agree. I think I would have phrased it differently though!

Someone said something about people hoping that this would shake the faith of Christians, but they implied it as a negative.

I hope this does shake the faith of Christians. Too many are becomming complascent. They need to been shaken. Where is the Christian love?

I want to see more love from our Christian leaders. I've heard horrible things from some of them, and now when I tell people I'm a Christian, those that are not Christian pull away from me. We're scarring them.

 

[zealot66]

Its just frustrating to me that you cant voice any discontent with the Sacred Cows of american christianity or call a spade a spade without someone saying, Dont judge. Paul said that certain members should be cast out of the church. Thats harsh. Haggard shouldnt be cast out of the church at large or its help because his family most of all needs that support but He should be cast out of the movement and his leadership now and anytime in the future. To the member of that church. Wow, what a headache and shock that must be. But it sounds like the people in charge are moving forward and I wish the best for you all. Dan

 

[Sennaria]

Its just frustrating to me that you cant voice any discontent with the Sacred Cows of american christianity or call a spade a spade without someone saying, Dont judge. Paul said that certain members should be cast out of the church. Thats harsh. Haggard shouldnt be cast out of the church at large or its help because his family most of all needs that support but He should be cast out of the movement and his leadership now and anytime in the future. To the member of that church. Wow, what a headache and shock that must be. But it sounds like the people in charge are moving forward and I wish the best for you all. Dan

I'm not sure of what you are speaking. Haggards situation got handled as scripturally as one can. They did everything according to God's will and Word. As far as Sacred Cows? Not sure what you mean there either.....but I do have a problem with Christians who should know better than to judge things they don't have the knowledge to judge. And I shall also say here there is a difference between judging, using wisdom and using discernment.
Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment
in reference to the above Joh 7;24 Alot of judging goes on in accordance to appearance (megachurches ya know), but who among us can judge a righteous judgement; I know I cannot, so I'd rather not take the chance on making an unwise judgment

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at naught thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Anyway, perhaps some of these are why we should not judge but leave it to God to be our Judge?

Have a good night everyone!

Sennaria

 

[zealot66]

Again, what is judging ? Like I said, If I say it bothers me for X reason, how is that judging ?

Every conservative wanted to judge bill clinton over a heterosexual encounter and said he should be impeached. Where was the christian church saying, dont judge this man based on a sin ? No where.

Yet if a man of God, a representative of millions of christians interests performs a homosexual act repeatedly and uses drugs, we cant judge. Im confused. Please explain what judging is and isnt. Im not trying to be combative. I just cant understand the 'pass' on coming right out and calling a spade a spade.

Now, I did like his letter saying he was a liar and hypocrite. That was honesty. I truly feel most sorry for his family. I dont feel sorry for him. I feel like anyone with integrity and commitment to christ would have removed himself. He didnt even need to divulge the reason why. But he took a stand against homosexuals and gay marraige. And he's going to be seen on the Jesus Camp doing just that.

As I said in my first post, I havent laughed once about it. Its a tremendous blow and will leave more christian leaders in disrepute and suspicion. Im just sharing why this bothered me to my core.

 

[Sennaria]

Actually, looking back, we are on two different pages.

I have been referring to Chris777's post in which I responded within his quote about megachurch's. Though your sacred cows comment did hit me wrong.

I am referring to judging a type of church...the big church's...refer to his post if you care. I am not referring to Haggard at all.

However, I shall stand by also and say as I have before and as Karrie said.....we shouldn't judge people also.

You say..."Every conservative wanted to judge bill clinton over a heterosexual encounter and said he should be impeached. Where was the christian church saying, dont judge this man based on a sin ? No where."
I didn't want to judge him...I didn't vote for him, didn't respect him as a president and still don't. I prayed a lot for the man and still do. That's the best I can do. Tis funny though in this case, people say, you say or ask anyway that the church should have said something about Clinton and not judging him.....yet in other cases the church should have no say when it comes to politics though, if you think about what you just said.

When it comes right down to it....groups, people doesn't matter......if they mess up, it should be handled the appropriate way (scriptural way if it involves a church member or leader- legal way if non-secular or government)....not hidden....then moved on and prayed for healing. Not hashed over and over and over.

Anyway, I'm moving on, as I really have not been talking to your posts, but to the megachurch posts.....

ohhh and by the way.....for a lot of churches I would agree with your comment "
Originally Posted by zealot66
Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america."


What is wrong is that they are forgetting God in their religion and so is the whole country and its affecting christianity. Though there are glimmers of hope if one looks hard enough.

Sennaria

 

[chris777]

I'll never say that every church is perfect, as that is a foolhardy statement. But so is deeming every megachurch as bad.
We need to focus on the Great Commission at our level, and see what we can be doing as individuals, rather than focusing on what others are doing. God will judge all by their heart and fruits, its not to us to judge anyone or thing. When's the last time you supplied Christmas dinner to those who would not have dinner otherwise??

Sennaria

you seemed to have missed an earlier sentence.

"I have no problem with a large church as long as the converts are genuine. in that they know what they are getting into, and they believe the gospel."

I wasnt pointing to any particular church, and I was hoping I was alluding to checking their fruit, though I guess I should have explicitly stated so.

Particularly when they shy away from the truth, and do not stand on the Gospel as truth, one that does come to mind is oosteen.

but other than that i leave it for you to judge their fruit.

And i Agree with other posters, we are to rebuke each other, and judge the fruit. God will hold us more accountable than the lost.

I wasnt picking on any particular church, but american churches in general. I think we are infected with pride, and we need some humility.

I understand what you are saying, but we are told to judge ourselves.

 

[churchrat]

I've been wondering who's offering Haggard more support and comfort at the lowest moment of his life: the Christian community or the gay community?

 

[KarrieTex]

Every conservative wanted to judge bill clinton over a heterosexual encounter and said he should be impeached. Where was the christian church saying, dont judge this man based on a sin ? No where.

As a conservative Christian, I can most certainly tell you it wasn't Clinton messing around with yet another woman that irked me to no end, it was the PRESIDENT of the US LYING under oath.

Yet if a man of God, a representative of millions of christians interests performs a homosexual act repeatedly and uses drugs, we cant judge. Im confused. Please explain what judging is and isnt. Im not trying to be combative. I just cant understand the 'pass' on coming right out and calling a spade a spade.

You are judging the person and not the act. There is no concern for this man at all in any of your posts. Do you think it's going to be easy for him as a Believer to have to deal with this so openly to the media now? He has asked for forgiveness and stated he is wrong. As the Bible says it is now time for us to FORGIVE him and help.

Not one of your posts is about that. His church did what they needed to do Bibically and that is enough. Stop beating the man and start forgiving him and praying for God to heal his heart.

You also seem to be so wrapped up in the image of Christianity. Who cares??? It doesn't matter if we as the Body are on the straight and narrow for Christ or not. They, the world, will mock us at every turn.

Get your focus off of image and what a man does in his sin and focus on what Christ is leading you to do in this world and forgiveness of those in the Body who do sin.

 

[Sennaria]

you seemed to have missed an earlier sentence.

"I have no problem with a large church as long as the converts are genuine. in that they know what they are getting into, and they believe the gospel."

I wasnt pointing to any particular church, and I was hoping I was alluding to checking their fruit, though I guess I should have explicitly stated so.

Particularly when they shy away from the truth, and do not stand on the Gospel as truth, one that does come to mind is oosteen.

but other than that i leave it for you to judge their fruit.

And i Agree with other posters, we are to rebuke each other, and judge the fruit. God will hold us more accountable than the lost.

I wasnt picking on any particular church, but american churches in general. I think we are infected with pride, and we need some humility.

I understand what you are saying, but we are told to judge ourselves.

I think what we are missing in speaking with each other is that what you are calling judging, I am perhaps more inclined to think of discerning. Or perhaps it is judging, but not to the point of a final judgement as only God can do that. If we see a wrong, even in a Church, if we feel like the church is off track....pray for it...most definitely. But don't spread talk about it and not act on it.
I think what bothers me the most are those who judge churches, people and all they can do is talk and spread it. They don't pray or anything about it. That, to me is wrong.

Other than that, I do understand what you are saying, and agree for the most part I think.

Sennaria

 

[Sennaria]

Every conservative wanted to judge bill clinton over a heterosexual encounter and said he should be impeached. Where was the christian church saying, dont judge this man based on a sin ? No where.

As a conservative Christian, I can most certainly tell you it wasn't Clinton messing around with yet another woman that irked me to no end, it was the PRESIDENT of the US LYING under oath.

Yet if a man of God, a representative of millions of christians interests performs a homosexual act repeatedly and uses drugs, we cant judge. Im confused. Please explain what judging is and isnt. Im not trying to be combative. I just cant understand the 'pass' on coming right out and calling a spade a spade.

You are judging the person and not the act. There is no concern for this man at all in any of your posts. Do you think it's going to be easy for him as a Believer to have to deal with this so openly to the media now? He has asked for forgiveness and stated he is wrong. As the Bible says it is now time for us to FORGIVE him and help.

Not one of your posts is about that. His church did what they needed to do Bibically and that is enough. Stop beating the man and start forgiving him and praying for God to heal his heart.

You also seem to be so wrapped up in the image of Christianity. Who cares??? It doesn't matter if we as the Body are on the straight and narrow for Christ or not. They, the world, will mock us at every turn.

Get your focus off of image and what a man does in his sin and focus on what Christ is leading you to do in this world and forgiveness of those in the Body who do sin.

Very well stated Karrie!!

p.s. Watching the game?? My whole family are Longhorn fans, I love to "Gig em Aggies" just to rile 'em up. Even trying to get my 4 yr old granddaughter to say it, then when she gets home,ohhhhhh my daughter would so kill me

Sennaria

 

[chris777]

I think what we are missing in speaking with each other is that what you are calling judging, I am perhaps more inclined to think of discerning. Or perhaps it is judging, but not to the point of a final judgement as only God can do that. If we see a wrong, even in a Church, if we feel like the church is off track....pray for it...most definitely. But don't spread talk about it and not act on it.
I think what bothers me the most are those who judge churches, people and all they can do is talk and spread it. They don't pray or anything about it. That, to me is wrong.

Other than that, I do understand what you are saying, and agree for the most part I think.

Sennaria

Yes its listed as judge in KJV, I wasnt saying condemn, I frequently get railed on when I say we should pray for some of the less "desirables" in our population, particularly the enemies of our state, and criminals.

I had been an outsider to the church till 2000 roughly, and as a person deeply rooted in secular thought, much of the scripture seemed alien to me at first.
Then when I realized that I as a person, was basicly evil, it threw my existence view (worldview) out the window.
So I started noticing things that the church did that were either added to scripture, or just plain out against it.

I know I may come off as sounding harsh, or condemning, but that is not my intention, However, I feel strongly that the church is so deeply infected with the leaven of the world few realize it, or even care.

 

[artybloke]

and as a person deeply rooted in secular thought

What is secular thought?

Usually, it means anything our little tiny twig in the church tree doesn't like, or what some jumped-up little pope says isn't biblical.

 

[KarrieTex]

Very well stated Karrie!!

p.s. Watching the game?? My whole family are Longhorn fans, I love to "Gig em Aggies" just to rile 'em up. Even trying to get my 4 yr old granddaughter to say it, then when she gets home,ohhhhhh my daughter would so kill me

Sennaria

Did you see that sucker punch that hurt Colt McCoy in the game??

Very unhappy about the loss