Why Haggard bothers me........

[zealot66]

think it bothers me because its a perfect example of the problem with making christianity into a rockstar lifestyle. Conservative rock star of course. Big Screens, High Tech bands, live TV feeds, mass marketing, million dollar best selling books, multi million dollar buildings.


All of christianity rests on the character of the people claiming it. Haggard was the poster child for neo con evangelicals. His best buddy was james dobson and next door neighbor. He rapped with Bush weekly. He set a prototype for churchianity.

What does this modern christianity build itself upon ? My answer is it builds itself on the same principle NIKE does. million dollar athletes scribble their name on a 3 dollar shoe made in a sweat shop and poof they are worth 150 dollars. Its a marketing machine that has no foundation. It luxuriates in the offerings of people, funnelled into big buildings and beautiful parsonages.

Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america.

What ever happened to the poor despised laborer of nazareth that had to do day work to help feed his family ? The man who was nailed to a cross for words he said ? What about Paul who was in constant need and in prison, asking for a cloak and some parchment.

Something is drastically wrong.

 

[Voegelin]

Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america.

As opposed to where? Quite a wide brush you are painting with there. The use of "neocon" leads me to believe you are on the left. Are you? You've written off most evangelicals. What about Catholics? Like Archbishop Chaput? What about Francis Cardinal Arinze? Any particular Christian religious leader you do admire?

I don't believe Haggard is representative of anything but himself. Far as the mega-churches you say are a negative influence, Christianity has had bigger megachurches in the past. Haggia Sophia, Winchester Cathedral and Chartres for three. They encompassed the entire community and surroundings areas. The center of medieval life. Which was quite a good life considering the technology they had to work with.

 

[Calminaion]

think it bothers me because its a perfect example of the problem with making christianity into a rockstar lifestyle. Conservative rock star of course. Big Screens, High Tech bands, live TV feeds, mass marketing, million dollar best selling books, multi million dollar buildings.


All of christianity rests on the character of the people claiming it. Haggard was the poster child for neo con evangelicals. His best buddy was james dobson and next door neighbor. He rapped with Bush weekly. He set a prototype for churchianity.

What does this modern christianity build itself upon ? My answer is it builds itself on the same principle NIKE does. million dollar athletes scribble their name on a 3 dollar shoe made in a sweat shop and poof they are worth 150 dollars. Its a marketing machine that has no foundation. It luxuriates in the offerings of people, funnelled into big buildings and beautiful parsonages.

Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america.

What ever happened to the poor despised laborer of nazareth that had to do day work to help feed his family ? The man who was nailed to a cross for words he said ? What about Paul who was in constant need and in prison, asking for a cloak and some parchment.

Something is drastically wrong.

There are so many other issues in your post we'd have to deal with before we even began to dig into the issue with Haggard, but for now I have two questions:

1. Have you ever met Ted Haggard?

2. What is your sources of information about the man?

 

[marke]

I was expecting not to agree with this post because I thought I was going to find someone throwing stones at this poor man.

I don't subscribe to Haggard's teaching, but none the less I feel real bad about what happened to this man and pray he will find the forgiveness he seeks.

Zeolot66 makes a good point. Christianity is sick today. Jesus said evil will not win over the church, but evil is giving the church a good run for the money.

Speaking of money. Did you hear of the two priests who stole $8.7million dollars from the church? What is a church doing with that kind of money when the majority of the world lives on less that $3.00 a day. What a difference that money could have made in rebuilding New Orleans.

Wrong teaching abounds. Until Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson corrupted Christianity for their personal ambitions back in 1979, Church was the one place you could escape the weight of the world. Not so today. Ministers of error abound and anything seems to go as long as you tithe so the ministers of misinformation can serve themselves from the gifts given to help the poor.

Let us start a revival of truth and stand up for Jesus who is getting a bum rap from the impostors who call themselves "Christians" but clearly by their actions are the deceivers we have been warned against.

People who do the things God hates...

Pro 14:5 A faithful witness will not lie: but a false witness will utter lies.
Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Pro 14:25 A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful witness speaketh lies.
Pro 6:16 These six Jehovah hates; yea, seven are hateful to his soul:
Pro 6:17 a proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 a heart that plots wicked plans, feet hurrying to run to evil,
Pro 6:19 a false witness who speaks lies, and he who causes fighting among brothers.
Pro 8:32 And now listen to me, O sons; for blessed are those who keep my ways.
Pro 8:33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and do not refuse it.
Pro 12:22 Lying lips are hateful to Jehovah, but those who deal truly are His delight.
Pro 16:7 When a man's ways please Jehovah, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.
Rom 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
1Th 5:15 See that none gives evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue the good, both towards one another and towards all.
Pro 20:11 Even a child is known by his own doings, whether his work is pure and whether it is right.
Pro 21:13 Whoever stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.
Pro 22:16 He who crushes the poor to multiply for himself, and he who gives to the rich, only to come to poverty.
Pro 24:29 Do not say, I will do so to him as he has done to me; I will give to the man according to his work.
Pro 25:19 Trust in an unfaithful man in time of trouble is like a broken tooth, and a foot out of joint.
Pro 29:7 The righteous knows the plea of the poor; the wicked cares not to know it.
Pro 29:12 If a ruler listens to lies, all his servants are wicked.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you yield yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to him whom you obey; whether it is of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness.

Are not "Godly" as some preachers assert and your church should not be associating, endorsing, voting for or supporting them in any way. Time and time again we are told to beware of those who speak what sounds correct, but is actually wrong teaching. Birds of a feather flock together and you'll discern who is in error, not by their words, but by their actions.

Don't harden your hearts. See things as they are, not as you would like them.

God Bless.

 

[Voegelin]

Wrong teaching abounds. Until Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson corrupted Christianity for their personal ambitions back in 1979, Church was the one place you could escape the weight of the world.

You lost me. I don't know any Christians who follow either (but then I'm not evangelical). All I know of Haggard is the name. Over half the Christians in the world aren't even Protestant so claiming two leaders of one segment of Protestantism located in one country corrupted a faith held by over two billion people is a stretch.

The only people I hear speak of Robertson and Falwell much are on the left and they are not evangelicals. The media likes to put Falwell on TV, I believe ,because it has found he does not come across well on TV.

There are lots of other places to go within Christianity if Falwell, Robertson and Haggard have you concerned over the state of the faith. Were you a member of one of their congregations? Is that the reason? I know Catholics (I'm sure everyone does) who are torn up over problems with their priesthood. But in an understandable way, that has drawn most of them closer to the church in an effort to restore it. I would be surprised if members of Haggard's congregation abandon their faith over this too.

 

[Harlan Norris]

think it bothers me because its a perfect example of the problem with making christianity into a rockstar lifestyle. Conservative rock star of course. Big Screens, High Tech bands, live TV feeds, mass marketing, million dollar best selling books, multi million dollar buildings.


All of christianity rests on the character of the people claiming it. Haggard was the poster child for neo con evangelicals. His best buddy was james dobson and next door neighbor. He rapped with Bush weekly. He set a prototype for churchianity.

What does this modern christianity build itself upon ? My answer is it builds itself on the same principle NIKE does. million dollar athletes scribble their name on a 3 dollar shoe made in a sweat shop and poof they are worth 150 dollars. Its a marketing machine that has no foundation. It luxuriates in the offerings of people, funnelled into big buildings and beautiful parsonages.

Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america.

What ever happened to the poor despised laborer of nazareth that had to do day work to help feed his family ? The man who was nailed to a cross for words he said ? What about Paul who was in constant need and in prison, asking for a cloak and some parchment.

Something is drastically wrong.

Praise God for you Zealot,thou hast spoken rightly.I'll stand along side of you,so you won't be lonely.Here in CF,this kind of talk is not encouraged...It has occoured to me that the cause of this mans downfall was his political association.How ironic that the very thing that fuled his ministry,brought him low. This is what we get for judging.Judgeing others and not ourselves...Were all so frightened of the GAY AGENDA.We think we can legislate it out of existance....Where do we think they are getting the money to forward that agenda?..Is it not our own sin that pays their way?..How can that be?one might say...Well,just yesterday after church,the wife and I went shopping for furniture,just for something to do.We have plenty.We went to a store that sells lower level furniture first.Still, it was expensive.Then we went to Stickly.A store that sells arts and crafts type furnishings for frankly outlandish prices.Then to Kacey,Not quite as expensive...Then we went down on Broadway and shopped antiques.The prices there were totally outrageous!A bed,headboard,footboard and rails,15,000.buckeroos. I also noticed that the proprietor of each of the three stores we visited,was appearantly GAY...So what should I being a good Christian do?Put up a picket?I didn't buy anything, so, what was my sin?...It was covetousness. Their money comes in large part from our covetousness.We want the things of the world. We covet them.Things we want but don't need.You know it's just as likely that one could get a bed at a garage sale or thrift store,for next to nothing.It would be perfectly good. It would serve it's intended purpose.And I could take the $14,900.00 I had saved and give that to the Christian Chrildrens fund or other such charity that feeds clothes and gives the word of God to those in need of it.None of the sins we hate could exist without our patronage.None of them.So, instead of looking at our own sin,we point the finger at the sin of another.Therefore our sin remains,as does theirs.

 

[artybloke]

All of christianity rests on the character of the people claiming it.

Much as I'm half on your side, this sentence bothered me. Christianity doesn't rest on our character: it rests on the character of Christ. We cannot possibly live up to Christ. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try; but if we prove fallible, we still have God's forgiveness. God will forgive even Ted Haggard for his concupiscence and the spirit of intolerance he preached, just as he forgives us.

 

[vossler]

Much as I'm half on your side, this sentence bothered me. Christianity doesn't rest on our character: it rests on the character of Christ. We cannot possibly live up to Christ. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try; but if we prove fallible, we still have God's forgiveness.

I rarely agree with you artybloke but on this point I agree 100%.

 

[Sennaria]

All of christianity rests on the character of the people claiming it. Haggard was the poster child for neo con evangelicals. His best buddy was james dobson and next door neighbor. He rapped with Bush weekly. He set a prototype for churchianity.

All of christianity should NOT be resting itself on the character of humans, it should be resting itself on Christ Himself. No one, except our Lord Jesus Christ should be the poster child. No person should be put on a pedastal. No big time evangelist or pastor or preacher is any more righteous than those of us down in the pews doing what we can to save souls. We are all the same in the eyes of God. As we can err and fail, so can they. We should do naught but pray for those who do fail.

What does this modern christianity build itself upon ? My answer is it builds itself on the same principle NIKE does. million dollar athletes scribble their name on a 3 dollar shoe made in a sweat shop and poof they are worth 150 dollars. Its a marketing machine that has no foundation. It luxuriates in the offerings of people, funnelled into big buildings and beautiful parsonages.

Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america.

Pretty broad brush to be sweeping across all of christianity in America. The sign of a good church, to me, imho, is one whose focus is on missions and reaching the lost. If they do this and their finances act accordingly, I have no problem with how big they are or how small they are. But if the focus is on their building fund, I want no part of them.

What ever happened to the poor despised laborer of nazareth that had to do day work to help feed his family ? The man who was nailed to a cross for words he said ? What about Paul who was in constant need and in prison, asking for a cloak and some parchment.

There is no place in the Bible that says we HAVE to be poor and do without anymore than it guarantees being rich and having everything a person could want. There are biblical principles in there to learn that can help someone with their finances just as there are principles for any other part of one's life. It just takes knowing them and putting them into consistent practice. (And no, I am not rich by any means at all...I'm not even paycheck to paycheck, I just will never accept that because I'm a Christian, I have to be poor, I just chose to open a small business.)

Something is drastically wrong.

Agreed, too many eyes on man and not enough eyes on Christ. He is lost in the shuffle.

Sennaria

 

[zealot66]

I knew when I wrote that that that would be the rebuttal. The theological nature of christianity is on christ but the practical outworking of bringing people in is the people who reach other people and the spokepersons who share the message.

Like it or not, its a huge blow to christianity in terms of face and the like. Im no fool or illiterate when it comes to scripture. I see a complete contradiction in the message of the kingdom of God in the hearts and minds of men and the people building earthly kingdoms under the name christianity.

I hope the best for him and his church. We all sin. We all have skeletons in our closet but if he truly had any integrity, he would have resigned from ministry when he knew he could not fight those demons. To go further and further into a corner he wasnt coming out of is dishonest and so very sad.

I do not sit as his judge nor any other mans. Its just facts about the practical outworking of such things. Hope that the future can be better than the present. Dan

 

[Sennaria]

zealot,
I wouldn't classify what I said as a rebuttal, perhaps it is. I was merely trying to speak as to the way it should be all over Christiandom, that doesn't mean it is the way that it is. And for that we should keep continuing prayer.

For yes, it is a blackeye for Christianity, when it comes to non-believers for they know not the difference to discern and will judge all Christians by this man.

Quite honestly I thought for the most part we were agreeing, and I was trying to speak in faith as to how, in my humble opinion, the body of Christ should be acting. I am not saying that there are no problems in the body, for I would be speaking foolishness. But one truly must take it one church body, by one church body, by one christian by one christian rather than broadstroking the whole group to discern rather they are truly acting on God's behalf or acting on their own or man's behalf.

Sennaria

 

[zealot66]

The unfortunate truth is that christianity is judged by the world by the people who preach it. The last thing I wanted to do was throw stones. If certain people had this same thing happen , I wouldnt bat an eye. The new wave of mega churches and the styles they use are what is at the forefront of ministry. Really horrific. I dont really keep up on people or their scandals but this is such a high profile person who in essence betrayes millions whom he claimed to represent. Its ramifications are likely not even beginning. Its good to see that the church is already moving on. What else can you do ?

BTW, someone said something about me being a leftist. thats hardly the case and even if it were, what difference would it make. Facts are facts.

 

[Sennaria]

The power of prayer is an amazing thing.


Sennaria

 

[Voegelin]

No secret there are those in America taking great glee in Haggard because they believe his fall will shake the faith of Christians and turn people away from the faith. Some forums are agog with excitment. Shows a profound lack of understanding of the faith in my opinion.

Among other things.

 

[zealot66]

I find each extreme disturbing. Those that already talk of restoration and hope for his future ( aside from his family which will suffer the most ) and those who say nanana told you so. Neither is what I say. I think its very unfortunate and symptomatic of certain things even if we dont want to believe it. I dont but I know there is more going on out there than we care to believe.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Mr. Haggard, Stated in his letter to the church that he had been molested as a child. He wasn't saying this as an excuse, but to let people know that because of this he had struggled since it happened.

This part of the letter was shared on DayStar. I don't have a link, but heard Marcus Lamb state this Tuesday.

 

[KarrieTex]

think it bothers me because its a perfect example of the problem with making christianity into a rockstar lifestyle. Conservative rock star of course. Big Screens, High Tech bands, live TV feeds, mass marketing, million dollar best selling books, multi million dollar buildings.


All of christianity rests on the character of the people claiming it. Haggard was the poster child for neo con evangelicals. His best buddy was james dobson and next door neighbor. He rapped with Bush weekly. He set a prototype for churchianity.

What does this modern christianity build itself upon ? My answer is it builds itself on the same principle NIKE does. million dollar athletes scribble their name on a 3 dollar shoe made in a sweat shop and poof they are worth 150 dollars. Its a marketing machine that has no foundation. It luxuriates in the offerings of people, funnelled into big buildings and beautiful parsonages.

Their is something fundamentally wrong with christianity in america.

What ever happened to the poor despised laborer of nazareth that had to do day work to help feed his family ? The man who was nailed to a cross for words he said ? What about Paul who was in constant need and in prison, asking for a cloak and some parchment.

Something is drastically wrong.

I don't know much about Haggard but I do know this, that if he is truly a Believer then who are we to sit here and judge him in the manner I am seeing? His congregation judged him and removed him as it should be.

Let's not forget that we are all human and we sin. We fight battles everyday to follow Christ and not follow the world.

From what I have heard in his statements he has been fighting a battle for most of his adult life. He has as it is required bibically from all of us made a confession, asked for forgiveness and now is asking for our help. I say our because we are also apart of the Body of Christ as he is.

As for the that this is a part of main stream Christianity with all the bells and whistle, I would have to disagree.

There are some on fire churches that have the bells and whistles (mine is one of them) that focus on God and Christ. My pastor is well known but he would never take the focus of God and Christ.

Instead of judging the man on a sin he is trying to battle, why not pray for his healing?

 

[Sennaria]

I don't know much about Haggard but I do know this, that if he is truly a Believer then who are we to sit here and judge him in the manner I am seeing? His congregation judged him and removed him as it should be.

Let's not forget that we are all human and we sin. We fight battles everyday to follow Christ and not follow the world.

From what I have heard in his statements he has been fighting a battle for most of his adult life. He has as it is required bibically from all of us made a confession, asked for forgiveness and now is asking for our help. I say our because we are also apart of the Body of Christ as he is.

As for the that this is a part of main stream Christianity with all the bells and whistle, I would have to disagree.

There are some on fire churches that have the bells and whistles (mine is one of them) that focus on God and Christ. My pastor is well known but he would never take the focus of God and Christ.

Instead of judging the man on a sin he is trying to battle, why not pray for his healing?

Ditto!

 

[zealot66]

Judging him..Im not his judge. I think its legitimate to look at people in leadership positions and how they influence things. We criticize politicians who are representatives of their beliefs.

I find it odd that its not OK to discuss the problems of high profile christians who commit blatant sins. Its part of our belief system. Judging him isnt what Im doing. Im stating why I am bothered by it. Just because your a christian doesnt give you a pass on accountability. As a leader of millions of evangelicals he needs accountability. just saying, all the best for him is like saying, no big deal.

Words I say on the interent are just discussions about issues and current events that affect our faith. Forgiveness is part of our faith and he should recieve it from all of us if he's genuine but he betrayed his family most importantly and 10's of thousands whom he represented. jmho.

 

[FOTFcormier]

I am a member of New Life Church and let me say that I am very sad about this whole thing as you can understand. But all men or born into sin. Look what David did he killed someone in order to have his wife. What im saying is I belive no man is without sin and he is getting the best help he can with DR. Dobson I hope and pray he can turn this around.