Why grape juice?

[Abba]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?

 

[BBAS 64]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?

Good Day, Abba

Was not the new covenant based on the "cup of Redemption" used the sader? Explain the phase here " in my Blood.. Would you be so kind as to post the Scripture you are using here.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[@@Paul@@]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?

Without getting into the "ordinance" and who it was actually to,,, I'll just say I can remember with apple juice.

1Co 11:25 KJV
(25) After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.​

 

[Abba]

Luke 22.19-20:

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

Just as the OT lambs were slaughtered as a way of renewing the covenant made with Moses on Mt Sinai, Christ was was slaughtered, but the difference is that he was slaughtered only once. And just as the Israelites ate the passover lamb to consummate the covenant, we Catholics eat the new lamb in the Mass.

 

[Andyman_1970]

As baptist though we tend to hang our hats on "we baptise" the way it was really done in Jesus day.

So why is it ok for us to "deviate" in how it was done in the 1st century (read here Seder meal)? I'm not trying to "stir the pot", but I am curious.

From what I have researched the only "accurate" beverage would be kosher grape juice which I have heard tastes like cough medicine.

Anyway, like I said, I'm not wanting to get into a big hairy knock down drag out, but I am curious.

 

[Lynn73]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?

Baptists aren't the only ones who use grape juice. Our church also does, as does I think many non-Catolic denominations.

 

[bigsierra]

Some Catholics use a certain type grape juice also, in instances of previous alcoholism, to keep from producing a temptation

 

[@@Paul@@]

<Moderator removal of quote from improper post>


Thus the main purpose of communion is not for 'remeberance.'[/QUOTE]

1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.​

I disagree,,, thanks for your input.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Thats interesting. Where did you get this info? Sources please. In the bible it says "wine". What more info do you need?

Are you suggesting that in Jesus' time alcoholic beverages werent yet discovered?

You could start here: http://www.christianforums.com/t724911

You might post the same question over on the MJ board, those folks have a wealth of information on Hebrew practices and customs.

 

[BBAS 64]

Luke 22.19-20:


Just as the OT lambs were slaughtered as a way of renewing the covenant made with Moses on Mt Sinai, Christ was was slaughtered, but the difference is that he was slaughtered only once. And just as the Israelites ate the passover lamb to consummate the covenant, we Catholics eat the new lamb in the Mass.

Good Day, Abba

Thanks for the response.

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you.

We see that this verse is representing the Cup used in the Sader meal and the 8000 yr tradition of the passover meal. I think that Andy has given you good advise here. To better understand the historical implications of this passage go to those who have possed the traditions and history of this event for ever. That may help you to get the fullness of understanding which you seek.

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[jcright]

I've got a stupid question for ya...how do you know it was wine that was in the cup? Where exactly in the text do you see where it says wine was in the cup? I think I'm missing that verse. How do we know it wasn't filled with water?

 

[Cright]

Luke (NIV)17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.

Luke (AMP)17And He took a cup, and when He had given thanks, He said, Take this and divide and distribute it among yourselves;
18For I say to you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine at all until the kingdom of God comes.
19Then He took a loaf [of bread], and when He had given thanks, He broke [it] and gave it to them saying, This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.

Luke (NKJV)17Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves; 18for I say to you,[2] I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
19And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me."

We don't know it's wine in the cup.. we know it's a drink made w/ grapes, we can presume that since wine was used at celebrations it is possible it could be wine. I think that the importance of the act isn't what we are drinking but what it symbolizes and that we remember it. To be as biblical as possible I believe we should use a drink a drink made from the "fruit of the vine" which is grapes (fermented or not).

...all IMHO...

God Bless,
Carina

 

[CrystalBrooke]

i thought our church just used grape juice bc all the baptists down here think that alcohol is wrong. im learning a lot in reading this thread

 

[Crazy Liz]

Hello. I was just wondering why Baptists use grape juice for their communion services. Now I do not want to get into a debate about the Real Prescence, but I do want to know why Baptists feel like they can edit a sign of the covenant like that. Remeber, Jesus said, "This is the new covenant in my blood." Why then do you use grape juice?

i thought our church just used grape juice bc all the baptists down here think that alcohol is wrong. im learning a lot in reading this thread

Actually, I think Crystal has given the real answer to the question. The rest is rationalization and apologia.

Now, WRT "editing as sign of the covenant," try posting the same question in TAW, changing "Baptists" to "Orthodox" and "grape juice" to "leavened bread." :o

The gospels use the phrase "fruit of the vine" and tell us this happened at (according to the synoptic gospels) or just before (according to John) Passover. Without modern methods of preservation, grape juice won't remain unfermented from its harvest season (fall) until Passover (spring). So do we know for sure whether Jesus used raised bread or flat bread (the Greek word used in all the NT accounts is the one that means raised bread) or whether he used wine or vinegar?

In both cases, there are differences of opinion about whether the product made with or without yeast is appropriate, for historical, aesthetic, hygenic and theological reasons. If pressed, you will find that all our churches will acknowledge that, while we each have a preference, communion may be celebrated with wine, grape juice or vinegar, and either raised or flat bread.

 

[eldermike]

I've got a stupid question for ya...how do you know it was wine that was in the cup? Where exactly in the text do you see where it says wine was in the cup? I think I'm missing that verse. How do we know it wasn't filled with water?

I think the one thing that can be understood from John the Baptist, wine is not necessary to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Lu 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

I don't see an association with wine and communion. In fact it's wrong to even use grape juice, as if grape juice is between you and God's presence in your life, that's silly. I would say that if grape juice is somehow important to your walk with God, give that up also.

Being with God is God living in us. To remember the cross is the reason we have communion. One must bring the Holy Spirit to the table, He's not at the table, He's in you.

Mike

 

[Crazy Liz]

I think the one thing that can be understood from John the Baptist, wine is not necessary to be filled with the Holy Spirit. Lu 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

I don't see an association with wine and communion. In fact it's wrong to even use grape juice, as if grape juice is between you and God's presence in your life, that's silly. I would say that if grape juice is somehow important to your walk with God, give that up also.

Being with God is God living in us. To remember the cross is the reason we have communion. One must bring the Holy Spirit to the table, He's not at the table, He's in you.

Mike

Mike, are you sure you're not a Quaker?

 

[Crazy Liz]

You could start here: http://www.christianforums.com/t724911

You might post the same question over on the MJ board, those folks have a wealth of information on Hebrew practices and customs.

I just looked at that thread, and it is about whether one may use grape juice at a Passover seder. It does not mention communion at all.

 

[seebs]

I don't see an association with wine and communion. In fact it's wrong to even use grape juice, as if grape juice is between you and God's presence in your life, that's silly. I would say that if grape juice is somehow important to your walk with God, give that up also.

If you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him!

 

[Andyman_1970]

I just looked at that thread, and it is about whether one may use grape juice at a Passover seder. It does not mention communion at all.

Isnt' the Passover meal what Jesus and the Disciples were doing the Last Supper, where we get our communion from?

 

[Crazy Liz]

Isnt' the Passover meal what Jesus and the Disciples were doing the Last Supper, where we get our communion from?

We actually don't know that for sure. According to John, Jesus was crucified just as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered, so that would mean the Last Supper took place on the night before the Passover began. OTOH, the synoptics indicate it was the night of Passover.

Also, the word used for "bread" everywhere in the NT (the gospels and 1 Corinthians, at least) is the Greek word for ordinary, or raised bread, not the Greek word for flat bread or matzos.

So, for these two reasons, there is some uncertainty as to whether the Last Supper actually was a Passover seder. If you'd like to understand the arguments against it being a Passover seder, I'm sure you could find somebody in TAW who could explain it to you better than I could. This is considered important by some Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholics, while most Christians either assume it was a Passover seder or are content to leave the question unanswered. All I know is it's not 100% certain according to the Bible for these two reasons. I'm one of those who is content to leave the question unanswered, although I kind of like the idea of using raised bread for communion "because Christ has risen."