Why Gabriel? And why the "man" Gabriel, in Daniel 9?

[jeffweedaman]

I am sure that in first century BC forums, it was prohibited to date set the future fulfillment of the 70 weeks, just the same as it is futile now to date set the end of that final year of that 70 weeks.

What
Why date set something that is to last 70 weeks ?
From the going forth of the decree ( very limited options ) there would be 7 AND 62 weeks until Messiah.
In hindsight it is easy to know which decree is meant that led to Jesus being Baptized and ANOINTED to accomplish Redemption in the final week.

 

[Douggg]

You continue to miss the point. The prophecy in Daniel 9:24 lists six things that had to happen during the 70 weeks. Not some time outside of the 70 weeks.

The part I highlight below is detached from the 69 contiguous weeks...

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

...the vision and prophecy, will be sealed up, in the forthcoming 7 year 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

For some reason you still don't even know what I believe as evidenced by the straw man argument you made here. When did I ever say that it doesn't include Jews believing on Jesus? I didn't. I believe the 70th week involves Christ's ministry, His death and resurrection, and the preaching of the gospel to the Jews. Many of the Jews believed in Him and were saved during that time, including 3,000 on the day of Pentecost alone.

In Matthew 23:39, Jesus said of Jerusalem and the Jews....

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

...Jerusalem and the Jews (the vast majority) have yet to say that about Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The part I highlight below is detached from the 69 contiguous weeks...

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

...the vision and prophecy, will be sealed up, in the forthcoming 7 year 70th week.

I, of course, disagree with that. I can't take your argument seriously unless you can explain in a convincing way how the other 5 things were or will be fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In Matthew 23:39, Jesus said of Jerusalem and the Jews....

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

...Jerusalem and the Jews (the vast majority) have yet to say that about Jesus.

The vast majority of Jews will never say that. That isn't a reasonable expectation at all. And that has nothing to do with Daniel 9:24-27, anyway. Daniel 9:24-27 is all about what Jesus Christ did. Until you realize that, you will continue to not understand what that prophecy is all about.

 

[Douggg]

The vast majority of Jews will never say that. That isn't a reasonable expectation at all. And that has nothing to do with Daniel 9:24-27, anyway. Daniel 9:24-27 is all about what Jesus Christ did. Until you realize that, you will continue to not understand what that prophecy is all about.

Yes they will. The Jews, Israel, will turn to Jesus in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10.

Jesus was not mistaken concerning what he said in Matthew 23:39. Jesus returns to the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14, to stand on it, to make a way of escape for the Jews, who will be believers in Jesus at His return.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes they will. The Jews, Israel, will turn to Jesus in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10.

That's a pipe dream. It would be great, but scripture does not teach this. Satan was cast out of heaven long ago, so the context of the timing of Revelation 12 needs to be based on that understanding.

Jesus was not mistaken concerning what he said in Matthew 23:39.

Of course He wasn't. You're just mistaken on what He meant. It's quite a stretch to turn His statement into Him saying that a vast majority of Jews would be saved at some point in the future.

Jesus returns to the Mt. of Olives in Zechariah 14, to stand on it, to make a way of escape for the Jews, who will be believers in Jesus at His return.

Are you saying you think that they will believe in Him when He returns? If so, that is completely false. It will be too late for anyone to repent at that point. He will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers at that time (2 Thess 1:7-10) regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile.

 

[Douggg]

That's a pipe dream. It would be great, but scripture does not teach this. Satan was cast out of heaven long ago, so the context of the timing of Revelation 12 needs to be based on that understanding.

Satan was banned from the third heaven, when he first sinned and lead a rebellion of a third of the angels.

The heaven in Revelation 12:7-9 is talking about the second heaven, the cosmos.

Of course He wasn't. You're just mistaken on what He meant. It's quite a stretch to turn His statement into Him saying that a vast majority of Jews would be saved at some point in the future.

Facts are that Jerusalem and the vast majority Jews living there and around the world
don't believe in Jesus to this very day.

Are you saying you think that they will believe in Him when He returns? If so, that is completely false. It will be too late for anyone to repent at that point. He will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers at that time (2 Thess 1:7-10) regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile.

The Jews en masse will become believers in Jesus at the middle of the 7 years, after their debacle of thinking the prince who shall come is their messiah.

A time, times, haft time later, at the end of the 7 years, Jesus returns to rescue them in Zechariah 14.

_________________________________________________

day 1 of the 7 years - Jews will believe the little horn person is their messiah.

In the middle of the 7 years - Jews turn to Jesus, believing upon Jesus as their messiah...
Satan cast down to earth persecutes them for the time, times, half times period.

day 2520 (last day of) of the 7 years - Jesus returns and rescues the Jews, Zechariah 14.

 

[Timtofly]

What
Why date set something that is to last 70 weeks ?
From the going forth of the decree ( very limited options ) there would be 7 AND 62 weeks until Messiah.
In hindsight it is easy to know which decree is meant that led to Jesus being Baptized and ANOINTED to accomplish Redemption in the final week.

With hindsight one can make up any scenario so it seems. To state which one God actually mentioned, is a whole different ball park.

Look at Preterist, 1900 years later they have the first century "better figured out", than those who actually lived in the first century.

7 and 62 is not contiguous. It is one set of 7 and another set of 62. Even verse 26 says after 62. It does not even say after 69. That people can do the math and claim after 69 weeks is an implication not a specific quote of Scripture.

The 70 weeks are still not over because Messiah was cut off. Until the Prince part the 70th week is on hold. The birth of Christ was after 62 weeks. Much after. Because it would be 62 weeks from Artaxerxis, not 69.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes they will. The Jews, Israel, will turn to Jesus in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10.

In "the middle" is closer. They rejected Jesus during the first 3.5 years. We know the Messiah part has been accomplished. They will soon figure that out, and embrace the Prince part. But no longer even 3.5 years is left. The time keeps getting shorter and shorter.

The best case scenario is that it is really short, the church will be completely glorified. By that, there will be no need for the beast to have 42 months.

 

[Timtofly]

Are you saying you think that they will believe in Him when He returns? If so, that is completely false. It will be too late for anyone to repent at that point. He will be taking vengeance on all unbelievers at that time (2 Thess 1:7-10) regardless of whether they are Jew or Gentile.

It is not about repentance at that point. It is about God changing hearts and minds. God can redeem whom God desires. God literally redeemed the whole of Adam's flesh and blood. The vast majority rejected that redemption. If you allow God to accept that rejection without prejudice, then why the Atonement and the Lamb's book of life?

Your logic comes from an empty Lamb's book of life, and at the end some names will be written down. Even at the GWT names will still be there for all those who spent time in sheol. You may not agree on second chances. But all excuses are removed at the GWT. The vast majority will still be removed at that point.

So many alive today will be in the Lamb's book of life. They are of Israel. They are not the church. They have been redeemed since before creation. They have yet to have the right point of view in their heart and minds.

No one can determine another individuals final state. Only God knows that. Why do some immediately jump to the judgment that God cannot forgive sin based on a person's rejection of that forgiveness? God was the full Atonement knowing full well many would reject that Atonement.

I have even heard in the past that the more people who became saved would make the Cross less of a burden, but is that really the case? All in Adam were equally sinners, so the Atonement was full on the Cross, even though some would accept that Atonement. The Cross was completed before creation, not after many accepted and were made whole. The Atonement still covered even those who were made whole the same as those who were not made whole. So even after the Second Coming God can change hearts and minds as He already made that possible despite each individuals choice.

John Calvin allegedly figured this out, but his followers went out of their way in the opposite direction claiming those covered by the Atonement were already fixed, and no one could ever choose period. God did all the choices. Your point about the total opposite is not true either. You think Matthew 25 and the sheep and goats is based on human choice. It is not. Both the sheep and goats were clueless and never chose one way or the other. This is the moment where all of Israel alive at that point realize who their Messiah is, and sadly many will still be singled out as goats by God's choice. Atonement is not by works, yet Jesus claims works is the metric mentioned. All of them had been redeemed on the Cross. Yet the goats still were awarded eternal damnation because their works could never save them to begin with. You can judge those sheep all you want, but to no avail. God chose them, and changed their hearts and minds. Literally, the only ones who ever existed, who did not choose as Calvinist would point out. Do you think some sheep at that point would dare stand up and ask to be a goat? They just were saved, why would they suddenly loose their mind?

Sure it is easier to just generalize this is just all the saved and lost. But then you base righteousness on works. Also tell me why all the redeemed are dead standing at the GWT. The Atonement proclaimed all in the Lamb's book of life redeemed before creation. Nothing removed any one causing them to be dead at the GWT instead of glorified in Paradise. One cannot generalize the GWT. It is for the dead only. The same for Matthew 25. The sheep and goats are for Israel explicitly. Israel was explicitly called out of the other nations and God's choice. Starting with Abraham and Isaac. Then specifically with Jacob. The church meets the Lord in the air. The church is not brought before the throne set up in Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The Jews en masse will become believers in Jesus at the middle of the 7 years, after their debacle of thinking the prince who shall come is their messiah.

A time, times, haft time later, at the end of the 7 years, Jesus returns to rescue them in Zechariah 14.

_________________________________________________

day 1 of the 7 years - Jews will believe the little horn person is their messiah.

In the middle of the 7 years - Jews turn to Jesus, believing upon Jesus as their messiah...
Satan cast down to earth persecutes them for the time, times, half times period.

day 2520 (last day of) of the 7 years - Jesus returns and rescues the Jews, Zechariah 14.

So, is it your view that God hasn't had any interest in leading most Jews to salvation for the past almost 2,000 years but suddenly will want to lead most of them to salvation when Christ returns? Do you not believe that God has wanted all people, including all Jews, to be saved for the past almost 2,000 years? Why would most of them be saved at His return with most of them not being saved the previous 2,000 years or so? Are these Jews who are alive at Christ's return just the lucky ones who happen to be alive at the right time? Is that how you think salvation works?

Your view doesn't line up with what Paul taught which is that there would be a mass falling away before the return of Christ.