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createdtoworship

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species and ring species are not macroevolution according to most universities. Evolution at above the level of species is macro evolution according to berkley and most non generic sites. Also plants I know can cross meny genus, and thats fine. I am not concerned with common ancestry of plant life. But if thats your only proof than thats fine, it just means that your pinching pennies to find proof. And this proves my point succinctly, that you changing the bars here, and moving on to plant life goes to show that the things we are talking about, namely dog like to whale like transitions, or bird like to dinasaur transitions, or ape like to human like transitions don't exist. And you know this. It's now time for you to own this fact. So we can move on. Thank you for the comment.
 
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Loudmouth

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species and ring species are not macroevolution according to most universities. Evolution at above the level of species is macro evolution according to berkley and most non generic sites.

Just more semantics from gradyll.

The basic question that you continue to ignore is why can't evolution produce two species that share common ancestry but can not interbreed? What is stopping it?

If we split a population of dogs and keep them separate for 10 million years, what is stopping each population from accumulating different mutations through microevolution that result in a lack of fertility between the two populations when they are reunited 10 million years later?
 
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CabVet

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Also plants I know can cross meny genus, and thats fine. I am not concerned with common ancestry of plant life.

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen, evolution is ok as long as it applies only to plant life, because, frankly, who cares about plants?

The only one who is "changing the bars" (or moving the goal posts) is you. You asked for an example of macroevolution, I gave you one. Do you want more? Or if I show you one in flies will you just say that you are not concerned with common ancestry of fly life? What evidence would you accept? A chimp giving birth to a human?
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Your objections read more like simple rejection of the findings based on faith instead of reasonable objections. What can one fossil have in relation to another . . . except similarities?

Genetics is not showing the lines and trees made in the past are coming into qeustion. Genetics is confirming the lines and trees made in the past.

And you continue to sport ear wiggling muscles that our species no longer uses at all. How many species back was it that those vestigial muscles were actually useful, do you suppose?
 
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createdtoworship

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look up changing the bars, its what one does when they are running. and there you have it ladies and gentlman
 
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CabVet

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look up changing the bars, its what one does when they are running. and there you have it ladies and gentlman

Just like saying that you are "not concerned with plant life" when I show you an example of macroevolution in plants, right?
 
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PsychoSarah

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As I repeat, they would need to find evidence of intersexual compatibility beteen genra, which has not happened in the hundreds of years of searching for the missing link.

Um, no, we wouldn't have to have a modern species which humans could breed with which was nonhuman to prove evolution. This makes 0 sense, why on earth would this be the case?
 
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dad

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No, there is not a single historical record of a person seeing an angel. Jesus didn't write a line in the Bible, neither did the apostles, so I am not saying they were liars. In addition, the Bible is not "historical record".
Jesus did write lots of lines. His words were recorded and He made sure of that as He Himself said He would.

To back up your claim no one has seen an angel you have to prove the millions who dis wrong and know every person that lived to see who saw what. You are talking out of your depth.
 
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createdtoworship

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Um, no, we wouldn't have to have a modern species which humans could breed with which was nonhuman to prove evolution. This makes 0 sense, why on earth would this be the case?

define transition, this may answer your question.
thanks for the comment
 
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createdtoworship

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Just like saying that you are "not concerned with plant life" when I show you an example of macroevolution in plants, right?

we were talking about vertebrates, and you bring up plant life? Do plants have backbones? I jest, but..

thats not changing the bars?

secondly, most people do not question the evolution of plant life. Thats a nontopic.
 
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createdtoworship

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Define extinction, thanks for the comment.

the definition of extinction does not answer your question. It's a matter of definitions regarding transition. I define it as macro evolutionary links, like most scientific sites define it. MAinly evolution on a wide scale between two things that are at a higher taxa than species. the closest thing is genus. So I believe evolution between genra is macroevolution. So your transition would thus be between two genra. A monkey -man transition, a whale and dog like transition or a bird and dinasaur tranition, all of those are examples. To disagree is to disagree with sites that define macroevolution that way, U.C. Berkley etc.
 
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createdtoworship

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well the generic sites usually will say "at or above the level of species," but the more technical sites like UC Berkley say "above the level of species".

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VIADefinition.shtml
"Macroevolution generally refers to evolution above the species level"

also indiana university:

http://www.indiana.edu/~ensiweb/pap.macroevolution.pdf

also some institutes of Biological Sciences:

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

national evolution sythesis center:

https://www.nescent.org/media/NABT/

2006 Annual Meeting of the National Association of Biology Teachers -- Albuquerque, NM
This year's theme: "Macroevolution: Evolution above the Species Level"

3rd Annual AIBS, BSCS, NESCent Evolution Science and Education Symposium

3rd Annual AIBS, BSCS, NESCent Evolution Science and Education Symposium

want more?
 
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PsychoSarah

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Yes, and we can provide fossils that look like that. However, you fail to understand that while chimpanzees are the closest living species evolution wise to humans, our last genus split wasn't with them. There used to be other, bipedal apes like humans, which we were genetically even closer to, and likely could have interbred with. They died out thousands of years ago.

In addition, perhaps we can breed with chimpanzees, but I challenge you to find someone who has actually had sex with one. No sex, no chimp-human hybrids for you to see right now alive.
 
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createdtoworship

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well then again you see the problem, no evidence. Eventually you must provide evidence of common ancestry. the way most technical sites define macroevolution, is above the level of species. So you must prove this assertion that one animal turned into another animal (two genra), and provide not assumptions (you said "likely" or "could have"). Now please take as many billions of years as you want and take as many steps as needed. The problem with taking many steps is that you can't prove the ancestry as readily. But you would have to actually observe what you are saying to call it a scientific fact.
 
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createdtoworship

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see my last post, and also this one:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7417298/#post66007155

thanks for the comment.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I don't need to hook up humans and chimpanzees to prove an evolutionary link. However, I can show you a plenty of other animal hybrids if that's all you need to support evolution. Lions and tigers, horses with zebras and donkeys, whales and dolphins, and many more can produce offspring.
 
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createdtoworship

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the only qualifications for macroevolution (per the definition) is to have a hybrid link two genras and also create fertile offspring, as this is what would be required to share common ancestry on a macro level. So please provide your "many more" hybrids. Most of what I have seen is infertile and thus the evolution failed.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Oh, what is this? A small number of female mules are fertile? I guess we learn something new every day.
 
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