Why dont the EO have a concept of mortal/venial sin?

[Dominus Fidelis]

(Thread copied from OBOB by Orthodox request)

Did they lose the concept that was existent from the beginning sometime after 1054 or did it develop in Catholicism after 1054?

Historical references appreciated!

 

[NewToLife]

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Sins.html

This link contains a FAQ discussion on the concept of 'mortal sin', i believe the second section most likely answers your question.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Sins.html

This link contains a FAQ discussion on the concept of 'mortal sin', i believe the second section most likely answers your question.

I read the whole thing but I am still very confused.

 

[Moros]

No. We do not catergorize sin.

 

[Moros]

As a side note, I'm guessing this is why we continually pray the Jesus Prayer rather than seek indulgences. The Jesus Prayer asks for mercy on the sinner, rather than acts as a penance for a specific sin. Just a guess.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

No. We do not catergorize sin.

Ok, assuming that Orthodoxy is true, and the Catholicism added things to the faith, such as the mortal/venial distinction, can you point to when the idea arose in Catholicism and show how it didn't exist before 1054?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

As a side note, I'm guessing this is why we continually pray the Jesus Prayer rather than seek indulgences. The Jesus Prayer asks for mercy on the sinner, rather than acts as a penance for a specific sin. Just a guess.

An indulgence isn't a forgiveness of sins, just to let you know.

 

[NewToLife]

I believe that this difference may actually spring from the emphasis on the judicial model within latin theology and as such probably the concepts as they are currently held originate with blessed Augustine and those most heavily influenced by his work.

On the flip side I do not believe that we orthodox do not recognise that some sins are more serious, or even indeed that some sins represent a greater threat to the christian's progress towards salvation than others. Scripture seems quite clear that some sins are more serious matters than others. However ,for us the concepts of mortal and venial sin do not follow from a reading of those scriptures within the tradition of the church.

In orthodoxy it is primarily the orientation of the heart ( our reaction to the love of God if you will ) that matters and not that a positive balance of grace vs sin be attained, very few of us will complete the process of theosis in this life but that does not mean that if we fall short we are damned.

In the end a man is not so much defined by his past as by his future. Is that not the very essence of christian hope?

 

[Moros]

An indulgence isn't a forgiveness of sins, just to let you know.

I know.

 

[MariaRegina]

In some Orthodox catechisms one finds lists of the "seven deadly sins." While there can be no doubt that these sins are deadly -- here deadly and "mortal" are synonymous, but "mortal" is not used in the same way as in the Roman Catholic "mortal" sin described above -- they are not "worse" in the ultimate sense than sins that are not on the list.

[In the quote from Fr. Harakas' book, the use of the word "mortal" should not be understood in the Roman Catholic definition of "mortal" outlined above. He clearly defines the term as meaning "unto death," or "deadly."]

For example, one would not find listening to rock and roll music on the list of deadly sins. However, a person who spends all of his or her time listening to such music, to the point that he or she ignores others, isolates himself or herself from people and other activities, and becomes controlled by his or her desire to listen to such music to the exclusion of other important aspects of life, can find himself or herself in a deadly and sinful condition. Listening to the music is not the sin; the music itself is not the sin; becoming obsessed with the music -- and ignoring other aspects of one's life or the importance of loving relationships with others -- is what is sinful.

I think that this quote from OCA.org is so very important. It helped me tremendously.

Even Catholics teach that some thing, person or passion can be our "god" so that we fail to worship God because we have created another "god" that pleases us more. This is where the danger lies and why a good confessor is needed. However, even if we do have a good confessor but fail to take time to pray a daily rule of prayer and to examine ourselves, then we can fall into pride and worship another "god" of our own making. This can frustrate any efforts of our confessor to lead us into true repentance.

I think today, that the Internet can be an addictive passion that takes us away from God. Being dissipative leads us away from God (being silly, failing to pray because we're online, avoiding our spouse or children because we are online, slamming others, forgetting our real priorities in life, etc.). . All these are considered sins. Do we apologize for this behavior that leads others away from God?

Forgive me a sinner for I have sinned.

 

[Moros]

The internet led me to Orthodoxy. Works both ways.

 

[Photini]

In orthodoxy it is primarily the orientation of the heart ( our reaction to the love of God if you will ) that matters and not that a positive balance of grace vs sin be attained, very few of us will complete the process of theosis in this life but that does not mean that if we fall short we are damned.

Exactly. There is a focus in Orthodoxy on the heart and the passions that are rooted there. It can be the same passion that drives a person to spout off at their neighbor that also can lead to murder. Either way, that passion must be rooted out.

 

[nicodemus]

On the flip side I do not believe that we orthodox do not recognise that some sins are more serious, or even indeed that some sins represent a greater threat to the christian's progress towards salvation than others.

Exactly.

 

[Cradle]

I suppose a way to see the whole thing is as follows. There are sins as concepts. There are my sins, and there are a third person's sins. Conceptually there are more serious and less serious sins. My sins should always be viewed as serious and I should always feel like in need of the Lord's mercy and in need of confession - otherwise I'll fall in the pride of creating a saint out of myself. A third person's sins should always be viewed as forgivable - so that I forgive him and don't play God by judging my brother. As the typical expression is, condemn the sin, not the sinner.

I agree with

I believe that this difference may actually spring from the emphasis on the judicial model within latin theology.

and I'd also add that the general scholastisicm of western theology might be having its part too. On our behalf we don't like lists, formulas, recipes, facts & figures when it comes to spiritual struggle. St John Chrysostome in the Communion Prayer writes "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first". That's the only spiritual fact that we are called to acknowledge for ourselves.

 

[MariaRegina]

St John Chrysostome in the Communion Prayer writes "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, Who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first". That's the only spiritual fact that we are called to acknowledge for ourselves.

Exactly

It is important to acknowledge that all the good we do can be attributed to the goodness of God and all the evil we do can only be attributed to ourselves, because we are sinners, and then to live a life of continual repentance, arising each time we fall and begging God's forgiveness.

If we persevere in the struggle, the struggle becomes less violent through the mercies of our loving God. We must never give up hope. This is the whole purpose of the Book of Revelation. St. John the Theologian teaches us that we must persevere and continue to run the race until our very last breath.

In the end, we can only compare ourselves with Christ our God. Did we put on Christ? It really doesn't matter what our neighbor does. We are not going to be compared with our neighbor. However, if we scandalize or cause our neighbor to fall into sin, or if we fail to forgive our neighbor, then we are going to be judged severely for those sins. Remember the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I enjoyed the story of the monk who was always late to services. HIs fellow monks judged him as being lazy. When it came time for his earthly departure, they asked him what good he accomplished, He stated that he had never judged his brethren. For this he received the crown of glory.

So the three most important things we can do on this earth:

Repent
Forgive others
Love others (not judge them)

Please forgive me a sinner.
May the Lord forgive you all.

Lovingly yours in Christ our God,
Elizabeth

 

[Michael G]

I believe that this difference may actually spring from the emphasis on the judicial model within latin theology and as such probably the concepts as they are currently held originate with blessed Augustine and those most heavily influenced by his work.

You hit the nail right on the head! The whole mortal sin issue is a matter of the difference in the way the RC and EO view sin. The Catholics view sin in a very legalistic manner and we Orthodox view sin much more as a disorder of the soul which needs to be healed. Therefor to us Orthodox the only sin which is mortal is that which is unrepented. Therefor, if you commit a serious sin but then spend the rest of your life getting your life straight and in tune with God, that is what God focuses on. But at the same time, if you spend your entire life committing "small" sins and don't ever repent and turn your life toward God, then in the end those small sins and the lack of God in your life is what will prevent you from going to Heaven. The Catholics have a very different view of sin than this.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Any unrepentant sin is deadly, then? Is this the Orthodox answer?

 

[Michael G]

Any unrepentant sin is deadly, then? Is this the Orthodox answer?

The idea of sin is missing the mark. Sin is falling short of living in a state of grace with God. If you life is ruled by sin then you have no communion with God. If however you sin and constantly try to get back up and work on towards the goal of communion with God, then sin will not rule your life. The idea of mortal sin says there are some sins which are so bad that they automatically damn you to tell unless repented of. This is a very legalistic view of sin and is contrary to the Orthodox view which is much more organic. If you take a legalistic view of sin confession becomes a grocery list of what you have done wrong. I challenge this is not the best way to go to confession. A good confession will get past the "I miss liturgy on Sunday" to the real heart of the matter, which is why you don't feel like going to liturgy on sunday. Once you get to that point with going to confession then the real healing can take place because then the priest knows which way to lead you in order to get you to want to go to liturgy on sunday. Sin is a disease of the soul and taking a legalistic stand on it doesn't help the spiritual nature of the soul.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

The idea of sin is missing the mark. Sin is falling short of living in a state of grace with God. If you life is ruled by sin then you have no communion with God. If however you sin and constantly try to get back up and work on towards the goal of communion with God, then sin will not rule your life. The idea of mortal sin says there are some sins which are so bad that they automatically damn you to tell unless repented of. This is a very legalistic view of sin and is contrary to the Orthodox view which is much more organic. If you take a legalistic view of sin confession becomes a grocery list of what you have done wrong. I challenge this is not the best way to go to confession. A good confession will get past the "I miss liturgy on Sunday" to the real heart of the matter, which is why you don't feel like going to liturgy on sunday. Once you get to that point with going to confession then the real healing can take place because then the priest knows which way to lead you in order to get you to want to go to liturgy on sunday. Sin is a disease of the soul and taking a legalistic stand on it doesn't help the spiritual nature of the soul.

I don't think you have a realistic understanding of confession in the RCC. I have been to confession like you describe, but others are face-to-face, like a counseling session.

But anyway, that is besides the point.

Is this right then...as long as you are fighting the good fight to not sin, then you are going to Heaven?

 

[Michael G]

I don't think you have a realistic understanding of confession in the RCC. I have been to confession like you describe, but others are face-to-face, like a counseling session.

I spent 26 years as an RC, studied the Catholic faith inside and out, have read Sheen, Chesterton, Keating, Hahn, Kreeft and the Catechism of the Catholic Church inside and out, and spent a year in seminary at St. Vincent in Latrobe. I think I know maybe a little about the Roman Catholic Church. I did not say all RCC do confession that way, but with a legalistic view of sin those kind of confessions happen alot more than not. It takes a good Christian and a good priest to overcome that temptation in confession.

Is this right then...as long as you are fighting the good fight to not sin, then you are going to Heaven?

As for fighting the good fight, holiness is not about a scorecard with God. It is not about "how few sins have I committed today". Holiness is more about "how focused is my life on God" and "how much more focused is it on him today than yesterday." If you don't sin but at the same time don't do anything holy then you are no further along than someone who sins nonstop. Take the account of the young Man who came to Christ who kept all of the laws and when he asked Christ what he needed to do to get to Heaven Jesus said to him "sell all that you have and then come follow me" and the young man walked away sad because he had many posessions. There is more to it than just fighting the good fight, and alot more to it than just keeping the rules of the Church.