You did not address the questions. Paul is talking to Christians, and I am talking about Non-Christians and really people who are not familiar with the Christian cross. The early Christians used the sign of the fish.
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You did not address the questions. Paul is talking to Christians, and I am talking about Non-Christians and really people who are not familiar with the Christian cross. The early Christians used the sign of the fish.If the NT exalted it and boasted of it (Gal 6:14, 1Co 2:2), I would.
I suspect that you‘re looking for a deeper analysis, but maybe Luther’s 95 theses are a start.
There are certainly historians of Christianity on these boards who can do infinitely greater justice than I, but my understanding too is that Luther was far from the first Catholic theologian to push for the final authority of scripture, against Rome’s displeasure.
For the record, I don't care. Either a crucifix or a cross may be used correctly or incorrectly.Many Protestants seem to dislike crucifixes, so they only use crosses. Now, it seems like the more modern Protestants don’t even like crosses in their churches either.
This makes no sense to me. In 1 Corinthians 1:23 Paul was very clear when he wrote, “we preach Christ crucified.”
I’m not say we don’t need to preach Jesus risen, but I think we should do both.
Venerate is a synonym of worship. Those who worshiped idols weren't worshiping the materials the idol image was made of, but rather who the idol image represented.
No, but if the court got down on their knees and prayed to the judge it might at least certainly look that way.So when, e.g., judges are described as "venerable", do you think that means that they are worshipped by the court?
Most people don't know any of that and they go by what they observe rather than the words in either English or Greek used to describe it. And what they observe is people bowing and getting on their knees in front of a statue of Mary to pray to her. Which is just too close to resembling idol worship, for those not indoctrinated into the practice to be comfortable with. All of the many trappings of Crucifixes, Mary, Saints, Relics etc seem like a distraction.No, its not. The Greek words doulia, meaning veneration, and latria, meaning worship, are completely different, and the Seventh Ecumenical Council held in Nicaea in 787 AD in Greek required doulia (veneration) of saints, relics and icons while strictly prohibting latria, or worship of them. And this council, even though the Oriental Orthodox were absent, also clearly reflects their position, I think @dzheremi would agree.
Only to the uniformed who only "go by what they observe". Not comfortable with it? fine. But don't judge those who are.Most people don't know any of that and they go by what they observe rather than the words in either English or Greek used to describe it. And what they observe is people bowing and getting on their knees in front of a statue of Mary to pray to her. Which is just too close to resembling idol worship, for those not indoctrinated into the practice to be comfortable with. All of the many trappings of Crucifixes, Mary, Saints, Relics etc seem like a distraction.
I'm just explaining the Protestant point of view as I regard it.Only to the uniformed who only "go by what they observe". Not comfortable with it? fine. But judge those who are.
Okay. I was just checking because you claimed in the post that I was replying to that "venerate" and "worship" are synonyms. Now it seems like you recognize that they are not, and your objection to veneration is based in what it looks like to you.No, but if the court got down on their knees and prayed to the judge it might at least certainly look that way.
Indeed, and I kiss my icons that way, and my Gospels.Okay. I was just checking because you claimed in the post that I was replying to that "venerate" and "worship" are synonyms. Now it seems like you recognize that they are not, and your objection to veneration is based in what it looks like to you.
Can I just say that it is mighty strange to read posts like this coming from someone who appears to have an Eastern Orthodox icon as their avatar here on CF? Do you know what the Eastern Orthodox do with regard to the veneration of icons? I know our friend @The Liturgist has ably covered the conciliar background of this topic, but there is a lot more to it than just how to understand particular Greek or English words. There is also what people do, which seems to be what you are showing the most concern about.
Psalm 2:12Indeed, and I kiss my icons that way, and my Gospels.
By the way, the Eastern Orthodox procedure when venerating an icon is to kiss our Lord if He is depicted, or otherwise a Gospel (one or the other will be depicted in every icon), thus venerating either the Word or the Word of the Word.
The cross could be a good conversation starter.You did not address the questions. Paul is talking to Christians, and I am talking about Non-Christians and really people who are not familiar with the Christian cross. The early Christians used the sign of the fish.
In Israel it is a good conversation stopper !!!The cross could be a good conversation starter.
That is a good answer, and it is something no other religion has. However, crucifixion is a heavy topic, and you need a strong understanding of atonement with lots of help from the indwelling holy spirit.The cross could be a good conversation starter.
I think it's more like what it looks like to most who aren't into it. This thread is about why Protestants aren't into certain things, and I'm offering my two cents worth as to why.Okay. I was just checking because you claimed in the post that I was replying to that "venerate" and "worship" are synonyms. Now it seems like you recognize that they are not, and your objection to veneration is based in what it looks like to you.
There shouldn't be anything strange about explaining Protestant views in a thread like this. Don't make this about me. I didn't create Protestant viewpoints and attitudes towards Catholicism. I'm just explaining them as I understand them. What something is called, the word used for whatever, is irrelevant. What's relevant is what's actually taking place. How about discussing what's actually going on rather than arguing over semantics?Can I just say that it is mighty strange to read posts like this coming from someone who appears to have an Eastern Orthodox icon as their avatar here on CF? Do you know what the Eastern Orthodox do with regard to the veneration of icons? I know our friend @The Liturgist has ably covered the conciliar background of this topic, but there is a lot more to it than just how to understand particular Greek or English words. There is also what people do, which seems to be what you are showing the most concern about.
We aren't God, so we are unable to know what is in the hearts and minds of the people kneeling before a statue.What's relevant is what's actually taking place. How about discussing what's actually going on rather than arguing over semantics?
Most Protestants would say that's why they are against kneeling and praying before statues and images in the first place. And that scripture has always spoken about such practices in the negative.We aren't God, so we are unable to know what is in the hearts and minds of the people kneeling before a statue.
Okay.I think it's more like what it looks like to most who aren't into it. This thread is about why Protestants aren't into certain things, and I'm offering my two cents worth as to why.
That's not what I wrote. I wrote that it is strange that someone with an Eastern Orthodox icon as their posting icon would write the sorts of things you've written in this thread.There shouldn't be anything strange about explaining Protestant views in a thread like this.
That's why included the video of Eastern Orthodox venerating an icon in my last reply. Because that is what is going on, over and above whatever you or anyone calls it or how it might seem to anyone who doesn't practice it.Don't make this about me. I didn't create Protestant viewpoints and attitudes towards Catholicism. I'm just explaining them as I understand them. What something is called, the word used for whatever, is irrelevant. What's relevant is what's actually taking place. How about discussing what's actually going on rather than arguing over semantics?
The depiction in my avatar has absolutely nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread. Also there's nothing wrong with images of Christ or Mary or the Apostles to Protestants. How the image is treated and regarded is the issue. I don't pray to that icon, I don’t bow to it or kiss it etc. To me it's just an illustration of the Resurrection and the Harrowing of Hell.That's not what I wrote. I wrote that it is strange that someone with an Eastern Orthodox icon as their posting icon would write the sorts of things you've written in this thread.
That's why included the video of Eastern Orthodox venerating an icon in my last reply. Because that is what is going on, over and above whatever you or anyone calls it or how it might seem to anyone who doesn't practice it.
Though I totally disagree that it is unimportant what something is called. "A rose by any other name..." is great poetry, but lousy theology. For examples as to why this is, see the main conflict at Ephesus in 431 regarding Nestorius and the term "Theotokos", or the much later arguments between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics with regard to the filioque clause. Words and the sense in which we use them absolutely do matter. Semantics is actually really important.
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