Why don’t Protestants like the Crucifix, and some the cross

prodromos · Dec 24, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Sounds better, can you post a picture?

Christ is dead on the cross, yet He is standing, not hanging limply because He is victorious over death. He is usually shown without the crown of thorns because that run counter to the message portrayed of victory. He has the "Ο ΩΝ" halo around His head because His divinity is united to His flesh and is never seperated even in death. His expression is peaceful because He willingly gave His life. His palms are open to welcome all humanity in His embrace. While some crucifixes have an acronym of "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" on the sign at the top of the cross (INRI in Latin, ΙΝΒΙ in Greek), most Orthodox crucifixes have an abbreviation of "King of Glory". Orthodox icons are a visual expression of theological truth, hence why they don't necessarily depict the physical reality.

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 24, 2022

Brother-Mike said:
While I don’t disagree with any of your points here

A double negative, very naughty
Just say "I do agree"

Hazelelponi · Dec 24, 2022

Xeno.of.athens said:
A double negative, very naughty
Just say "I do agree"

Or... Have the grace to ignore a double negative - this isn't school and no one is here to learn grammar.

Xeno.of.athens · Dec 24, 2022

Hazelelponi said:
Or... Have the grace to ignore a double negative - this isn't school and no one is here to learn grammar.

Brother-Mike and I have history, much of it involving humour. All of it with grace.

Hazelelponi · Dec 24, 2022

Xeno.of.athens said:
Brother-Mike and I have history, much of it involving humour. All of it with grace.

Good to hear!

bling · Dec 24, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
Many Protestants seem to dislike crucifixes, so they only use crosses. Now, it seems like the more modern Protestants don’t even like crosses in their churches either.

This makes no sense to me. In 1 Corinthians 1:23 Paul was very clear when he wrote, “we preach Christ crucified.”

I’m not say we don’t need to preach Jesus risen, but I think we should do both.

If Christ had been killed by a guillotine, would you hang a guillotine around your neck?
When you meet a person who does not know about the cross, do you want to start the conversation with atonement?

Clare73 · Dec 24, 2022

bling said:
If Christ had been killed by a guillotine, would you hang a guillotine around your neck?
When you meet a person who does not know about the cross, do you want to start the conversation with atonement?

If the NT exalted it and boasted of it (Gal 6:14, 1Co 2:2), I would.

Valletta · Dec 24, 2022

MMXX said:
I've found scores of pictures of people on their knees before a solitary statue of Mary, and It really does give the appearance that she is being worshipped. As for the practice of praying to saints being dropped, that leads to the question of when it was picked up. Protestants are Christians who feel that Christianity took on extrabiblical rituals some centuries down the road, and decided to go back to before all that and adhere more to what scripture clearly dictates. Protistans definitely very much believe in praying for one another. But that's praying to the Father in the name of the Son with the intersession of the Holy Spirit. As is clearly described and defined throughout scripture.

Now you know better. I quoted Saint Augustine as to intercessory prayers in regard to martyrs, Augustine was born in 354 A.D. Sola Scriptura did not take off until a thousand or so years later, the two who really go it going followed an Arab theologian who taught the Quran was the authority.
I address my prayers to different Persons of the Holy Trinity at different times. For example, after I pick up a Bible I ask the Holy Spirit for discernment and more before I start reading. Realize that the Catholic Church was in existence before on word of the New Testament was written.

ozso · Dec 24, 2022

Valletta said:
Now you know better. I quoted Saint Augustine as to intercessory prayers in regard to martyrs, Augustine was born in 354 A.D. Sola Scriptura did not take off until a thousand or so years later, the two who really go it going followed an Arab theologian who taught the Quran was the authority.
I address my prayers to different Persons of the Holy Trinity at different times. For example, after I pick up a Bible I ask the Holy Spirit for discernment and more before I start reading. Realize that the Catholic Church was in existence before on word of the New Testament was written.

I probably don't know better because I didn't really understand the quote. And 354 years is a long time. When the US is 354 years old, it will be the year 2130. The question is, what prompted Catholics to want to start sola scriptura? It's the matter of prayers to those who aren't God, that confuses Protestants. I'd have to know the names of the two and the Arab theologian to be able to reference what you're talking about. I realize a lot of things were added onto the church that weren't there from the beginning. I'm not saying they're all bad things. Just that we both know they don't go back to the first century.

Hazelelponi · Dec 25, 2022

MMXX said:
The question is, what prompted Catholics to want to start sola scriptura?

The 5 Solas are not Catholic beliefs. They came out of the reformation itself - all reformed churches (Lutheran, Presbyterian, various Reformed Baptist denominations and likely more) all hold to the 5 Solas.

I believe the Catholic Church declared anyone holding to these beliefs to be anathema.

The Solas are the basic difference between Protestant and Catholic., Basically, they spell out why we are not Catholic.

ozso · Dec 25, 2022

Hazelelponi said:
The 5 Solas are not Catholic beliefs. They came out of the reformation itself - all reformed churches (Lutheran, Presbyterian, various Reformed Baptist denominations and likely more) all hold to the 5 Solas.

I believe the Catholic Church declared anyone holding to these beliefs to be anathema.

The Solas are the basic difference between Protestant and Catholic., Basically, they spell out why we are not Catholic.

What I meant is the reformation was started by Catholics, like Martin Luther etc. So the question is, what prompted those Catholics to want to start sola scriptura?

Clare73 · Dec 25, 2022

Valletta said:
Now you know better. I quoted Saint Augustine as to intercessory prayers in regard to martyrs, Augustine was born in 354 A.D. Sola Scriptura did not take off until a thousand or so years later, the two who really go it going followed an Arab theologian who taught the Quran was the authority.
I address my prayers to different Persons of the Holy Trinity at different times. For example, after I pick up a Bible I ask the Holy Spirit for discernment and more before I start reading. Realize that the Catholic Church was in existence before on word of the New Testament was written.

It was not in existence before the apostles and disciples, who put to papyrus the content of its faith for transmission to the people of God.

Valletta · Dec 25, 2022

Clare73 said:
It was not in existence before the apostles and disciples, who put to papyrus the content of its faith for transmission to the people of God.

You were there?

Brother-Mike · Dec 25, 2022

MMXX said:
what prompted those Catholics to want to start sola scriptura

I suspect that you‘re looking for a deeper analysis, but maybe Luther’s 95 theses are a start.

There are certainly historians of Christianity on these boards who can do infinitely greater justice than I, but my understanding too is that Luther was far from the first Catholic theologian to push for the final authority of scripture, against Rome’s displeasure.

Clare73 · Dec 25, 2022

Valletta said:
You were there?

Were you?

Carl Emerson · Dec 25, 2022

prodromos said:
View attachment 325593
Christ is dead on the cross, yet He is standing, not hanging limply because He is victorious over death. He is usually shown without the crown of thorns because that run counter to the message portrayed of victory. He has the "Ο ΩΝ" halo around His head because His divinity is united to His flesh and is never seperated even in death. His expression is peaceful because He willingly gave His life. His palms are open to welcome all humanity in His embrace. While some crucifixes have an acronym of "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" on the sign at the top of the cross (INRI in Latin, ΙΝΒΙ in Greek), most Orthodox crucifixes have an abbreviation of "King of Glory". Orthodox icons are a visual expression of theological truth, hence why they don't necessarily depict the physical reality.

Thanks for finding and presenting this - much appreciated.

The Liturgist · Dec 25, 2022

FenderTL5 said:
First and to be clear I'm not disagreeing with you. I do wonder which groups you refer to that do not seem to want to “preach Christ crucified.”

All of the Protestant groups I was associated with (for almost 50 years) preached Penal Substitutionary Atonement, which emphasized Christ's death on the cross to the point of making His Resurrection almost superfluous and unnecessary to the Gospel. It was just an extra hoo-rah.
I've said it often, by contrast I never celebrated the Resurrection until I became Orthodox.
Which makes the thread topic even more puzzling. In those circles, one would think depictions of their view of the Atonement (a crucified Christ) would be more acceptable than a mere cross.
fwiw, I wear an Orthodox Cross around my neck. I have a crucifix as a reminder on the rearview in my car. Our churches depict both.

Indeed. The use of both styles by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox really makes this thread a moot point.

The Liturgist · Dec 25, 2022

PsaltiChrysostom said:
Merry Christmas!

Here is my church's processional cross.
Resurrection side for Sundays and Paschal (Easter season)
View attachment 325567

Crucifixion side (for weekdays and outside of Pascha)
View attachment 325568

Oh that is exquisite. Truly a beautiful piece of liturgical art.

The Liturgist · Dec 25, 2022

Akita Suggagaki said:
I agree that is what it might look like. But appearances are deceiving. These people do not worship concrete. They venerate and pray to who it represents.

Exactly.

The Liturgist · Dec 25, 2022

MMXX said:
Venerate is a synonym of worship. Those who worshiped idols weren't worshiping the materials the idol image was made of, but rather who the idol image represented.

No, its not. The Greek words doulia, meaning veneration, and latria, meaning worship, are completely different, and the Seventh Ecumenical Council held in Nicaea in 787 AD in Greek required doulia (veneration) of saints, relics and icons while strictly prohibting latria, or worship of them. And this council, even though the Oriental Orthodox were absent, also clearly reflects their position, I think @dzheremi would agree.

Why don’t Protestants like the Crucifix, and some the cross

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