Why Doesn't Conversion Change Everybody?

[Bohémien]

. . . *looks at main page of Exploring Christianity subforum* Golly, I hope nobody thinks that I'm trying to spam. I have plenty of questions and I don't want them getting swallowed up by one-another in the same thread, you see.

I suppose this might be a 'can of worms' topic; at the very least, I'm sure that I'll be getting more personal-opinion answers than I will be getting Bible-quote answers! Basically, I'm curious about why conversion to Christianity doesn't change everybody.

I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about - drug-addicted, wannabe-social anarchist, vulgar and generally disgusting person named Alex (nice unisex name) converts to Christianity, and within a month, he's cleaned up his life and become, say, a missionary. Meanwhile, Shannon sleeps around, binge drinks and shoves over little old nanas in the street, converts to Christianity, and there's no change.

Why does this happen? Why do some people radically change into 'perfect' citizens, where the other people don't change? I know that real love, true love, is capable of changing a person - so I would think that logically, love for a God would be infinitely more capable of doing so. Is it a case of not truly believing when they converted, or a case of conversion not having any influence over behaviour, and in this case Alex only changed because somewhere deep down, God or not, he wanted to change?

Such a perplexing topic to an outsider.

 

[Key]

. . . *looks at main page of Exploring Christianity subforum* Golly, I hope nobody thinks that I'm trying to spam. I have plenty of questions and I don't want them getting swallowed up by one-another in the same thread, you see.

I suppose this might be a 'can of worms' topic; at the very least, I'm sure that I'll be getting more personal-opinion answers than I will be getting Bible-quote answers! Basically, I'm curious about why conversion to Christianity doesn't change everybody.

I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about - drug-addicted, wannabe-social anarchist, vulgar and generally disgusting person named Alex (nice unisex name) converts to Christianity, and within a month, he's cleaned up his life and become, say, a missionary. Meanwhile, Shannon sleeps around, binge drinks and shoves over little old nanas in the street, converts to Christianity, and there's no change.

Why does this happen? Why do some people radically change into 'perfect' citizens, where the other people don't change? I know that real love, true love, is capable of changing a person - so I would think that logically, love for a God would be infinitely more capable of doing so. Is it a case of not truly believing when they converted, or a case of conversion not having any influence over behaviour, and in this case Alex only changed because somewhere deep down, God or not, he wanted to change?

Such a perplexing topic to an outsider.

The simple answer is that Alex converted because he felt a need to change his life around and to do so required something greater then himself and gave his life to God and his devotion was rewarded with a better life, a new life, a rebirth to put it mildly.

Where Shannon pretty much just said she was a Christian to placate the nagging of her family, fit in, or just find a social group to belong to.

Hope that helps.

 

[Bohémien]

Thanks, Key. It does help. Would that mean that every convert to Christianity who is a bit of a Shannon - who doesn't change for God, so to speak - is faking it?

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

The Bible says you will know who is a Christian by the fruit they produce. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. To be saved a person must be born again, that is, there is a fundamental change in the way they think and act. Without this change you have to question if the person is saved and is truly a Christian, or just claims to be a Christian.

 

[Key]

Thanks, Key. It does help. Would that mean that every convert to Christianity who is a bit of a Shannon - who doesn't change for God, so to speak - is faking it?

People are changing, which means, while all Christians have issues, that does not mean they are not trying to improve themselves, works in progress is the term I have heard, so it can be tough to judge on the outside looking in.

But if there is no change at all, then there was no conversion at all.

Hope that helps.

God Bless.

 

[salida]

They didn't give their whole heart to begin with-they are known by their fruits. Or they are new struggling christians.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[aiki]

I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about - drug-addicted, wannabe-social anarchist, vulgar and generally disgusting person named Alex (nice unisex name) converts to Christianity, and within a month, he's cleaned up his life and become, say, a missionary. Meanwhile, Shannon sleeps around, binge drinks and shoves over little old nanas in the street, converts to Christianity, and there's no change.

Why does this happen? Why do some people radically change into 'perfect' citizens, where the other people don't change? I know that real love, true love, is capable of changing a person - so I would think that logically, love for a God would be infinitely more capable of doing so. Is it a case of not truly believing when they converted, or a case of conversion not having any influence over behaviour, and in this case Alex only changed because somewhere deep down, God or not, he wanted to change?

1 Samuel 16:7
7 ...For the Lord does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."

There are many reasons why people "convert": emotional extremity, desire for heaven, fear of hell, social pressure, even outright deception. While we might mistake the sincerity or motive of a person's conversion, God is never under any illusions about why we convert. He responds to what is truly in our heart. If what is there is anything other than what He has told us in His Word He will accept, our conversion will inevitably fail because without the correct motive, God will not "quicken us by His Spirit."

You are right on target when you remark on love for God being a powerful motive for conversion. The Bible says that love is the prime basis for our fellowship with our Maker.

Deuteronomy 6:5
5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

Deuteronomy 11:1
1 "Therefore you shall love the Lord your God, and keep His charge, His statutes, His judgments, and His commandments always.

Psalms 31:23
23 Oh, love the Lord, all you His saints! For the Lord preserves the faithful...


Matthew 22:37-38
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and great commandment.

God doesn't demand our love without cause.

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.


How has God loved us first?

1 John 4:9-10
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

John 3:16-17
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Selah.

 

[razeontherock]

. . . *looks at main page of Exploring Christianity subforum* I have plenty of questions and I don't want them getting swallowed up by one-another in the same thread, you see.

Good, thought-provoking questions! Welcome to CF. Hopefully something somebody says sheds some light ..

I'm sure that I'll be getting more personal-opinion answers than I will be getting Bible-quote answers!

Actually as a baby Christian I was afraid to say anything w/o quoting Scripture verbatim. Now I normally paraphrase in my own words - but it's still the same thing.

Why do some people radically change into 'perfect' citizens, where the other people don't change?

I know what you mean, but it's still very important to distinguish between man-made ideas (what I refer to as "religion") and the power of G-d, which we can all access by Faith. The fact is, this is a very personal relationship we each have with the Good Shepherd. Some that have little to no outward change may be changing drastically on the inside, and vice-versa. And we all encounter areas where we're hesitant to follow. Bleeding over to your Mary thread, I think those that venerate her do so because she held nothing back, which is indeed a wonderful example.

But ultimately your question boils down to - we each have to answer to the same Judge! He knows us through and through, no part of Christianity involves pointing fingers at one another, and the foundation is knowing Him which of course includes knowing how He relates to us moment by moment.

 

[joey_downunder]

.
I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about - drug-addicted, wannabe-social anarchist, vulgar and generally disgusting person named Alex (nice unisex name) converts to Christianity, and within a month, he's cleaned up his life and become, say, a missionary. Meanwhile, Shannon sleeps around, binge drinks and shoves over little old nanas in the street, converts to Christianity, and there's no change.

Why does this happen? Why do some people radically change into 'perfect' citizens, where the other people don't change? I know that real love, true love, is capable of changing a person - so I would think that logically, love for a God would be infinitely more capable of doing so. Is it a case of not truly believing when they converted, or a case of conversion not having any influence over behaviour, and in this case Alex only changed because somewhere deep down, God or not, he wanted to change?

Such a perplexing topic to an outsider.

I am going to give you another thing to consider - I think there are 3 types of christians not 2 like you :

1. Genuine "born-again" believers - since they became christian, their lives have totally turned around because of their love for God. They have realised their sins were bad and repented, they have broken off bad relationships - they are putting God first in their lives. They are a wonderful testimony showing God's power in people's lives.

2. "In it for the free trip to Heaven" believers or the "God has a wonderful plan for your life and you will be blessed and get given everything you desire when you commit your life to God" believers. They are abusers of the system.

Someone claim to be a christian but they have only been members of the church because of family (and therefore not really christians). Some may have made a personal commitment to Jesus but they are believers in "Cheap Grace so they think they can sin but get away with it. Anyway overall these fake christians are sinning and don't care enough to change their behaviour and many non-christians assume we're all the same.

3. Struggling christians - these christians can look as fake as the 2nd category but they are trying extremely hard to please God and turn their lives around. Frustratingly that can be very difficult to see by both christians and non-christians.
e.g. Shannon may have miraculously given up drinking and drug-taking, but everyone knows she still sleeps around. She repents for it repeatedly and tries so hard to stop mixing with the wrong people but she keeps backsliding. Shannon was also a victim of sexual abuse from several family members for many years and the only way she has experienced any feelings of love is via sex. Tragically Shannon is so ashamed of her past that she won't tell other christians, who could help her work through her many issues, do prayer/healing minstry for her and help strengthen her enough to break free of that sin pattern and pain resulting from it permanently. (I was well acquainted years ago with several christian women who had that very major issue to overcome).

 

[CFDavid]

I think that's a good answer.

God requires cooperation from believers. It's not as if a switch is thrown and suddenly people are sinless because they've allowed God in their lives. A walk with God is a series of constant opportunities to sin or not to sin, and (hopefully) a training of our selves to make the choice not to sin consciously or unconsciously each time. It continues until we no longer have earthly cognition.

That's one of the things that is so amazing about Jesus. I can't go a day without sinning -- probably not even an hour -- and yet He made a series of choices for thirty-some years, over and over and over to never sin.

You know how athletes train, and they make choices about training hard and eating the right foods and getting the right rest and any number of things to make sure that they are in peak condition? Imagine never having a "cheat meal," never lagging off, always being ready on a moment's notice to perform even when you have every right to go off and rest (I'm thinking of a time when Jesus wanted to be alone and grieve because his beloved cousin had been beheaded) -- and not falling away from training one iota, not once. For thirty-some years, a series of decisions to always choose the better thing, sacrificing yourself, and then being rewarded for it by being tortured and executed in the most humiliating, painful method of the time. That's what Jesus did.

The rest of us will never achieve that, and we have varying degrees of success. God also knows what "handicap" we're playing with, and there's no formula for that, either. A person who had a supportive upbringing may take "God loves me" for granted in such a way that the effect is blunted, whereas a person with a miserable upbringing of abuse may have such a profound spiritual breakthrough with that revelation that the change is seismic. Or the person with the wonderful upbringing might innately grasp the perfect parenthood of God, "get it," and become a major warrior, whereas the person with the horrible past may require years of healing and remain so distrustful that he or she never lets God fully live within. There are no formulas.

It's just like how people of various upbringings might have the same teacher and some thrive and some don't. What one brings to the table matters a lot; God doesn't turn anyone into a robot.

 

[Bohémien]

Ooh, thank you all for your answers. I feel a little silly now, but it's good kind of silly I hadn't considered the idea that new Christians must struggle to change, even if they really want to - and now it seems such an obvious answer. Thanks for all your answers! ♥ I think that I may have to reconsider what I think of some of the Christians I see around and about...

 

[CFDavid]

That's what dialogue is for!

I guess another analogy is three guys all lifting weights, taking the same supplements and getting different results.


Even if they're all lifting the exact same amount of weight, one might be a mesomorph, one an ectomorph, and the other an endomorph.

 

[Sketcher]

Shannon doesn't sound like a true convert. Where there is true conversion there will be at least some evidence of that, and the evidence is a moral change. Saying the right things in church by itself is meaningless, they must reflect what God has done in your heart. If that's not happening, we get people like Shannon, who are lying to everybody, possibly even to themselves.

 

[razeontherock]

True, but you also have people that make a show of outward appearances with no inner change; wolves in sheep's clothing.

 

[silence_dogood]

I suppose this might be a 'can of worms' topic; at the very least, I'm sure that I'll be getting more personal-opinion answers than I will be getting Bible-quote answers! Basically, I'm curious about why conversion to Christianity doesn't change everybody.

I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about - drug-addicted, wannabe-social anarchist, vulgar and generally disgusting person named Alex (nice unisex name) converts to Christianity, and within a month, he's cleaned up his life and become, say, a missionary. Meanwhile, Shannon sleeps around, binge drinks and shoves over little old nanas in the street, converts to Christianity, and there's no change.

Why does this happen? Why do some people radically change into 'perfect' citizens, where the other people don't change? I know that real love, true love, is capable of changing a person - so I would think that logically, love for a God would be infinitely more capable of doing so. Is it a case of not truly believing when they converted, or a case of conversion not having any influence over behaviour, and in this case Alex only changed because somewhere deep down, God or not, he wanted to change?

Such a perplexing topic to an outsider.

Your confusion is based on a false premise. That is that conversion to Christianity encourages somebody to “clean up their lives” by their own actions.

Jesus compared it to cleaning the outside of a cup, as opposed to cleaning the inside of the cup.

You can make the outside look all nice and shiny, but if you don't clean the inside, you're still drinking out of a dirty cup.

The Bible teaches that we are hopelessly and irreparably sinful, that there are no rituals and no good works that can save us or make us righteous. In fact, we're told in the Bible that when we try to achieve righteousness by our own efforts, that it is an affront to God. Christ calls us to be born again and to see our old nature crucified and killed through repentance and faith, and to receive a brand new nature through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

It's only through this that we can ever hope to overcome our sin, to be forgive, reconciled to God and made children of His, and to overcome addictions.