Why does this seem to keep happening here?

JohnC2 · Nov 11, 2018

My issue with cessation is that there is a built-in contradiction inside it.

It is presented with the weight of Revealed Knowledge as if it’s doctrine’s author was a bona-fide prophet and as such - this man’s word carries the weight of Revealed Knowledge.....

Yet it explitictly denies that the prophets past the end of the death of the Apostles and named prophets in the NT exist.... Which specifically means this doctrine’s author was a not prophet forth-telling God’s will and thus it is not Revealed Knowledge - so the doctrine must be man’s work and thus fallible.....

I just can’t get on board..... Doctrines of man are perhaps useful guidelines but we must subordinate them to actual Scripture and Revealed Knowledge.

In my opinion - it’s a better plan to accept all this stuff is (at least theoretically) in place. Work to equip the saints so they can use what God has given them.... Then be on the watch for Wolves in our midst...

Hieronymus · Nov 11, 2018

I have known spiritual ecstasy.
It's awesome.
But it was not of God, i assure you.
I never experienced it as a Christian.
So beware.

lismore · Nov 13, 2018

Hello spiritfilledjm,

To my mind people coming in and asking questions in a good thing, even discussion/debate can be good. They wouldn't come in if they weren't interested one some level, even the most hardened can be transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit. Given time and space for the Lord to work.

Dirk1540 · Nov 13, 2018

spiritfilledjm said:
Also, cessationists gonna cessationate...stealing that...with love of course

Off of who, Taylor Swift?

spiritfilledjm · Nov 13, 2018

Dirk1540 said:
Off of who, Taylor Swift?

Anto9us lol. They said it earlier in the thread

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

spiritfilledjm said:
Without fail, nearly every post I see posted in this sub-forum, again without fail, seems to have someone that doesn't seem believe in the manifested gifts and being active today, posts in a thread here with some sort of snarky remark about the gifts or maybe I'm just taking them as such. So, despite the fact that I'm not an advisor or mod or whatever, I'm going to post the House Rules found in the "Statement of Purpose" found at the top of this sub-forum.

I remember that way back when one couldn't even post in sub-forums where they didn't subscribe to that doctrine or belief system. I'm not sure if some are just scouring new posts without noticing the areas that they are in or what, but it's very annoying and discouraging when I see one ask a question, expecting an answer from folks who subscribe to the same beliefs and then they get met with someone saying, essentially, that they're not for today or stop worshiping the gifts or something.

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against its theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic. This Forum does not recognize promotion of unorthodox theology teaching threads.

It is probably because Charismatic people are more tolerant and reluctant to report those who bend the sub-forum rules. When I debate Holy Spirit issues on the theology sub-forums, I feel free to have very lively discussion, but on this sub-forum, I will report someone who mocks or disparages the Charismatic gifts. But if a sincere person asks reasonable questions, then I am more than happy to discuss the issues with them. I think that there are some Cessationist-minded people who get their jollies trolling those who start threads about tongues, healing on any sub-forum, and they are not intending to ask sincere questions in order to see how they can enhance their experience with Christ, but more to blurt out their trolling "old chestnuts". I don't see these people as genuine converts for Christ, but as being motivated by a religious spirit and self-righteousness, and who don't know that if they got to the gates of heaven, they will find them shut against them if they don't get right with God and change their attitude.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

Anto9us said:
I am going to pass on a story from my past -- in the mid-70's when I was a college student -- I went regularly to a Christian Coffeehouse.

The SIGN OF THE FISH Coffeehouse was a two-story house in a part of town away from everything. I was a REGULAR there; REGULARS got there early, we had a prayer meeting prior to the "official opening" and people would come in - we regulars would witness to them...

We were forbidden by the Director (himself just a college student like us) to discuss Tongues -- we could not discuss the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in any way whatsoever.

Myself, Rick and Bruce agreed on this policy (though charismatics ourselves) - we gave our word that we would not discuss GETTING THE GHOST while on the premises.

But our word was NOT ENOUGH for the Director -- he wanted to convince us of the Cessationist position.

Early one evening, before the prayer meeting that preceded the arrival of the general public, the Director was showing everyone his new LEATHER BIBLE COVER -- it was a grand thing indeed, and everyone was OOOIng and AHHHing over it -- three little belts that fastened it, miniature belt-loops, we all went gaga over his new Bible cover.

So the 'prayer meeting' or 'staff meeting' prior to opening to the public turned into another chance for the Director to preach Cessationism to all of us (after all the OOOing and AHHHing about his new leather Bible cover had died down).

I sat at the table as the Director's eyes bored into mine -- right at me he was preaching and I knew what was coming -- he was gonna RAM IT HOME about "the Perfect" being the completed Bible.

"And what was it that we have now that caused tongues to cease?" and he held his Bible with both hands -- shoved it out at me -- and held it a foot from my face and shouted

"THIS !!"

And Rick immediately quipped:

"What? Your LEATHER BIBLE COVER?"

The meeting was dismissed without prayer, Rick, Bruce and I were in hysterics and somehow made it to a study room upstairs, shut the door and just fell about the place. We laughed until tears rolled down our faces. We knew we had to get serious and go witness to people coming in soon, but we couldn't stop laughing. When we were just about normal, some one would say "leather Bible cover!" or "The Perfect!" and we would go down again and roll some more. I never laughed so hard and so long before or since.

Sounded like that guy needed to get converted to Christ and kick his self-righteousness into the pit where it belonged. I don't have any confidence that I would see that guy's face in heaven, unless he gets right with God and starts seeking Christ to accept him and convert him.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

Hieronymus said:
Just don't let your hunger for miracles override your discernment.
I see that happen a lot though...
Especially in Charismatic and WoF circles.

The Scripture says to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added to you. This means that we hunger for Christ, seek to be involved in the whole kingdom of God, and the miracles happen naturally.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

Boidae said:
As a Catholic (I am not Lutheran as I have gone back to the Catholic church) I would not say that these things have ceased. I have how ever said that I myself do notbspeak/pray in tongues nor do I believe that all can. I myself do not heal, nor do I believe that all can.

The Spirit gives the gifts to whom he will and not everyone gets them.

That is a good excuse for not seeking God to find out whether the Holy Spirit does have supernatural gifts for you to use to bless your brothers and sisters in Christ. Deliberate ignorance can be a heart sin that can keep one out of heaven, so we all have to be very strict in following all of Christ's commands, and to open our hearts and allow the search-light of God to shine in every part to root out any false way.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

Hieronymus said:
There is a great risk in assuming every miracle is from God though.
God and his angels are NOT the only forces out there in the unseen realm that can interact with our reality.
This is the discernment i often see lacking in the typical 'miracle chasing' circles.
They seem to think when it's supernatural it is by definition of God.
And never mind their views on what the Bible teaches. That often seems to fly out the window with it.
These people want empowerment, not humbling before the Lord.
These people want spiritual ecstasy, not repentance and walking with God.
These people want their part of God's Kingdom on Earth NOW.
These people condemn those who plea for discernment and humility.
These people accuse those of blaspheming the Holy Spirit when you try to make them aware of potential deception.

I guess you can tell i've had a few too many debates with some people... Sorry..
Well, i may be too far on the opposite side in this. I don't know.
Thus far, in my life, i have only seen and experienced supernatural things that were NOT of God.
Maybe a few subtle things i could ascribe to God, but nothing undeniable.
And what i've seen from the claims people make about things that God does through His Holy Spirit, through humans, especially with large crowds, i find unconvincing. A lot of scams too.
People being talked into being possessed and then being exorcised on stage...
People laying on the floor making animal noises and having spasms..
Devilish laughter, crowd hypnosis by the preacher, etcetera...
"Experiencing"
Experiencing WHAT exactly??
Well, with all the things wrong in Christianity, i just never joined...
That's probably not good either..
I'm just an internet Christian.

Sorry about the ranting..
Not my best season atm..

The "these people" you are referring to may not be genuinely converted to Christ, and have got just religion. Of course, those who criticize "these people" may not be converted either, but, instead of being filled with the Holy Spirit, are filled with a religious critical spirit.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

spiritfilledjm said:
Believe me, I understand what you're saying. Thankfully I was spared the more...outrageous..."manifestations" however I was in a crowd of miracle chasing Christians for a while. I got accused of blaspheming the holy spirit when I was skeptical of a guy who claims to get slick with oil and gave gold dust appear on him when "in the glory" and when it came to deliverance I was told that because I didnt feel the urge to be delivered from something...then I needed to be delivered from something and the only way was through a multi week course and then a conference and got in trouble (I was in an internship) when I pointed out to the "mentor" that according to the bible all one should need to do is tell the spirit to leave In jesus name and/or pray and fast and have faith. Ugh

Being a "Berean" Christian who searches the Scriptures whether these things are so, is walking the safe path. My view that if it ain't in the New Testament then it ain't true. I see people getting the gift of tongues, instantly healed, raised from the dead, demons cast out of them, angels appearing, miraculously rescue from shipwrecks, receiving prophetic words and visions, so I believe all these are true because they are in the book of Acts. But I don't see slickness with oil or gold dust, or people "in the glory" in Acts. Those things seem like occult stuff to me, and I believe that is what is happening; the influences of New Age and occult is infiltrating the Charismatic churches and deceiving many. Truly converted Christians are very strict about holding to what they see in the New Testament as the truth and rejecting what they don't see there.

You are right to be skeptical of that guy, who I don't believe is really converted to Christ no matter how religious he might appear, and 'the glory' that he is in could be a counterfeit. If the guy is a leader, you would have had the right to rebuke him in public saying that he is involved in stuff that is not in the New Testament and that he should look to making his own calling and election sure in Christ by being genuinely converted.

Hieronymus · Nov 13, 2018

Oscarr said:
The Scripture says to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things will be added to you. This means that we hunger for Christ, seek to be involved in the whole kingdom of God, and the miracles happen naturally.

Yeah, or not.
I doubt the majority of Christians have miracles happen to them.
But that's okay.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

Hieronymus said:
Gold dust and "in the glory" sounds a lot like Joshua Mills (if i recall his name correctly).

I was shocked, when i came to the Faith, by what a mess it is within Christianity, or should i say "Christianity".
No wonder people either turn away or find it all laughable or evil.
But what have i got to show for my faith? Very little...
I'm a lonely brother.

The paranormal stuff all stopped though, when i changed into a believer in God / Jesus.
Not that i was possessed, but i was open to any spirit..
I was one of those new age buddhist types. Meditation and smoking weed..
It made me very arrogant and egocentric too..

Anyway, off topic...
Nice talking to you.
God bless

A good book to dispel any doubts as to what genuine conversion and what it is not. You can download it as a PDF. Joseph Alleine, An Alarm to the Unconverted, first published in 1672, but updated for modern readers. I read every word of that book and it put hairs on my spiritual chest! Inspired by it, I wrote my own book, How Do You Know That You Are Genuinely Converted To Christ? which I have published on Amazon Kindle. But if you PM me, I will send you a copy.

Dirk1540 · Nov 13, 2018

spiritfilledjm said:
Anto9us lol. They said it earlier in the thread

I just skimmed through the thread twice looking for Taylor Swift’s name, I couldn’t find it lol

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

Hieronymus said:
Yeah, or not.
I doubt the majority of Christians have miracles happen to them.
But that's okay.

You are correct. Miracles are 99% unspectacular. We live 90% of our lives according to our daily routine, and once in a while something remarkable happens to make us know that Jesus isn't very far away from us. It is similar to an airline pilot - mostly boredom and routine, and sometimes three minutes of blind panic!

Hieronymus · Nov 13, 2018

Oscarr said:
The "these people" you are referring to may not be genuinely converted to Christ, and have got just religion. Of course, those who criticize "these people" may not be converted either, but, instead of being filled with the Holy Spirit, are filled with a religious critical spirit.

That may be a false dichotomy.
The Spirit of Truth, as God is also called, is necessary to test all things and provide discernment.
The Body of Christ has many parts, and they don't all do the same thing.

But sorry about the "these people". I was on a bit of a rant there...
I have had (too) many discussions with charismatics and WoF's etcetera, and they usually turned ugly, to the point that they decided i was not a Christian.

Hieronymus · Nov 13, 2018

Hieronymus said:
The Body of Christ has many parts, and they don't all do the same thing.

Must admit though that i often feel like an inflamed appendix...

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 13, 2018

Hieronymus said:
That may be a false dichotomy.
The Spirit of Truth, as God is also called, is necessary to test all things and provide discernment.
The Body of Christ has many parts, and they don't all do the same thing.

But sorry about the "these people". I was on a bit of a rant there...
I have had (too) many discussions with charismatics and WoF's etcetera, and they usually turned ugly, to the point that they decided i was not a Christian.

It's just that I have just finished a serious study on what Christian conversion is and it has altered my views quite significantly. I have come to see that it is a total transformation of the person's heart and spirit. This has made me start to believe that conversion and the baptism wit the Spirit are the same thing, because the same transformation take place, and both are a work of the Holy Spirit in us (to lower the blood pressure of some, I am not saying that those who don't speak in tongues are not saved, but that because conversion and baptism with the Holy Spirit are the same, a converted Christian can use any of the gifts of the Spirit).

This has shown me that the way to Christ is very narrow and few are those who find it through genuine conversion. It is quite reasonable to believe that those who are accusing you (remember the devil is the accuser of the brethren) of not being a Christian, need to look to themselves to see if they are genuinely converted to Christ themselves, because truly converted believers don't do things like that!

Hieronymus · Nov 13, 2018

Oscarr said:
Being a "Berean" Christian who searches the Scriptures whether these things are so, is walking the safe path. My view that if it ain't in the New Testament then it ain't true. I see people getting the gift of tongues,

Is that an understandable language or the typical 'glossolalia' ?
I have serious doubts about the Godliness of the gibberish varieties of "tongues".

instantly healed, raised from the dead,

Really?? I mean, God can do anything, but that's quite a stretch for me.
None the less, there are quite a few stories of people pronounced dead who came back and had a Biblically sound account. Ian McCormick is a well known one.

demons cast out of them, angels appearing, miraculously rescue from shipwrecks, receiving prophetic words and visions, so I believe all these are true because they are in the book of Acts.

Wow man, i have never seen anything like that.
I wish i had though. It would very much boost my Faith and motivation.

I really think i'm doing something wrong, you know..
Like being stuck on a threshold...
Maybe even too chicken to try things and pursue Christ, afraid of disappointment and depression, afraid i'm a 'fake' Christian afterall..
Maybe i should open my own topic about this..

But I don't see slickness with oil or gold dust, or people "in the glory" in Acts. Those things seem like occult stuff to me, and I believe that is what is happening; the influences of New Age and occult is infiltrating the Charismatic churches and deceiving many. Truly converted Christians are very strict about holding to what they see in the New Testament as the truth and rejecting what they don't see there.

So i guess i'm perhaps not truly converted..
Although i do have that strictness, i look at these things the same as you do.

You are right to be skeptical of that guy, who I don't believe is really converted to Christ no matter how religious he might appear, and 'the glory' that he is in could be a counterfeit. If the guy is a leader, you would have had the right to rebuke him in public saying that he is involved in stuff that is not in the New Testament and that he should look to making his own calling and election sure in Christ by being genuinely converted.

Hah! He would probably get kicked out for trying to rebuke such a leader.
I agree he should, but i wouldn't have the guts. I would just leave and pray for them later.
Yeah, chicken...

Hieronymus · Nov 13, 2018

Oscarr said:
It's just that I have just finished a serious study on what Christian conversion is and it has altered my views quite significantly. I have come to see that it is a total transformation of the person's heart and spirit. This has made me start to believe that conversion and the baptism wit the Spirit are the same thing, because the same transformation take place, and both are a work of the Holy Spirit in us (to lower the blood pressure of some, I am not saying that those who don't speak in tongues are not saved, but that because conversion and baptism with the Holy Spirit are the same, a converted Christian can use any of the gifts of the Spirit).

This has shown me that the way to Christ is very narrow and few are those who find it through genuine conversion. It is quite reasonable to believe that those who are accusing you (remember the devil is the accuser of the brethren) of not being a Christian, need to look to themselves to see if they are genuinely converted to Christ themselves, because truly converted believers don't do things like that!

Well, i have to watch my steps too.
As i said before, i may be too far on the opposite side, meaning i'm too sceptical about miracles.
Or, maybe it's just that i am not converted / transformed.
I think i'm not, to be honest...
I pray often, even begging God sometimes, to change me, but i suspect it is me who has to take a step, but i'm not sure how or what step.
I think i cling too much to earthly things to avoid depression, for which i've been on medication for years already...
I thought i could stop when i came to believe in Christ, so i stopped taking them.
Didn't work out though...
Disappointing, yes.
So i'm still, after almost 10 years now, stuck on the level of "reasonable faith" but not "converted" or "delivered".
My faith feels a bit dead..
It would be nice to meet you and talk about this, but you're literally on the other side of the planet,
Maybe you can pop me a link to the study you mentioned.
I'll send you a PM if you don't mind.

Why does this seem to keep happening here?

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