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Why does the church allow pluralism?

tall73

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Does Satan have to literally appear before you and tempt you to exchange your soul for the world? I think not. Through cowardice, you can explicitly obey Satan’s will by just following your own natural impulses.


Sorry Eugene, but your issue is not everyone's issue and I was not your pastor. I did not kick you out. I didn't know the first thing about it until after the fact. I was dealing with issues in my area. Take up your issue with the ones who took the action.

It sounds like you were deeply hurt by your church and feel they were wrong on a dangerous issue. And it sounds as though you have not forgiven them for what they did. I sympathize with your situation. But I am not responsible for it. And neither are the others on here who are still part of the Adventist Church. You need to deal with the folks who did it, and forgive them.
 
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Bourbaki

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tall73,

You failed to grasp my answer. You asked, “Why does the church allow pluralism?” I answered by saying, “I think that you should first explain your own tacit approval of very divergent views when you were an Adventist pastor before you call on the whole Adventist church to defend their divergent policies.”

Permit me to clarify that.

True representatives of God say, “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.” 2 Timothy 4:1-2.

Satan’s will, as expressed by you, states the exact opposite. Consider your avoidance of weighty issues on this forum. According to Ellen G. White: “Satan has laid every measure possible that nothing shall come among us as a people to reprove and rebuke us, and exhort us to put away our errors.” That’s the side you are on. That’s where most of the weight of your influence rests.

There are at least a few Seventh-day Adventist forums that provide plenty of opportunities to fulfill the Manifesto of Reform-Minded Seventh-day Adventists. One of my favorites principles of reform says, “While we will endeavor to keep the ‘unity of the Spirit’ in the bonds of peace, we will not with pen or voice cease to protest against bigotry” (1888 pp. 356-357).

You obviously don't believe in reform. You had plenty of opportunities to reprove Maxwellian spiritualists and their sympathizers on this forum. I’m thinking of RC_NewProtestants in particular. Instead, you embrace him with a warm camaraderie.

You are also sadly mistaken to think that the bigotry that controls the Richardson Seventh-day Adventist church is no longer an issue. If their bigotry and apostasy was cited often enough as an example of Adventist popery and spiritualism, then they might see their sin and be urged to repent. But as it is, because you still refuse to abandon your idols and to see your own cowardice and God’s requirement for action on critical issues for the benefit of Christians everywhere, then I rejoice over you being shaken out of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
 
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tall73

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tall73,

You failed to grasp my answer. You asked, “Why does the church allow pluralism?” I answered by saying, “I think that you should first explain your own tacit approval of very divergent views when you were an Adventist pastor before you call on the whole Adventist church to defend their divergent policies.”

Permit me to clarify that.

True representatives of God say, “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.” 2 Timothy 4:1-2.

Satan’s will, as expressed by you, states the exact opposite. Consider your avoidance of weighty issues on this forum. According to Ellen G. White: “Satan has laid every measure possible that nothing shall come among us as a people to reprove and rebuke us, and exhort us to put away our errors.” That’s the side you are on. That’s where most of the weight of your influence rests.

There are at least a few Seventh-day Adventist forums that provide plenty of opportunities to fulfill the Manifesto of Reform-Minded Seventh-day Adventists. One of my favorites principles of reform says, “While we will endeavor to keep the ‘unity of the Spirit’ in the bonds of peace, we will not with pen or voice cease to protest against bigotry” (1888 pp. 356-357).

You obviously don't believe in reform. You had plenty of opportunities to reprove Maxwellian spiritualists and their sympathizers on this forum. I’m thinking of RC_NewProtestants in particular. Instead, you embrace him with a warm camaraderie.

You are also sadly mistaken to think that the bigotry that controls the Richardson Seventh-day Adventist church is no longer an issue. If their bigotry and apostasy was cited often enough as an example of Adventist popery and spiritualism, then they might see their sin and be urged to repent. But as it is, because you still refuse to abandon your idols and to see your own cowardice and God’s requirement for action on critical issues for the benefit of Christians everywhere, then I rejoice over you being shaken out of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

You appear to want the entire Adventist church to champion your issue and your treatment by your church, and if they do not then they are apostate. But your fights with RC on a message board are your own. And apparently they are only your own because he has you on ignore.

One thing that you have pointed out is true. While the church allows many different voices, yours apparently wasn't one of them. In fact, given that they also took off the kid gloves with the conservative groups that put up the papacy billboards, it looks like conservatives are in more danger than liberals. They even let this guy stay in so far, who is an atheist:

http://culturaladventist.blogspot.com/search/label/Bright%20Adventist%20Interview




 
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Bourbaki

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It looks like conservatives are in more danger than liberals.

I think you’re skirting the issues with bogus labels. Instead of the designations often called conservatives and liberals, I prefer to categorize those two groups Biblically as the Pharisees and the Sadducees. It’s obvious that the Sadducees are very unbelieving and that the atheistic class in the Seventh-day Adventist church is just a lighter shade of the very secular Sadducees. In that light, the Sadducees are in greater danger than the Pharisees. The Bible doesn’t mention even one Sadducee that came to believe in Jesus but it does say plainly that many Pharisees were converted to Jesus’ cause. Consequently, your reasoning is flawed. It’s virtually certain that most Sadducees will be lost but there is some hope for Pharisees.

I see no great relevance in the magnitude of unbelief, either yours or that of the Adventist atheist. If you don’t have saving faith, then you’re not going to pass God’s standard in the final judgment (Matthew 25:14-46).

"If you are willing to drift along with the current of evil, and do not cooperate with the heavenly agencies in restraining transgression in your family, and in the church, in order that everlasting righteousness may be brought in, you do not have faith." RH, Nov. 1, 1892.

"If one neglects the duty Christ has enjoined, of trying to restore those who are in error and sin, he becomes a partaker in the sin. For evils that we might have checked, we are just as responsible as if we were guilty of the acts ourselves." DA 441.

The Word of God says: "Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt." Lev. 19:17. NIV.


One thing that you have pointed out is true. While the church allows many different voices, yours apparently wasn't one of them.
Naturally. Since Seventh-day Adventists tolerate Maxwellian spiritualism, it makes perfect sense that my godly doctrines are despised and rejected.

You appear to want the entire Adventist church to champion your issue and your treatment by your church, and if they do not then they are apostate.

The church is apostate for refusing to act on the truth that they profess to respect and being very believing of a lie, which is your problem.
 
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tall73

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You continue to accuse everyone in the Adventist church of being apostate who doesn't care about your trumped up issue you got from a book by a channeled demon.

And though you claim to have new light on the IJ you say we are not worthy of it. That is enough of my time wasted taking you seriously. Enjoy talking to yourself Eugene.
 
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Bourbaki

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Jesus said, “Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.” John 14:11 (New International Version).

My testimonies are also backed by miracles. God has given me indisputable new light that answers the greatest theological riddles in Adventism: Daniel, Revelation (3 scenarios, the 3 angels' messages, 7 churches, 666 and the Investigative Judgment), the human nature of Christ and the nature of the Godhead.

The joke, of course, is that you think that I need some sort of specific authorization from God to oppose the doctrine of demons.
 
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Bourbaki

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You continue to accuse everyone in the Adventist church of being apostate

That’s an absurd accusation. I have never known any member of the Adventist church that I believed was saved and to later note or witness their obvious departure from the faith.

your trumped up issue

That’s an extremely ridiculous lie. Not only has Ministry Magazine published an article critical of Adventist moral influence theory, you yourself have once testified of the supernatural darkness of those who believe in A-m.i.th.

http://everythingimportant.org/SDA/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1155
http://everythingimportant.org/SDA/viewtopic.php?p=3613#p3613

Why the change of heart? I accept Ellen G. White's explanation as truly inspired:

"If those who have had great light have not corresponding faith and obedience, they soon become leavened with the prevailing apostasy; another spirit controls them. While they have been exalted to heaven in point of opportunities and privileges, they are in a worse condition than the most zealous advocates of error." GCDB, Feb. 6, 1893, 170-171.

And though you claim to have new light on the IJ you say we are not worthy of it.

That is correct. I would love to prove my revelation knowledge on the Investigative Judgment but the Spirit constrains me. I apply the following Scripture to you.

Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. Then the word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.'

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!

" 'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

" 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
Ezekiel 14:1-11. (New International Version).
 
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Bourbaki

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Bourbaki

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For Seventh-day Adventists, the answer to the question, “Why does the church allow pluralism?” is discerned by answering the question, “Why does the Seventh-day Adventist church support the spiritualistic philosophy of A. Graham Maxwell

I believe that Ellen G. White has answered this question decisively:

Some who occupy the position of watchmen to warn the people of danger have given up their watch and recline at ease. They are unfaithful sentinels. They remain inactive, while their wily foe enters the fort and works successfully by their side to tear down what God has commanded to be built up. They see that Satan is deceiving the inexperienced and unsuspecting; yet they take it all quietly, as though they had no special interest, as though these things did not concern them. They apprehend no special danger; they see no cause to raise an alarm. To them everything seems to be going well, and they see no necessity of raising the faithful, trumpet notes of warning which they hear borne by the plain testimonies, to show the people their transgressions and the house of Israel their sins. These reproofs and warnings disturb the quiet of these sleepy, ease-loving sentinels, and they are not pleased. They say in heart, if not in words; "This is all uncalled for. It is too severe, too harsh. These men are unnecessarily disturbed and excited, and seem unwilling to give us any rest or quietude. ‘Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them.’ They are not willing that we should have any comfort, peace, or happiness. It is active labor, toil, and unceasing vigilance alone which will satisfy these unreasonable, hard-to-be-suited watchmen. Why don’t they prophesy smooth things, and cry: Peace, peace? Then everything would move on smoothly."

These are the true feelings of many of our people. And Satan exults at his success in controlling the minds of so many who profess to be Christians. He has deceived them, benumbed their sensibilities, and planted his hellish banner right in their midst, and they are so completely deceived that they know not that it is he. —Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 2, p. 440.
The complete answer is the entire Ellen G. White compilation, The Seven Faces of Seventh-day Adventism.
 
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Lebesgue

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And we wonder why SDAs are accused of being legalistic. I agree that dress has become a great stumbling block for many, but I would say that it is inappropriate for a church to deem what is or is not wrong (within reason).

When I was an SDA my SDA church was ALWAYS criticising me about my long hair. Toward the end when I was in complete rebellion mode because I had become convinced I couldn't be saved I grew my hair down to the middle of my back just to cheese them off (I was going to SDA church against my will at that point - my wife was still forcing me to)!

Since I left and have nothing to rebel against, I cut my hair and it is now only shoulder length.

Shalom,

Lebesgue
 
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A

AndrewK788

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When I was an SDA my SDA church was ALWAYS criticising me about my long hair. Toward the end when I was in complete rebellion mode because I had become convinced I couldn't be saved I grew my hair down to the middle of my back just to cheese them off (I was going to SDA church against my will at that point - my wife was still forcing me to)!

Since I left and have nothing to rebel against, I cut my hair and it is now only shoulder length.

Shalom,

Lebesgue
And that's a good example of the church going too far. I don't believe that right and wrong is entirely relative, but long hair is different. That is entirely based upon the traditions of a culture.
 
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