why does the chotki need to be hidden?

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Jun 5, 2017

mhm, I was told by a friend of mine that she couldn't pray it openly.
Perhaps she's wrong, but I couldn't argue her position in her own faith without any proper knowledge of the subject.

I see here that she probably has got it wrong.
Thanks for clarification, to me it didn't make any sense.

--anhelyna-- the reference to the rosary was merely a reference to the practice of praying it together in church etc, hence publicly.

Anhelyna · Jun 5, 2017

Well - at this point I'll admit I've never heard the Jesus Prayer being prayed in Church as a 'group exercise ' in prayer other than in some Monasteries

ArmyMatt · Jun 5, 2017

remember even Christ prayed in public or openly. the difference is He made His prayers all about the Father or those He was gonna help. He never made it a show about Himself.

Constantine the Sinner · Jun 6, 2017

The practice came out of monasteries. Our idea of monasticism is completely different from yours. I've been to a Franciscan monastery, for instance, and you can come and go freely, and people are very talkative and noisy at mealtime--in an Orthodox monastery, you generally have to give them prior notice before visiting, and things are very, very quiet, the monks don't talk and will walk quickly past you to avoid being engaged in conversation. So that, for instance, is why knots and a rope are used instead of beads: they're quiet. The prayer rope is not for jewelry or aesthetics, it is simply a practical device, a pacifier so speak, for those who are not spiritually advanced enough to prayer perpetually; those who are perfect don't need one. They were developed by hermits and recluses, they tied knots to count with. It doesn't have all the associations the Rosary has.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Jun 6, 2017

Constantine the Sinner said:
The practice came out of monasteries. Our idea of monasticism is completely different from yours. I've been to a Franciscan monastery, for instance, and you can come and go freely, and people are very talkative and noisy at mealtime--in an Orthodox monastery, you generally have to give them prior notice before visiting, and things are very, very quiet, the monks don't talk and will walk quickly past you to avoid being engaged in conversation. So that, for instance, is why knots and a rope are used instead of beads: they're quiet. The prayer rope is not for jewelry or aesthetics, it is simply a practical device, a pacifier so speak, for those who are not spiritually advanced enough to prayer perpetually; those who are perfect don't need one. They were developed by hermits and recluses, they tied knots to count with. It doesn't have all the associations the Rosary has.

Interesting.
Franciscans live in communities btw but they aren't cloistered so the comparison is highly inaccurate I'm afraid, perhaps orthodox monks are better compared to trapists.

Also there are probably as many different kinds of rosaries in the world as there are stars in the universe.

Constantine the Sinner · Jun 6, 2017

Stabat Mater said:
Interesting.
Franciscans live in communities btw but they aren't cloistered so the comparison is highly inaccurate I'm afraid, perhaps orthodox monks are better compared to trapists.

Also there are probably as many different kinds of rosaries in the world as there are stars in the universe.

Trappists are closer, but Orthodox monasticism is still much more ascetic.

Yes, rosary diversity, that is a fine example: there are a ton of different sorts of rosaries, whereas prayer ropes are almost completely identical. Prayer ropes are not simply Orthodox rosaries, and should not be understood as such. From what I know, you visualize things with the rosary, whereas with a prayer rope, for instance, you are not supposed to; visualization of the mind can easily lead to idolatry, to cause to think the image you are imaging is Christ or Mary themselves, rather than just an image; if you want an image, you use icons for that, because you won't get confused that way. Prayer ropes are also often used in conjunction with prostration, whereas rosaries are not afaik.

A prayer rope is a training device for getting to perpetual prayer and eventually transcending the lips and imaging the words and getting to the point where it is said by your heart; you wear your tongue to agony by saying the prayer again and again, and try to transfer that agony to the heart. A rosary is not that, a rosary is more like device for what the Orthodox call a "prayer rule".

AMM · Jun 6, 2017

Constantine the Sinner said:
From what I know, you visualize things with the rosary, whereas with a prayer rope, for instance, you are not supposed to; visualization of the mind can easily lead to idolatry, to cause to think the image you are imaging is Christ or Mary themselves, rather than just an image; if you want an image, you use icons for that, because you won't get confused that way. Prayer ropes are also often used in conjunction with prostration, whereas rosaries are not afaik.

Interesting! I knew you weren't supposed to visualize with a prayer rope but I never knew why. Is it generally acceptable to meditate on a passage of scripture (a specific commandment, for instance) as one uses a prayer rope, or would that be frowned upon as potentially idolatrous as well?

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Jun 7, 2017

Constantine the Sinner said:
Trappists are closer, but Orthodox monasticism is still much more ascetically.

Yes, rosary diversity, that is a fine example: there are a ton of different sorts of rosaries, whereas prayer ropes are almost completely identical. Prayer ropes are not simply Orthodox rosaries, and should not be understood as such. From what I know, you visualize things with the rosary, whereas with a prayer rope, for instance, you are not supposed to; visualization of the mind can easily lead to idolatry, to cause to think the image you are imaging is Christ or Mary themselves, rather than just an image; if you want an image, you use icons for that, because you won't get confused that way. Prayer ropes are also often used in conjunction with prostration, whereas rosaries are not afaik.

A prayer rope is a training device for getting to perpetual prayer and eventually transcending the lips and imaging the words and getting to the point where it is said by your heart; you wear your tongue to agony by saying the prayer again and again, and try to transfer that agony to the heart. A rosary is not that, a rosary is more like device for what the Orthodox call a "prayer rule".

I know about the differences between the two and I'm able to consider both enriching to ones prayerlife each in its own way.

Trapists are quite the ascets so I don't know where you got the information that they're any less so than orthodox monks, but that's your opinion.

The argument of falling into idolatry by creating mental pictures is weird, I honestly cannot understand that argument and especially from an orthodox pow.
Veneration of icons is far closer to any such practice than meditation can ever be or our veneration of statues for example.

Well, we agree however that the chotki is a excellent tool for helping us concentrate more on Christ in our lives which its great.

ArmyMatt · Jun 7, 2017

you fight mental pictures when praying because God is not conceptual, so anything you conceive while praying is false, and therefore an idol. prayer tries to commune with He Who is beyond being.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Jun 7, 2017

ArmyMatt said:
you fight mental pictures when praying because God is not conceptual, so anything you conceive while praying is false, and therefore an idol. prayer tries to commune with He Who is beyond being.

Mhm, it's a strange and a foreign thought to me. I hope you all understand that I really find this thought pattern puzzling and that I'm questioning it respectfully.

ArmyMatt · Jun 7, 2017

Stabat Mater said:
Mhm, it's a strange and a foreign thought to me. I hope you all understand that I really find this thought pattern puzzling and that I'm questioning it respectfully.

no worries, it was for me as well. but this is the theology of the early Church. Justin Martyr's dialogue with Trypho the Jew when he speaks of his conversion to Christianity makes it pretty clear.

Constantine the Sinner · Jun 7, 2017

Lutheran Monk said:
Interesting! I knew you weren't supposed to visualize with a prayer rope but I never knew why. Is it generally acceptable to meditate on a passage of scripture (a specific commandment, for instance) as one uses a prayer rope, or would that be frowned upon as potentially idolatrous as well?

No, meditating on a passage isn't idolatrous as all (Psalms 1:2), although a prayer rope is really intended for counting.

Constantine the Sinner · Jun 7, 2017

Stabat Mater said:
I know about the differences between the two and I'm able to consider both enriching to ones prayerlife each in its own way.

Trapists are quite the ascets so I don't know where you got the information that they're any less so than orthodox monks, but that's your opinion.

Looking at pictures of how they live.

Many Orthodox monks don't have electricity, and their cells aren't so contemporary. I don't know what Trappists follow as far as fasting though, so I can't comment on that.

Veneration of icons is far closer to any such practice than meditation can ever be or our veneration of statues for example.

Not really. Idolatry is taking an image for God; that can happen with mental pictures, but not with icons. With icons, even a little child can tell the difference: if you point at it and say, "That's Jesus," he will know that's a picture of Jesus, not actually Jesus. He might, however, get the wrong idea with a statue. But with mental images, even adults can get confused and fall into delusion, thinking they are actually beholding Christ when in fact it's just a mental image.

Constantine the Sinner · Jun 7, 2017

Stabat Mater said:
Mhm, it's a strange and a foreign thought to me. I hope you all understand that I really find this thought pattern puzzling and that I'm questioning it respectfully.

There are countless stories in Orthodoxy about monks being tricked by demons impersonating angels, saints and even God himself, and they always do it through imagery.

Using mental images for prayer is completely foreign to the teaching of Christ and the Apostles. The only reason material icons are dogmatic in the Orthodox Church, is because Christ's incarnation means the material can be holy, and iconoclasm is a fundamental denial of that, which is Christological heresy.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Jun 7, 2017

Constantine the Sinner said:
There are countless stories in Orthodoxy about monks being tricked by demons impersonating angels, saints and even God himself, and they always do it through imagery.

Using mental images for prayer is completely foreign to the teaching of Christ and the Apostles. The only reason material icons are dogmatic in the Orthodox Church, is because Christ's incarnation means the material can be holy, and iconoclasm is a fundamental denial of that, which is Christological heresy.

But surely all intellectual activity is build on mental pictures of some sort?
Our perception of God Father in heaven is very very often it not always built on or around the picture of our own earthly dad.

A distant and demanding dad equals a image of a equally demanding and harsh God.

Pictures is a fundamental part of any human intellectual activity and so as far as I can see contemplative prayer only make use of that very basic part of our mind.

How can we even imagine God, Christ and the Holy Spirit if it wasn't for our mind painting him before our eyes?

Constantine the Sinner · Jun 7, 2017

Stabat Mater said:
But surely all intellectual activity is build on mental pictures of some sort?
Our perception of God Father in heaven is very very often it not always built on or around the picture of our own earthly dad.

A distant and demanding dad equals a image of a equally demanding and harsh God.

Pictures is a fundamental part of any human intellectual activity and so as far as I can see contemplative prayer only make use of that very basic part of our mind.

How can we even imagine God, Christ and the Holy Spirit if it wasn't for our mind painting him before our eyes?

You're not supposed to imagine them.

Stabat Mater dolorosa · Jun 7, 2017

Constantine the Sinner said:
You're not supposed to imagine them.

The human mind does.

Constantine the Sinner · Jun 7, 2017

Stabat Mater said:
The human mind does.

The human mind does a lot of things during prayer, doesn't mean you should indulge it. The idea is to experience God, not to image him--at least for us. Perhaps that is why Scholasticism never interested us.

Bessie · Jun 7, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
I've never actually heard it had to be hidden. (That doesn't mean it might not be advised, just I've never heard it.)

BUT ... sometimes I use a 33-knot continuous rope during service, but it wraps across my palm and is mostly hidden, and I generally cover that had with my other one if it's visible. And when I use a 100-knot, which can't be hidden, I keep it under a shawl. So ... that thinking is just there.

One thing I have heard, a layperson is not to wear a long prayer rope tucked in the belt as a monk does. Because that would be prideful.

I don't think the concern is quite so much directed against being seen praying in a completely secular setting, particularly one actually hostile to the faith. But doing so in Church or to be seen by other Christians would be the biggest problem, I would think.

Yeah, I'm honestly not sure if this is right, but I tend to wear a small knot size 33 knot one on my wrist 99% of the time, both you keep it readily available for prayer and to remind myself to pray... but especially in secular society I don't think anyone will know what it is. However, in church, I'm likely to remove it because other Orthodox Christians know what it is and I don't want to show it off. Plus I rarely need a reminder to pray at church itself. Sometimes I forget to remove it and I don't think it's a huge deal, but I do make an effort.

ArmyMatt · Jun 7, 2017

when images come, we are to let them go. not to focus on them or indulge them.

why does the chotki need to be hidden?

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