Why does the bible divide?

[ProdicalChristian]

I do believe very much in being a responsible Christian, however that responsibility is defined for the Christian who is lead by the Holy Spirit. Extremists OFTEN will ignore the most necessary that God desires and break God's spiritual harmony. If you look back that Jesus rebuked religious leaders who had extreme doctrines that intimindated others who don't follow their rules. Liberals OFTEN are called the "enabler". Enabler means one that enables another to achieve an end by providing excuses or by helping that individual avoid the consequences of such behavior.

I can see why there are "divisions" within Christianity. Martin Luther began this even though it was NOT his intent when he posted 95 Theses. He was trying to "reform" the RCC by reforming from biblical sense rather than Church leaders dictating.

 

[Peaceful Dove]

And yet I am still baffled as to why people see the 30,000+ completely different Christian groups as a good thing.

We are living in a time when folks see bad as good and good as bad.

Just look around you.
Some of the bad things looked upon as good.
Abortion
Divorce and remarriage
Sex outside of marriage
etc., etc., etc.

And Good things seen as bad
Prayer in public
Christianity
Discipline in school
Patriotism
Free Speech
etc., etc., etc.

Division in the Body of Christ is not a good thing.

Jesus said, "Father, let them be one so that the world will know that you sent me".

 

[Carey]

And yet I am still baffled as to why people see the 30,000+ completely different Christian groups as a good thing.

How many ( parts ) or ( groups ) does your body have.
Is you lung your leg your liver divided??
Do these ( Body ) parts serve different tasks for the (body ) to work ??

If the body of Christ has only 30,000 parts to appeal to billions of diffrent viewpoibts to draw the ones with those viewpoints to the truth that Christ died for all sin and will return to live here on earth with us for 1000 years. I think 30,000 is a small number of body parts considering.

 

[E.C.]

We are living in a time when folks see bad as good and good as bad.

Just look around you.
Some of the bad things looked upon as good.
Abortion
Divorce and remarriage
Sex outside of marriage
etc., etc., etc.

And Good things seen as bad
Prayer in public
Christianity
Discipline in school
Patriotism
Free Speech
etc., etc., etc.

Division in the Body of Christ is not a good thing.

Jesus said, "Father, let them be one so that the world will know that you sent me".

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Peaceful Dove again.



Carey, I see what you are saying, but the comparisons your using I see differently.

From what I understand, your saying that the lungs could be Anglicanism, stomach could be Calvinism, etc; basically this body part could be this bit of Christianity all of which worship the same God.

However, the way I'm seeing this is that the lungs, stomach, arms and legs are fighting over each other to say who is best thus resulting in the overall body (of which they are a part of) looking all skewed, disfigured and unrecognizable because none of the two agree 100% on anything. And to make things worse, not only can no two parts agree on anything, but the differences between two are at opposite ends of the spectrum (extreme vs. extreme).

 

[ProdicalChristian]

We are living in a time when folks see bad as good and good as bad.

Just look around you.
Some of the bad things looked upon as good.
Abortion
Divorce and remarriage
Sex outside of marriage
etc., etc., etc.

And Good things seen as bad
Prayer in public
Christianity
Discipline in school
Patriotism
Free Speech
etc., etc., etc.

Division in the Body of Christ is not a good thing.

Jesus said, "Father, let them be one so that the world will know that you sent me".

Many people forget and often try to do their own ways circumstances happens that they never stop and think. God does everything--He governs everything. Faith is accepting God's Will. There is confusion between the determined Will of God and a Christian's responsibility as a Christian. In Isaiah 55:8-9 God says, "My thoughts are completely different from yours, and my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."

Christians in "spirit" can work together even when they differ on doctrinal issues however, their flesh do not allow them to work together. I do mind when Christians are seperating other Christians by doctrines which causes division. God in spirit always unites and the devil through the flesh always divides. Church divisions have been going on since the New Testament days As Paul wrote in1 Corinthians 12-13 "One of you says, 'I follow Paul'; another, 'I follow Apollos'; another, 'I follow Cephas'; still another, 'I follow Christ.' Is Christ divided?"

As this world gets older, more divided we will be. The very first "clear" division biblically is the Tower of Babel. Tower of Babel that scattered everyone who were speaking different languages. In the New Testament, there were many verses that talked about Christians being scattered all over the world. Why? Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations." Nation from the greek word "Ethnos".

 

[ProdicalChristian]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Peaceful Dove again.



Carey, I see what you are saying, but the comparisons your using I see differently.

From what I understand, your saying that the lungs could be Anglicanism, stomach could be Calvinism, etc; basically this body part could be this bit of Christianity all of which worship the same God.

However, the way I'm seeing this is that the lungs, stomach, arms and legs are fighting over each other to say who is best thus resulting in the overall body (of which they are a part of) looking all skewed, disfigured and unrecognizable because none of the two agree 100% on anything. And to make things worse, not only can no two parts agree on anything, but the differences between two are at opposite ends of the spectrum (extreme vs. extreme).

I have learned so much about doctrines since I was a teen. To this day, I never met a Christian who agrees with my beliefs 100% and I also have not met a Christian who I agree with their beliefs 100%.

 

[E.C.]

I have learned so much about doctrines since I was a teen. To this day, I never met a Christian who agrees with my beliefs 100% and I also have not met a Christian who I agree with their beliefs 100%.

Its not so much the agree/don't agree that bugs me. What bugs me is that you are either this extreme or that extreme. Nothing in the middle.

This saddens me because people here on either extreme: debate. Thus no middle ground can be found to see if the two have anything in common other than that they both put their socks on the same way.

I've found that being somewhere in the middle of extremes allows one to learn why the two extremes think the way they do. Thus allowing growth and learning. Being on either end does not usually allow growth and learning of others.

 

[ProdicalChristian]

Its not so much the agree/don't agree that bugs me. What bugs me is that you are either this extreme or that extreme. Nothing in the middle.

This saddens me because people here on either extreme: debate. Thus no middle ground can be found to see if the two have anything in common other than that they both put their socks on the same way.

I've found that being somewhere in the middle of extremes allows one to learn why the two extremes think the way they do. Thus allowing growth and learning. Being on either end does not usually allow growth and learning of others.

Both liberals and extremists often will ignore the most necessary that God desires and break God's spiritual harmony. Christian faith is not to manipulate and intimidate people with doctrines but rather allow the Holy Spirit (not the Church) to do the work in convicting people's hearts. We are not to persuade people to follow certain extremist views of doctrines (that each of us hold) because only God can take care of that based on each individual as the Holy Spirit convicts their hearts.

 

[E.C.]

Both liberals and extremists often will ignore the most necessary that God desires and break God's spiritual harmony. Christian faith is not to manipulate and intimidate people with doctrines but rather allow the Holy Spirit (not the Church) to do the work in convicting people's hearts. We are not to persuade people to follow certain extremist views of doctrines (that each of us hold) because only God can take care of that based on each individual as the Holy Spirit convicts their hearts.

I'm aware of this, I was merely speaking of places like GT where a lot of debate happens over small things.

 

[ProdicalChristian]

I'm aware of this, I was merely speaking of places like GT where a lot of debate happens over small things.

Small such as "communion". I reject closed communion because this is between God and the Believer. I do not like Church's dictating whether a person is allowed to have a communion or not. We can debate this for years to come and no solutions.

 

[jckstraw72]

its Sola Scriptura that divides.

 

[E.C.]

its Sola Scriptura that divides.

That divides people.

 

[ProdicalChristian]

its Sola Scriptura that divides.

We protestants believe that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church (or should i say Orthodox Church) obsure the teachings of the Bible by convolution with Church history and man's doctrines. Scripture alone with the Holy Spirit (and with the help from trusted Bible teachers). Sola Scriptura was established in principle that no tradition will be used down by word of mouth, no rabbinical opinion, and no other innovation was to be accorded authority equal to the Word of God (The Bible).

 

[Trento]

We protestants believe that the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church (or should i say Orthodox Church) obsure the teachings of the Bible by convolution with Church history and man's doctrines. Scripture alone with the Holy Spirit (and with the help from trusted Bible teachers). Sola Scriptura was established in principle that no tradition will be used down by word of mouth, no rabbinical opinion, and no other innovation was to be accorded authority equal to the Word of God (The Bible).

Show us where the Bible says, other than God, where the Bible is the only divine authority by which you can know divine truth. If you can’t find it, then you are preaching a false gospel – a gospel which claims that only the Bible is your only divine authority.

2 Thess 2:15 says that the Apostolic teaching came both in "word of mouth" and "in letter," and that we are obliged to hold to both.
Thus we have two sources, not one, and that dictum is by the decree of Scripture. So if one is really paying attention to Scripture, then he must acknowledge that Scripture never claims to be the sole source or authority for what one is to believe.
There are other such passages showing us that Apostolic teaching was more than what was written in the Bible (1 Cor 11:34; Eph 3:3; 2 John 2:12; 2 Tim 2:2).

Ha yes the Holy Spirit the unifier.

The author of solas had something revealing to say about that subject.

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”​

Martin Luther

The Facts about Luther, 356​

 

[sunlover1]

its Sola Scriptura that divides.

That divides people.

Not rightly Dividing...

The Word of Truth

Doesn't that seem more likely?

 

[ProdicalChristian]

Show us where the Bible says, other than God, where the Bible is the only divine authority by which you can know divine truth. If you can’t find it, then you are preaching a false gospel – a gospel which claims that only the Bible is your only divine authority.

2 Thess 2:15 says that the Apostolic teaching came both in "word of mouth" and "in letter," and that we are obliged to hold to both.
Thus we have two sources, not one, and that dictum is by the decree of Scripture. So if one is really paying attention to Scripture, then he must acknowledge that Scripture never claims to be the sole source or authority for what one is to believe.
There are other such passages showing us that Apostolic teaching was more than what was written in the Bible (1 Cor 11:34; Eph 3:3; 2 John 2:12; 2 Tim 2:2).

Ha yes the Holy Spirit the unifier.

The author of solas had something revealing to say about that subject.

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”​

Martin Luther

The Facts about Luther, 356​

The Holy Spirit was leading Martin Luther to a direction where God wanted to go. Of course, Church didn't want that. Biblical discernment may be simply defined as the ability to biblically decide between right and wrong, between truth and error, between good and evil. Discernment basically means to clearly distinguish truth from error by judging whether the behavior or teaching is from God, Satan, human error, or human power. As a Christian, we don't need intelligence to decide because we have the Holy Spirit that convicts us to listen rather than focusing on our own pride of reasonings. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Can I trust leaders with Tradition doctrines blindly? NO. Every Christians who are spiritually well educated know where they stand on such matters as the inspiration of the Scriptures, the deity of Jesus Christ, salvation through the blood of atonement, death and judgment, heaven and hell. The true battle line is elsewhere outside Jesus Christ, the Church and the Bible. The Bible is Book of Life. Spiritual truth is spiritually discerned. Spiritual wisdom begins by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not from the Church. The Holy Spirit is directly from God. Tradition are important but to me , they are not as important as the Word of God. If Tradition is supported by the Bible, I will follow them. If portion of Tradition is not supported by the Bible, I will study further and discern the difference.

 

[Trento]

The Holy Spirit was leading Martin Luther to a direction where God wanted to go. Of course, Church didn't want that. Biblical discernment may be simply defined as the ability to biblically decide between right and wrong, between truth and error, between good and evil. Discernment basically means to clearly distinguish truth from error by judging whether the behavior or teaching is from God, Satan, human error, or human power. As a Christian, we don't need intelligence to decide because we have the Holy Spirit that convicts us to listen rather than focusing on our own pride of reasonings. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Jesus said in John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Can I trust leaders with Tradition doctrines blindly? NO. Every Christians who are spiritually well educated know where they stand on such matters as the inspiration of the Scriptures, the deity of Jesus Christ, salvation through the blood of atonement, death and judgment, heaven and hell. The true battle line is elsewhere outside Jesus Christ, the Church and the Bible. The Bible is Book of Life. Spiritual truth is spiritually discerned. Spiritual wisdom begins by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not from the Church. The Holy Spirit is directly from God. Tradition are important but to me , they are not as important as the Word of God. If Tradition is supported by the Bible, I will follow them. If portion of Tradition is not supported by the Bible, I will study further and discern the difference.

The idea that Tradition as you represent as totally dependent upon Scripture is false. Very few of the apostles actually wrote a thing. There is no record of one apostle saying, “Well, before I die, go to the apostle Paul’s writings and the gospels, and read it as your only infallible guide, although Church and Tradition will help.” To your denial that Tradition was in any way independent of Scripture, is the establishment of many apostolic Churches which were not in any way dependent on the New Testament writings. Since most of the apostles wrote nary a sentence of Scripture, it is absolutely amazing that you say Tradition was dependent upon Scripture, when there was not a NT canon for about 3 1/2 centuries. The tradition that established those Churches was dependent upon the successors of the Apostles having binding authority on the followers in Christ. For example, how was the apostolic community founded by Thomas the apostle in India dependent upon Scripture, when they did not have NT Scriptures? However, when discovered in the 1500s or so, these Indian believers had all the beliefs that the Roman Church. They somehow even believed the outrageous things like the Assumption of Mary. Their tradition, through the Apostle Thomas even though cut off from the other Churches, even submitted to Rome, because this tradition even passed on its authority. This tradition had the same belief system in the Eucharistic Sacrifice, Mary, etc.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Show us where the Bible says, other than God, where the Bible is the only divine authority by which you can know divine truth.

The scriptures are GOD inspired and it also says the inspiration of God gives understanding. The same understanding the Spirit of God in Christ gives us in Him so that He might teach us (in Whom we are instructed to abide).

1John 2:27 But the annointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT ~ANY MAN~ TEACH YOU: but as the same annointing ~teacheth you~ of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall ABIDE ~IN HIM~.


Jerm 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth IN MAN, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose~heart~ departeth from ~the LORD~.

If you can’t find it, then you are preaching a false gospel – a gospel which claims that only the Bible is your only divine authority.

The words of His mouth command this...

Isaiah 34:16 SEEK YE ~OUT OF~ THE BOOK OF THE LORD, AND READ: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for MY MOUTH it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

We are also told...

Prov 5:7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and ~depart not~ FROM ~the words~ of MY MOUTH.


The scriptures are Gods words,


Prov 30:6 ADD THOU ~NOT~ unto HIS WORDS, lest he reprove ~thee~, and ~THOU~ be found A LIAR.


Scripture is given for reproof


Prov 1:23 ~turn you~ at my reproof: behold, ((( I will pour out my spirit unto you))), I will make known ~my words~ to you.

So He promises in turning at His reproof He will make His words known to us.

2Titus 3:16 All scripture is given by ~inspiration of God~, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for ~instruction~ in righteousness~


Jerm 35:13... Will ye not receive ~instruction~ to hearken to MY WORDS? saith the LORD.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let GOD be TRUE, but ~every man~ a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be ~justified~ in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”​

Martin Luther

The Facts about Luther, 356​

If you quote men and believe this, then know your not beyond the words he speaks Nevertheless are we called to trust and abide in Him.

Trento, I never see much trust in you regarding the scriptures or the Spirit. You always appear to be turning others away from trusting in Gods words and forever trying to knock down others confidence in trusting in Him. I never see you building up anyones confidence in God.

Fireinfolding

 

[Trento]

The scriptures are GOD inspired and it also says the inspiration of God gives understanding. The same understanding the Spirit of God in Christ gives us in Him so that He might teach us (in Whom we are instructed to abide).

1John 2:27 But the annointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and YE NEED NOT ~ANY MAN~ TEACH YOU: but as the same annointing ~teacheth you~ of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall ABIDE ~IN HIM~.


Jerm 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth IN MAN, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose~heart~ departeth from ~the LORD~.






The words of His mouth command this...

Isaiah 34:16 SEEK YE ~OUT OF~ THE BOOK OF THE LORD, AND READ: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for MY MOUTH it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

We are also told...

Prov 5:7 Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and ~depart not~ FROM ~the words~ of MY MOUTH.


The scriptures are Gods words,


Prov 30:6 ADD THOU ~NOT~ unto HIS WORDS, lest he reprove ~thee~, and ~THOU~ be found A LIAR.


Scripture is given for reproof


Prov 1:23 ~turn you~ at my reproof: behold, ((( I will pour out my spirit unto you))), I will make known ~my words~ to you.

So He promises in turning at His reproof He will make His words known to us.

2Titus 3:16 All scripture is given by ~inspiration of God~, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for ~instruction~ in righteousness~


Jerm 35:13... Will ye not receive ~instruction~ to hearken to MY WORDS? saith the LORD.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let GOD be TRUE, but ~every man~ a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be ~justified~ in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.





If you quote men and believe this, then know your not beyond the words he speaks Nevertheless are we called to trust and abide in Him.

Trento, I never see much trust in you regarding the scriptures or the Spirit. You always appear to be turning others away from trusting in Gods words and forever trying to knock down others confidence in trusting in Him. I never see you building up anyones confidence in God.

Fireinfolding

I trust all aHis words. When He says--
2 Thess 2:15 says that the Apostolic teaching came both in "word of mouth" and "in letter," and that we are obliged to hold to both.
Thus we have two sources, not one, and that dictum is by the decree of Scripture. So if one is really paying attention to Scripture, then he must acknowledge that Scripture never claims to be the sole source or authority for what one is to believe.

 

[ProdicalChristian]

The idea that Tradition as you represent as totally dependent upon Scripture is false. Very few of the apostles actually wrote a thing. There is no record of one apostle saying, “Well, before I die, go to the apostle Paul’s writings and the gospels, and read it as your only infallible guide, although Church and Tradition will help.” To your denial that Tradition was in any way independent of Scripture, is the establishment of many apostolic Churches which were not in any way dependent on the New Testament writings. Since most of the apostles wrote nary a sentence of Scripture, it is absolutely amazing that you say Tradition was dependent upon Scripture, when there was not a NT canon for about 3 1/2 centuries. The tradition that established those Churches was dependent upon the successors of the Apostles having binding authority on the followers in Christ. For example, how was the apostolic community founded by Thomas the apostle in India dependent upon Scripture, when they did not have NT Scriptures? However, when discovered in the 1500s or so, these Indian believers had all the beliefs that the Roman Church. They somehow even believed the outrageous things like the Assumption of Mary. Their tradition, through the Apostle Thomas even though cut off from the other Churches, even submitted to Rome, because this tradition even passed on its authority. This tradition had the same belief system in the Eucharistic Sacrifice, Mary, etc.

Until someone came along and saw that men within the Church has moved away from truth using Tradition.