Why does God send GOOD Non-believers to Hell

[aiki]

Oldwiseguy. I'm so glad you posted about the hope for unbelievers in the millenium. I failed to mention that part. It is true and is in scripture. It brings me much comfort because I too have non-christains in my family.

I'm sorry to know that you have family members who stand in jeopardy of hell, but your concern for them does not warrant misinterpreting Scripture to ease that concern.

What traditional christainity teaches is not biblical.

Yes, actually, in the matter of the doctrine of hell it is.

Ppl dont go to heaven/hell when we die.

Speaking to the repentant and believing thief on the cross next to him, Jesus said,

Luke 23:43
43 ..."Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

In the parable of The Rich Man and Lazarus the Beggar, Jesus explains,

Luke 16:22-24
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

Regarding the matter of this parable being purely figurative Ron Rhodes writes,

"If at death people simply lapse into a state of nonexistence or unconsciousness, then what is the point of Luke 16:22-28? Are we to conclude that Jesus was teaching something based entirely on a falsehood - something that is wholly untrue in every way? If the rich man and Lazarus were not conscious after death, then the answer would have to be yes.

Scholars have noted that when Jesus taught people using parables or stories, he always used real-life situations. For example, as David Reed notes, 'a prodigal son returned home after squandering his money; a man found a buried treasure in a field; a king put on a wedding feast for his son; a slave-owner traveled abroad and then returned home to his slaves; a man constructed a vineyard, leased it out to others, but had difficulty collecting what they owed him; and so on. All of these were common occurences in biblical days.'

Clearly, Jesus never illustrated his teaching with a falsehood. We must conclude that Luke 16 portrays a real-life situation and should be taken as solid evidence for conscious existence after death. Any other intepretation makes an absurdity out of the text." (Ron Rhodes Reasoning From the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses. pg. 326)

If it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus was teaching literal consciousness after death in this parable, it is also reasonable to conclude that his description of what was experienced by those who were conscious after death was also literal. Certainly, this is the simplest, most straightforward and honest interpretation of the passage.

Hades in this passage has been twisted to mean "the grave" where, according to JWs, the dead person experiences "soul sleep" (a term never appearing in Scripture, and a reference to the unconscious state of the dead that the Bible never describes). But according to the reknowned Bible scholar W.E. Vine, Hades "never denotes the grave, nor is it the permanent region of the lost; in point of time it is, for such, intermediate between decease and the doom of Gehenna." (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.)

The bible and Jesus are very clear about the state of the dead. They are asleep until Jesus returns.

As the above quotations explain, this is not the case.

Only God has immortality.

This is unbiblical, too. Only God is infinite, without begining or end, but He has made the soul of each of us immortal. Many verses in Scripture indicate that while the body ceases to function at death a person's immortal soul continues on.

Matthew 10:28
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

As Ron Rhodes points out, "This verse clearly indicates that it is possible to kill the body without killing the soul."


Luke 23:46
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' " Having said this, He breathed His last.

If the soul and body are one, then this statement makes no sense; for we know that the body of Jesus was buried in a tomb, which is where his spirit would be if it was indivisible from his body.

Acts 7:59
59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

Again, this makes no sense if Stephen understood that his body and soul were essentially one. Clearly, Stephen had a different understanding, which was that when his body died his immortal spirit would ascend to God.

Philippians 1:22-23
22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Again, these two passages plainly indicate that death means the separation of body and soul where the soul of the regenerated person continues on to dwell with God.

The whole theme of the bible is how God is going to restore this earth back to how it was in the beginning, before Adam and Eve sinned.

Actually, God is going to destroy utterly this world and create a new one. There is not going to be a restoration but rather a replacement.

Revelation 21:1
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

The New Earth with God's kingdom/government ruling through Jesus Christ. If we are judged right at death, then what is the point in the resurrection?

We await the Final Judgment when God concludes the affairs of this world permanently. It is the moment when the righteous are given their full reward as the wicked are given their full punishment.

And if heaven is the christains destination, what is the purpose of God's promise of a new earth, home of righteousness?

What is wrong with having a place prepared for us in heaven and a place in the new earth? Why do you think the two are mutually exclusive?

The book of Isaiah is full of prophecies of God's coming kingdom. I wish so bad mainstream christianity would teach the truth of God's Word instead of teaching traditions of men.

Maybe you should better understand your Bible, too.

Makes me wonder what God thinks. I cannot believe preachers, who would have to know this stuff, don't teach their congregations this.

Perhaps you are mistaken, rather than all these preachers who, as you say, actually "know this stuff."

Selah.

 

[morgan4445]

Aiki. I'm not going to argue with you. I used to believe in eternal torment in hell. Believe me--very much so!!!! However, after completing many months of studying the bible and letting scripture interpret scripture, my beliefs changed. I know that unrepentant sinners that don't accept Christ will be thrown into "Gehenna Fire" (the actual words Jesus spoke). I am NOT by any means negating the fact that our God is JUST--He absolutely is!!! We all have our opinions and when I gave mine in the last post, I just put a "Generalization" on my beliefs---I did not zero in on anyone and pick-a-part each thing they said. Certainly, you are allowed to address your differing opinions, that's what this message board is about---but you don't have to do it in such a nasty manner!!! As of right now, I don't have a lot of time to post scripture that confirm my belief, as I have a birthday party to take my daughter to. However, if you are at all interested, you can google "A Challenge to the Doctrine of Eternal Torment-The Harvest Herald." I'm not asking you or anyone else to change their beliefs. But why not research things to see if the traditional view of eternal torment is REALLY taught in scripture? What's wrong with looking into things? We are supposed to study God's Word. God Bless.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Here's some food for thought. Ecclesiastes 9:5"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." There are also two verses in Psalms that reveal that "the dead cannot praise God" (cuz they're dead). The story of Lazarus and the Rich man makes the point that if one doesn't believe Moses or the Prophets they wouldn't believe one raised from the dead (a clear reference to Christ). That Lazarus was in "the bosom of Abraham" is a metaphor for his spirit being with God after death, possibly because he died in a state of grace, while the rich mans wicked soul was stored in a less favorable place. The rich man's plea to Abraham is much the same as Abel's blood "crying from the ground", metaphorically speaking. owg

 

[aiki]

Aiki. I'm not going to argue with you. I used to believe in eternal torment in hell. Believe me--very much so!!!! However, after completing many months of studying the bible and letting scripture interpret scripture, my beliefs changed.

I've studied the matter very carefully myself and come to a very different conclusion.

I know that unrepentant sinners that don't accept Christ will be thrown into "Gehenna Fire" (the actual words Jesus spoke). I am NOT by any means negating the fact that our God is JUST--He absolutely is!!! We all have our opinions and when I gave mine in the last post, I just put a "Generalization" on my beliefs---I did not zero in on anyone and pick-a-part each thing they said.

Maybe you aren't aware of this but there is a group of people on the Outreach forums who are regularly attacking the idea that hell is as the Bible describes. They go so far as to suggest that no one need fear hell or God's wrath. This, it seems to me, is simply easing people toward their eternal destruction. When you joined in the chorus, so to speak, well, I felt compelled to say something.

Certainly, you are allowed to address your differing opinions, that's what this message board is about---but you don't have to do it in such a nasty manner!!!

I think you've mistaken my straightforward approach for nastiness. I did not intend to be nasty and I apologize for sounding so. I just prefer getting directly to the point.

As of right now, I don't have a lot of time to post scripture that confirm my belief, as I have a birthday party to take my daughter to. However, if you are at all interested, you can google "A Challenge to the Doctrine of Eternal Torment-The Harvest Herald."

I've read many, many essays on this issue both pro and con. The prospect of reading one more doesn't particularly pique my interest. But thanks anyway.

I'm not asking you or anyone else to change their beliefs. But why not research things to see if the traditional view of eternal torment is REALLY taught in scripture? What's wrong with looking into things? We are supposed to study God's Word. God Bless

I think looking into things is very important. Sometimes, though, we read into Scripture what we want rather than what is actually there.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Here's some food for thought. Ecclesiastes 9:5"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." There are also two verses in Psalms that reveal that "the dead cannot praise God" (cuz they're dead).

Yes, these are popular verses with the Jehovah's Witness cult which uses them to assert the same thing you are here. Here's how Ron Rhodes answers their misinterpretation of the Ecclesiastes passage:

"While evangelical scholars interpret Ecclesiastes 9:5 in different ways, all of them agree that the verse is not teaching that man does not have a conscious existence following death....There are many scholars who interpret Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 as reflecting the earthly perspective that is unaided by divine revelation. To prove that these verses express a strictly human perspective, David Reed suggests the following:

'Not only does the writer say in verse 5 that the dead know nothing, but he also adds that "they have no more forever any share in all that is done under the sun" (vs. 6) *(which denies a future, bodily resurrection taught in the New Testament). Verse 2 expresses the thought that "one fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil," an idea contradictory to all the rest of Scripture...We conclude that verse 5 is located in the midst of a section expressing the faithless, secular viewpoint -- not God's.' *(My comment)

Since Ecclesiastes 9:1-10 expresses a strictly human perspective, then verse 5 indicates that from a strictly human viewpoint, the dead are conscious of nothing at all. This being the case, the verse does not teach God's truth. And this being so, the verse cannot be used to support the contention that there is no conscious existence after death...There are other evangelical scholars who interpret Ecclesiastes 9:5 as meaning that the dead are not conscious of events taking place in the physical realm. In their commentary, Robert Jamieson, A.R. Fausset, and David Brown say that the dead know nothing "so far as their bodily senses and worldly affairs are concerned." (Job 14:21; Isa. 63:16) (Ron Rhodes, "Reasoning From the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses." pgs. 322, 323)

The story of Lazarus and the Rich man makes the point that if one doesn't believe Moses or the Prophets they wouldn't believe one raised from the dead (a clear reference to Christ).

Yes, among other things.

That Lazarus was in "the bosom of Abraham" is a metaphor for his spirit being with God after death, possibly because he died in a state of grace, while the rich mans wicked soul was stored in a less favorable place.

In a less favorable place? I'll say! You can't get any less favorable than the flames of eternal torment!

The rich man's plea to Abraham is much the same as Abel's blood "crying from the ground", metaphorically speaking. owg

Oh? How so?

Selah.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Aiki, How does Rhodes expain Psalm 88:10-11 "Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee? Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?" These are rhetorical questions that David is asking.I was citing metaphor as a literary device, not similarities between the two examples (rich man/Abel's blood). The heart and soul of my belief in so-called 'soul sleep' is the metaphorical use of 'sleep' in referring to death, especially throughout the new testament. Lazarus was 'sleeping' in the bosom of Abraham. The only part of a person that can refer to is the unconscious 'soul' as the body decays away. Also see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."

 

[OldWiseGuy]

MORGAN (sorry for shouting, I needed to get your attention). I notice that you don't paragraph your posts. I cannot paragraph, bold, italicize, or use smilies. Do you have the same problem? Have you contacted the site about it? I did and they couldn't help me. owg

 

[morgan4445]

Hello, Oldwiseguy! I could probably do all those things, but Im too lazy. haha! Hello to you too, Aiki! I used to believe we were judged @ death and went to heaven/hell. My beliefs did not change because I have "twisted the scriptures", rather, they have changed because of my study of the scriptures. I studied with an open mind-not carrying preconceived ideas due to "man-made traditions." I let scripture interpret scripture. The bible clearly states that we don't already possess immortality. Only God is immortal.(1Tim 6:16) Immortality is a gift to be received at the resurrection. Mankind has believed Satan's lie that he first told in the Garden of Eden, "You shall not surely die." I prefer to believe God. Jesus likened death to sleep all throughout the NT. John 11:11-14 states: "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going to wake him up." His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." (they thought He meant natural sleep.) Then He replied, "He is dead." Death is likened to sleep. Read 1 Thes 4:13,16-18 and 1Cor 15:51-54. Jesus defeated death through His resurrection. This is our hope to be able to be a part of God's Kingdom on earth. Job said, "If only You would hide me in the grave.....If a man dies will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my change to come. You will call and I will answer You." (Job 14:13-15) Jesus Himself stated, "no one has ascended to heaven except He who came down from heaven." David is not in heaven. "For David did not ascend to heaven." (Acts 2:34) Is he in hell suffering eternal torment? Surely not, he was a "man of God's own heart." Where is he? "Dead and buried." (Acts 2:29) "No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises You from the grave?" If we are in heaven upon death, how are we not going to remember God? Maybe because: "The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing."(Ecc 9:6) So the unsaved in eternal torment are being tormented but don't know it? That would certainly be less sadistic, but it's not true. They are dead until the second resurrection. Hell was mistranslated so many times it's no wonder that ppl are confused. Most of the time hell simply means the grave. One can test this by comparing different bibles. Especially in the OT. Jesus never said hell. He used "Gehenna Fire." Gehenna was a garbage dump where dead bodies were cast into a fire. These bodies weren't thought good enough for burial. Gotta go. Family day today. We can finish later, or not. Peace in Christ!!!

 

[morgan4445]

The scripture that states: "No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises You in the grave?" is (Psalm 6:5) Oops. 4got that part.

 

[Jeremiah's Calling]

There's no such thing as GOOD non-believers.

"There is none good, no, not one." Besides, non-believers send themselves to hell by being non-believers - against God's explicit command.

 

[morgan4445]

Also, I would like to add: If we are judged immediately upon death, then what's the point in the "Judgement Day" that Jesus spoke of so much? That He Himself said is to happen at the end of the age? Is God going to resurrect people out of Hell to give them a few seconds of relief, and to judge them a second time, just in case He made a mistake? Then send them "back" to hell? And what would be the point in the 2 resurrections?

 

[seashale76]

I have always wondered about this. I have a brother, who is a Atheist. I pray and pray for him to accept Jesus but it just wont happen. He is a great person, like a lot of Atheists. Why would God send him to Hell? This isn't just for my brother, this is people in general.

Please give a good answer. I tryed to ask this on another site but all I got was "Jesus is our savior!" etc.. This sort of stuff doesn't help my faith.

Being nice has nothing to do with being good, as being good implies not sinning- which is not missing the mark- which implies being united to God. People choose to experience hell (gehenna)- it is more a state than a place- when they reject uniting themselves to Christ. However, when they are cast into gehenna- it is actually being cast directly into God's presence and they will HATE it. THIS is what TRADITIONAL Christianity teaches on the subject.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[seeking.IAM]

With apologies to the OP, you have chosen a curious title for this thread: "Why DOES God send good non-believers to Hell? (emphasis is mine). I ask how do you know He does? Are you privy to some inside information?

I fully suspect that God does what God wills. That is the way cool thing about being Almighty.

I think we will not know who goes to Heaven or Hell until we show up one place or the other. Wherever we end up, I suspect we will be quite surprised. I imagine a look-around would find some folks in Hell we thought were mighty fine Christians. I wouldn't be surprised either if those entering the pearly gates see someone that makes them ask with surprise, "What is he doing here?"

Judging is risky business.

 

[aiki]

Aiki, How does Rhodes expain Psalm 88:10-11 "Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise thee? Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?"

Ron Rhodes doesn't address these verses in particular, although he does explain some others from Psalms that the JWs use to proof-text their doctrine of soul sleep.

As you said, David is asking rhetorical questions in the verses you cite above. If one assumes, as the JWs do, that the body and soul are inextricably entwined, that there is no conscious awareness surviving death of the body, then David's questions can be construed to rhetorically support this view. As I have explained in the past few posts I've made on this thread, however, Scripture doesn't teach the idea of soul sleep. As the verses I've posted indicate, one's soul survives the death of one's physical body and is separated from it until the resurrection of the dead at the Final Judgment.

When David is speaking of the dead in the above passage he is speaking of the bodies of the dead, not of that immaterial part of a person that survives physical death.

The heart and soul of my belief in so-called 'soul sleep' is the metaphorical use of 'sleep' in referring to death, especially throughout the new testament.

The term "sleep" is used in reference to the dead because the body of a dead person is initially very similar in appearance to that of one who is sleeping. But a person who is dead is not actually sleeping.

Selah.

 

[the.Sheepdog]

With apologies to the OP, you have chosen a curious title for this thread: "Why DOES God send good non-believers to Hell? (emphasis is mine). I ask how do you know He does? Are you privy to some inside information?

I fully suspect that God does what God wills. That is the way cool thing about being Almighty.

I think we will not know goes to Heaven or Hell until we show up one place or the other. Wherever we end up, I suspect we will be quite surprised. I imagine a look-around would find some folks in Hell we thought were mighty fine Christians. I wouldn't be surprised either if those entering the pearly gates see someone that makes them ask with surprise, "What is he doing here?"

Judging is risky business.

True and we are admonished not to judge others ourselves. Scripture tells us that Jesus is the way to the Father and He is the only way. Those who deny this truth cannot be saved from destruction. To deny this up to ones death is a death sentence for ones soul as well.

God is not a liar that He will do something He says he will not do. He also will do what He says He will do. Those who deny Him are lost and God will send them to everlasting Hell. Their is no escape.

 

[aiki]

The bible clearly states that we don't already possess immortality. Only God is immortal.(1Tim 6:16) Immortality is a gift to be received at the resurrection.

Evangelical Christian scholars generally agree that verse 16 is referring to Christ's "sovereign prerogative of immortality" or his non-contingent immortality. Whereas we are given immortality by God, Jesus being God possesses immortality as a necessary aspect of his divine nature. In this sense, he "only has immortality."

Death is likened to sleep.

Exactly. Death is like sleep, it is not actually sleep.

1Cor 15:51-54. - Speaks specifically of our physical bodies that, unlike our immaterial souls, have corrupted in the grave.

1 Thes 4:13,16-18 - Who will Jesus bring with him when he comes again? Christian believers.
- Do those believers the Lord is bringing with Him have physical bodies? No, they don't receive their resurrection bodies until verse 16.
- If Jesus is bringing believers with him (vs. 14), but they don't have resurrection bodies yet (vs. 16), doesn't this mean that the immaterial souls/spirits of these believers are with Jesus and will be reunited with their bodies at the resurrection? Obviously, yes.

John 3:13 - Jesus indicates what other passages of Scripture teach, which is that until the Final Judgment our souls/spirits reside in Hades in either a paradise known as "Abraham's Bosom," or in a place of fiery torment. This isn't a permanent condition, however, for there will come a time when all believers will ascend into heaven even as Christ did.

"The living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing."(Ecc. 9:6)

So the unsaved in eternal torment are being tormented but don't know it?

See my earlier post to OWG on this verse.

Hell was mistranslated so many times it's no wonder that ppl are confused. Most of the time hell simply means the grave.

Many eminent Bible scholars do not agree with this rendering of the term "hell" or hades. See my earlier post to OWG.

Have a fun family day!

Selah.

 

[morgan4445]

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a parable, a story. The bible is highly symbolic, especially Jesus' parables. If we are to take every single word Jesus says absolutely literally, then we Christains should be going around with our eyes plucked out and our limbs cut off. Jesus used symbolic language to teach spiritual truth. The parable says nothing about the righteous or the wicked. Are we to believe all of the rich go to hell while all of the poor go to heaven/paradise? And that if someone were literally engulfed in flames writhing around in torment, they would only ask for a drop of water? Are we to believe that the saved in heaven/paradise can see and converse with the damned burning in flames? If so, heaven/paradise doesn't sound very happy to me. And how could someone in torments, writhing around in flames even speak? And who really cares that the Rich Man was wearing purple when thrown into hell? Who cares that he had "5" brothers, or that dogs were licking Lazarus' wounds--unless these descriptions all symbloze something. The two men represented two groups. Rich man- as symbolized by various details(purple robe-symbol of wealth) represents the Jewish nation. Poor man(Lazarus) represents Gentiles(which at times were referred to as dogs, begging for spritual crumbs...remember Jesus talking to the gentile woman?) The Jewish nation fared sumptuously every day according to the parable, meaning the promises of God belonged to them, and they were privileged to feast upon these promises. Their table was full with these good things from the word of God. The purple robe represented the royal hopes of the nation, the fine white linen represented the standing of righteousness the nation enjoyed as a result of sacrifices made year by year for them. This righteousness was merely typical of the righteousness enjoyed by spiritual Israel through the blood of Christ, nevertheless, it gave them good standing before God which other nations did not enjoy. Israel died and lost all of these special favors of the Lord, but the individuals of the nation continued to live, and each generation after that has suffered. They have suffered because of being members of of a nation that was dead. (Prophecy Deut 32:22) The poor man-representing the Gentiles-also "died" to that condition of alienation from God which was theirs prior to the first advent of Jesus. Believing Gentiles were carried to Abraham's bosom, meaning they became the children of Abraham through faith, and inherited the promises of God which were made to and through Abraham. The key that identifies the rich man is in the statement concerning his "5" brothers- "They have Moses and the prophets." This was true only of the Jewish nation. The nation was divided into twelve tribes. Following the Babylonian captivity, it was mostly the members of the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin that returned to Judea, although some of all the tribes returned. It was largely, the two tribes to whom Jesus ministered, and who would be represented by this rich man of this parable. If this one man represented two tribes, the other ten tribes could be well represented by his "5" brothers. The parable shows they shared the same fate because they failed to "Hear Moses and the prophets." This parable shows a "change", or reversal of spiritual condition. That's why the rich man was tormented. But the parable does not teach that the Jewish nation will suffer forever. There are many phrophecies that show it will only be temporary, and now these prophecies are being fulfilled. Eventually their eyes will be opened to recognize Jesus as thier Messiah.

 

[morgan4445]

I am not trying to twist scripture to "what I want it to say." If I were doing that I would have it say that eventually everyone will repent and be saved. Nor am I trying to undermine God's judgement. It is a very fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God! We all need Jesus because He is our only chance. Nobody could stand before God based upon their own merit. We are all filthy rags. Eternal death is not something to be taken lightly. It's sad! But God won't have a choice if ppl won't let go of their sin. The purpose of Gehenna Fire is to eradicate sin and sinners. For God to have an eternal place of torment somewhere in the universe would not eradicate sin, but perpetuate it. The damned are raised in the second resurrection and cast into the Lake of Fire-which is the *second* death. It's called the second death for a reason. We all die once, but after this death there will be no hope of a resurrection ever again. The Gehenna Fire/Lake of Fire will be on this earth. (2Peter 2:6) "He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to *ashes*, making them an *example* of what's going to happen to the ungodly." (2Peter3:6) (regarding Noah's flood) states "By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the Day of Judgement and *destruction* of ungodly men." When Jesus spoke of Gehenna Fire using the words "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched", he was quoting (Isaiha 66:24) which states: "And they(the redeemed) will go out and look upon the bodies of those who rebelled against Me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." This is on the earth, unless the "redeemed" take a trip to hell. The fire is "unquenchable", so to speak, because nothing can thwart God's Judgement, nothing can put this fire out until it's purpose is served. Sodom and Gomorrah were said to be destroyed with an "unquenchable fire", but they're not still burning. The phrase "their worm will not die" that Jesus quoted from the Isaiha passage is used to show the state of the slain on the earth. Decomposing, worm-filled carcasses. Jesus said to "Fear Him who is able to *destroy* both body and soul in Gehenna Fire." Why do ppl not believe God is capable of destroying us when He says throughout the bible that is what He is going to do? We have 2 choices: life on the new earth with our Lord or eternal death, "The wages of sin is *death*(doesn't say eternal torment forever), but the gift of God is eternal *life* through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:23) The most quoted scripture of all is (John 3:16), yet nobody really stops to think about it. "God gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in Him should not *perish*, but have everlasting life." Why doesn't it say "should not be tormented and burned for all eternity, but have everlasting life?" Because the bible always contrasts death with life. How come the OT is silent about eternal torment? Why didn't Moses mention it when he told God's law and the consequences for breaking it? Which was usually *death*. Why didn't God warn ppl of such a painful and horrible state that will never,ever,ever end? But, He has warned: The wicked shall suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), shall be "destroyed" (Psalm 145:20), shall suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), shall "perish" (Psalm37:20), shall be "burned up" (Malachi 4:1), shall be "destroyed together" (psalm 37:38), will perish: "The Lord's enemies will be like the beauty of the fields, they will vanish-vanish like smoke." (Psalm 37:20), "In a little while, and the wicked will be no more:though you look for them, they will not be found, but the meek shall inherit the land." (Psalm 37:10-11), "shall be cut off." (Psalm 37:9), "shall be devoured" (Psalm 21:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3), Also read (Malachi 4)- "The Day of the Lord-will burn like a furnace, evildoers will be stubble,set on fire,not a root or branch left,.....wicked will be *ashes* under the soles of your feet." Being thrown into the Lake of Fire sounds very scary to me. I am very much afraid of God's judgement. I am so glad that Jesus is my Savior and I don't have to worry about the Lake of Fire. He came to redeem us from death. God isn't willing that any should *perish*, but wants us all to repent and choose life. He has something wonderful planned for those who belong to Him. Something beyond our comprehension. The New Earth will be fabulous!!! The book of Isaiha is full of beautiful prophecies that give us just a glimpse of the world to come. oops! I am so sorry this is soooo long. I've said enough, and probably won't post again. Everyone take care!

 

[morgan4445]

OLDWISEGUY-Hey, do you remember where that scripture is that refers to the 100 years? I used to know where is was but can't find it. Is it in Isaiah? If u dont remember, no biggie. I love that scripture. God is soooo fair! oops. I know I said I probably wouldn't post again, so much for keeping my mouth shut. Hahaha.

 

[aiki]

The purpose of Gehenna Fire is to eradicate sin and sinners. For God to have an eternal place of torment somewhere in the universe would not eradicate sin, but perpetuate it.

The purpose of hell is to punish sin. (Matt. 25:46) It is the expression of God's wrathful judgment upon the unrepentant wickedness of human beings. Punishment, by its very nature, is only punishment if it is experienced. To suggest that hell annihilates the wicked renders the idea of it as punishment null and void. Annihilation precludes punishment.

The existence of hell no more perpetuates sin than the use of prisons perpetuates crime.

The damned are raised in the second resurrection and cast into the Lake of Fire-which is the *second* death. It's called the second death for a reason. We all die once, but after this death there will be no hope of a resurrection ever again.

W.E. Vine, the eminent bible scholar says the following about the concept of death in the Scripture:

(a) the separation of the soul (the spiritual part of man) from the body (the material part), the latter ceasing to function and turning to dust.
(b) the separation of man from God...death is the opposite of life; it never denotes non-existence. As spiritual life is "conscious communion with God,: so spiritual death is "conscious existence in separation from God."

(W.E Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.)

I could go on, but I've run out of time for now. I'll see about addressing the rest of your posts in a while.

Selah.