Why does God permit evil?

[DonnyT]

Evil is simply a relative term to define what one person finds objectionable. Nothing is purely evil or good to anyone, without it also being the opposite to someone else.

What I consider good someone else finds evil, and what I find evil, someone considers good.

So your question should be, why do we do things that other people find evil?

I would disagree. The Bible says what is evil and what is not. Ex. killing is evil since God is the opposite of evil and he said, "thou shalt not kill."

 

[KCDAD]

I would disagree. The Bible says what is evil and what is not. Ex. killing is evil since God is the opposite of evil and he said, "thou shalt not kill."

and God never kills or commands his followers to do so...

 

[Kristin E]

God is in control of all things especially evil.

You say man has a freewill, this is true. But man does not have a freewill to choose God. Sin is our nature; that is the way God created us. When Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit, it was God who caused man to fall, Adam or eve had no choice.

I don't believe God caused Adam & Eve to Sin, More so he gave them Free Will to choose to Sin or Deny Sin... Sadly they chose Sin over Salvation and they fell from God and because of that Sin has entered our World. So no you cannot blame God by saying he caused Sin... When it's actually Satan who caused Sin.

 

[DonnyT]

I don't believe God caused Adam & Eve to Sin, More so he gave them Free Will to choose to Sin or Deny Sin... Sadly they chose Sin over Salvation and they fell from God and because of that Sin has entered our World. So no you cannot blame God by saying he caused Sin... When it's actually Satan who caused Sin.

I don't believe God is directly responsible but He is indirectly responsible. It would not make sense if God knew the limitations of Adam and Eve's resistance to temptation and yet He still allowed the serpent in the Tree. IMO it was not God's desire to cause mankind to fall but for mankind to understand good and evil. The fall is simply part of the process. I also believe that it is Satan who tempts us, but it is God who allows it.

Throughout history, Christianity has taught that Satan is evil and is God's enemy. But, IMO there is a delicate balance between the two where God employs Satan in certain ways to carry out His purposes.

 

[DonnyT]

and God never kills or commands his followers to do so...

It's evil for us to kill, but it's divine if God kills since God is above good and evil.

 

[Kristin E]

I don't believe God is directly responsible but He is indirectly responsible. It would not make sense if God knew the limitations of Adam and Eve's resistance to temptation and yet He still allowed the serpent in the Tree. IMO it was not God's desire to cause mankind to fall but for mankind to understand good and evil. The fall is simply part of the process. I also believe that it is Satan who tempts us, but it is God who allows it.

Throughout history, Christianity has taught that Satan is evil and is God's enemy. But, IMO there is a delicate balance between the two where God employs Satan in certain ways to carry out His purposes.

I understand God allows it, but he probably does so because it's a part of Free Will, If he didn't allow Satan to tempt or do Evil, then we would not have the Free Will to think or do as we please.

 

[DonnyT]

I understand God allows it, but he probably does so because it's a part of Free Will, If he didn't allow Satan to tempt or do Evil, then we would not have the Free Will to think or do as we please.

Ya...free will is a whole other subject so I'll leave it at that...lol

 

[KCDAD]

It's evil for us to kill, but it's divine if God kills since God is above good and evil.

So killing isn't evil. Good to know.

 

[DonnyT]

So killing isn't evil. Good to know.

Wha? What part of "it's evil for us to kill" didn't you get?

 

[squint]

Wha? What part of "it's evil for us to kill" didn't you get?

It's always justifiable on Gods Part to murder anyone. At least that is the common view. I'd view those matters more as a mercy killing.

 

[KCDAD]

Wha? What part of "it's evil for us to kill" didn't you get?

I get it... "do as I say, not as I do"

It isn't the killing that is evil, it is the fact that we are doing it that is evil.

You believe morality to be in the intention or motivation of the act. I agree.

 

[DonnyT]

I get it... "do as I say, not as I do"

It isn't the killing that is evil, it is the fact that we are doing it that is evil.

You believe morality to be in the intention or motivation of the act. I agree.

Well that and also, since God is the divine creator He can do as He pleases with His creations. We being the creations have no say with the lives of other creations.

 

[I-can-see]

Why does God permit evil? Hmmm...I think he just allows us to do as we wish, because it is meaningless otherwise. You cannot FORCE anyone to love you, not anyone with free will that is. God has given us all the ability to chose our own destiny, to make our own choices. So, we cannot blame any evil on God, but rather creations abuse of the free will that God has given it.

It is the subject of sifi all the time...AI rises up against its human creators, simply because we have given the machines the ability to think. Then the machines begin to revolt against their creators. The result is killing, bloodshed, and destruction of the earth...

Can't really blame God for the evil that we as humans commit, it is our own fault.

Well that and also, since God is the divine creator He can do as He pleases with His creations. We being the creations have no say with the lives of other creations.

That is not entirely true. We have a BIG say in the lives of other creations since our actions have consequences good OR bad.

If you toss a stone in a lake, it creates ripples. These ripples will effect anything that is close enough to be effected, and will last long after the stone itself has vanished. Like a stone being tossed in a lake, we create ripples that will effect anyone around us. UNLIKE the stone tossed in the lake, our ripples influence other people and the decisions they make.

That is why Adams fall was SO devistating. Since he was the FIRST of humankind, his "ripples" effected all of human kind, and the creation of which we as humans have been mad to govern over. But, lucky for us, Jesus came to correct things. I am just glad that we have been given the power to become sons of God through the blood of Jesus Christ. That we can escape the ripples of our own sin, and ride Jesus's ripples to our salvation. ^.^

 

[DonnyT]

Why does God permit evil? Hmmm...I think he just allows us to do as we wish, because it is meaningless otherwise. You cannot FORCE anyone to love you, not anyone with free will that is. God has given us all the ability to chose our own destiny, to make our own choices. So, we cannot blame any evil on God, but rather creations abuse of the free will that God has given it.

It is the subject of sifi all the time...AI rises up against its human creators, simply because we have given the machines the ability to think. Then the machines begin to revolt against their creators. The result is killing, bloodshed, and destruction of the earth...

Can't really blame God for the evil that we as humans commit, it is our own fault.



That is not entirely true. We have a BIG say in the lives of other creations since our actions have consequences good OR bad.

If you toss a stone in a lake, it creates ripples. These ripples will effect anything that is close enough to be effected, and will last long after the stone itself has vanished. Like a stone being tossed in a lake, we create ripples that will effect anyone around us. UNLIKE the stone tossed in the lake, our ripples influence other people and the decisions they make.

That is why Adams fall was SO devistating. Since he was the FIRST of humankind, his "ripples" effected all of human kind, and the creation of which we as humans have been mad to govern over. But, lucky for us, Jesus came to correct things. I am just glad that we have been given the power to become sons of God through the blood of Jesus Christ. That we can escape the ripples of our own sin, and ride Jesus's ripples to our salvation. ^.^

Hi. If you read the earlier posts you would have read that this was in response to whether or not killing is considered evil and not to be taken out of context.

 

[KCDAD]

Well that and also, since God is the divine creator He can do as He pleases with His creations. We being the creations have no say with the lives of other creations.

This always amuses me... God, to people like you, sits around thinking of "fun" things to do. What pleased God today? Another earthquake, 20,000 children dying of starvation, another suicide bomber killing hundreds or thousands of innocents? We haven't had animals falling from the sky lately... this will get them talking!
Hundreds of fish fall out of the sky over remote Australian town of Lajamanu | Mail Online

Raining animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To the ignorant uneducated person, these are miracles!

There is only direction for God's will... there are no choices. Truth, Mercy, Justice, Love... God can not make choices. The ability to make choices is the ability to choose poorly.

 

[DonnyT]

This always amuses me... God, to people like you, sits around thinking of "fun" things to do. What pleased God today? Another earthquake, 20,000 children dying of starvation, another suicide bomber killing hundreds or thousands of innocents? We haven't had animals falling from the sky lately... this will get them talking!
Hundreds of fish fall out of the sky over remote Australian town of Lajamanu | Mail Online

Raining animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To the ignorant uneducated person, these are miracles!

There is only direction for God's will... there are no choices. Truth, Mercy, Justice, Love... God can not make choices. The ability to make choices is the ability to choose poorly.

Read Romans 9. God makes all things, suffering and well being, work for His divine purpose, not pleasure. The question is, are you of such little faith, you cannot trust this?

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Yes. Someone said on here God can make a square circle. But God has set restrictions on himself in that He will not break His own rules (do an immoral act) If you're asking if He would command someone else to do an immoral act, absolutely not.

There is a problem with that argument: if a square can be made circular, it is not an absolute square because its form can be changed by whim. Therefore, it is only a square because God commands it to be so, not because a square is a universal concept. This necessarily argues that a thing is a square (or good, for that matter) because God has the despotic power to command it to be so. This in fact trivializes the goodness of God because it removes any moral authority from his power since it would essentially and simply mean that God obeys his own commands to be good. This invites the question: so what if God obeys his own authority?

To believe that God is capable of things which are inherently impossible (i.e. absurdities), is to accept that anything is possible at all, including that God is evil. This position must necessarily concede that God is just as likely to be a demon capable of great deception as he is to be goodness, insofar that man would be unable to distinguish one from the other should God be a despotic, all-powerful being unrestrained by necessity or logic.

 

[squint]

There is a problem with that argument: if a square can be made circular, it is not an absolute square because its form can be changed by whim. Therefore, it is only a square because God commands it to be so, not because a square is a universal concept. This necessarily argues that a thing is a square (or good, for that matter) because God has the despotic power to command it to be so. This in fact trivializes the goodness of God because it removes any moral authority from his power since it would essentially and simply mean that God obeys his own commands to be good. This invites the question: so what if God obeys his own authority?

To believe that God is capable of things which are inherently impossible (i.e. absurdities), is to accept that anything is possible at all, including that God is evil. This position must necessarily concede that God is just as likely to be a demon capable of great deception as he is to be goodness, insofar that man would be unable to distinguish one from the other should God be a despotic, all-powerful being unrestrained by necessity or logic.

Logic also dictates that God does not serve MAN MADE logic. IF we had all the knowledge, authority, power etc etc etc that GOD SURELY HAS, then we would be ABLE to say what God can and cannot do.

God is SURELY not a forced adherent to LIMITED MAN MADE logic. Perhaps in a multitude of dimensions many illogical things can be simultaneously TRUE i.e. the square circle question. God is NOT forced to obey logic only as WE see it. He serves HIS OWN form of logic, whatEVER that is, we cannot say.

What/Who God is is ONLY known and knowable in FULL UNTO HIM, by HIMSELF Alone.

Spiritual logic also dictates that all things serve The Maker of all things by Divine Superiority, whatsoever things that are. Even foolish imaginations DO serve His Purposes in some ways that we may not perceive.

 

[AmericanCatholic]

Logic also dictates that God does not serve MAN MADE logic. IF we had all the knowledge, authority, power etc etc etc that GOD SURELY HAS, then we would be ABLE to say what God can and cannot do.

Logic is the study of reasoning. If the universe exists according to a particular set of rules, then it follows that those rules apply to all things in the universe. Who studies them (man or God) is irrelevant because the rules exist of themselves. Is God independent of the rules which govern the universe? If so, then I direct you to my previous post concerning the consequences of a despotic god unrestrained by logic.

God is SURELY not a forced adherent to LIMITED MAN MADE logic.

I have no made such claim. Rather, I assert that God is constrained by the logic of his own existence; that is, being perfect, good, and all-powerful, characteristics that ascribe to him a particular form of behavior. If you insist that a perfectly good all-powerful God not only created evil, but practices and commands it, then it raises serious questions about goodness in general and his goodness specifically.

Perhaps in a multitude of dimensions many illogical things can be simultaneously TRUE i.e. the square circle question.

A square is not a circle. These are two separate concepts. Even God distinguishes between a square and a circle. Likewise, God is distinguished from other beings because he is perfect, good, and all-powerful. In other words, he is not imperfect, evil, or weak. It follows then that God's capacity is thus determined to be constrained by his perfection, by his goodness, and by his power. He cannot do what is imperfect, evil, or weak.

God is NOT forced to obey logic only as WE see it. He serves HIS OWN form of logic, whatEVER that is, we cannot say.

God is required to obey his own characteristics; that is, he is required to be perfect, good, and all-powerful. Is there any evidence that any of these traits are more dominant or compelling than the others? If not, then a contradiction exists in the claim that a perfectly good all powerful god is capable of creating, practicing, and commanding evil.

What/Who God is is ONLY known and knowable in FULL UNTO HIM, by HIMSELF Alone.

In other words, you are saying that it is not possible to know that God is good, all-powerful, and perfect. This means, by extension, that no one really knows if God is actually the devil or not.

 

[squint]

Logic is the study of reasoning. If the universe exists according to a particular set of rules, then it follows that those rules apply to all things in the universe.

The classic observations of Spinoza.

Who studies them (man or God) is irrelevant because the rules exist of themselves.

The presumption put in play is that the 'rules' as you say, theologically speaking are of and from God. The departure is that God is not 'subject to' the rules. God is not a slave of less than full knowledge, power or all the things that He has and is. When we make God "subject to" we do so logically APART from all the required components to make those types of logical assertions, and make those assertions only upon what 'we' know and perceive. That is faulty logic in and of itself.

Is God independent of the rules which govern the universe? If so, then I direct you to my previous post concerning the consequences of a despotic god unrestrained by logic.

And I might simply say that God can certainly be great enough to make EVIL His servant. Who can define or limit what Perfection IS and CAN DO? Certainly not you or I or any given set of us.

We might agree that God cannot be eternally EVIL or as you say, to be THE DEVIL, but God certainly and without doubt CREATED the devil.

There are some assertion sets that work IN PART...emphasis on PART. There is a certain mystery involved with matters eternal, to which any good student must bow.

I have no made such claim. Rather, I assert that God is constrained by the logic of his own existence;

And the error contained in that assertion is that 'we know in full' what that is or might be. NO orthodox theologian has BRANDED the Trinity other than a MYSTERY at the final analysis, knowing that any constructs we apply will rightfully escape FULL encompass of Him.

that is, being perfect, good, and all-powerful, characteristics that ascribe to him a particular form of behavior.

That is where I'll part company with you. God can do and use ANYTHING for His Own conclusions and determinations. We PRESUME that it is for THE PERFECT INTENTIONS that HE HAS, but who really knows what those are or entail? An eternally perfect intention is an exceptionally hard thing to get ones mind around. By definition these types of observations escape mankinds logic sets.

If you insist that a perfectly good all-powerful God not only created evil, but practices and commands it, then it raises serious questions about goodness in general and his goodness specifically.

ONLY in YOUR mind. I believe God can and DOES EMPLOY evil without any question by His Own Words and does so because HE CAN prove Himself greater than the SUM OF ALL EVIL. Many a theologian stumbles by trying to impose or paint God as APART from and incapable of USING evil to PERFECT intentions. Where is HOPE RAISED but from DARKNESS? Does that make GOD DARK for MAKING HOPE RISE from same? Not one little bit. I HOPE you see the point.

A square is not a circle.

Please understand what is being put in play in this. ONE cannot make ANY LOGICAL ASSERTION that is COMPLETE and FULL without ALL the neccessary components to make such assertions. We do not know ALL that God Is, Does and HAS. Therefore it is ILLOGICAL to make such claims. We can make such claims upon what WE KNOW, but WE DON'T KNOW everything, therefore any such claims are PARTIAL in knowledge, which does not make such claims PERFECT or even TRUE. Temporal true, yes, but IMPOSING upon and making GOD BOW AND BEND? Assuredly NOT. There can be a MULTITUDE of various temporal truths IN PLAY in many ways and they will ALL SERVE GOD by His Divine Superiority. That is why we do christian theology. There are observations that the terms ETERNAL and the OM's bring to the table that are by nature, mysteries unending and transcendent.

These are two separate concepts. Even God distinguishes between a square and a circle.

As stated prior, when you have ALL and EVERYTHING that God Is, knows and does, THEN you can make full assertions about HOW and WHY. This is logically beyond our grasp.

Likewise, God is distinguished from other beings because he is perfect, good, and all-powerful.

Indeed. Now TRY to build a MAN MADE coral around those terms. It simply is NOT possible.

In other words, he is not imperfect, evil, or weak.

Just because EVIL exists it does not equate to GOD being EVIL for having made or deployed such powers. God CAN and does MAKE all things yet HE cannot be equated with ANY THING. This is like theology 101. By making God the same as ANY created thing one steps onto the ground of pantheism, which was part of Spinoza's problem.

It follows then that God's capacity is thus determined to be constrained by his perfection,

That statement is an incredible leap of ILLOGIC. When you can DEFINE and CONTAIN PERFECTION, then you can make such assertions. But none of us can. I doubt that will EVER happen in ALL of ETERNITY. Such a view flies in the face of God, as if we can HORSE COLLAR Him and FIND HIS END. That is not how theology works.

by his goodness, and by his power. He cannot do what is imperfect, evil, or weak.

God can CERTAINLY use and employ ALL of the above for His Purposes. That doesn't MAKE GOD any of those things.

God is required to obey his own characteristics; that is, he is required to be perfect, good, and all-powerful.

I hope you're getting the point by now that YOU or any group of us ARE NOT THE DETERMINANTS of such things are or consist of IN FULL. It is not theologically possible for the SUM OF ALL THINGS to be THE TOTAL DETERMINANT of The Maker of all things. That is simplistic REVERSE logic. It doesn't work. Please have a little respect for WHO we are dealing with here i.e. He will not be bending to IMPERFECT determinations with LESS than full and absolute knowledge, power etc etc. That is just plain stupid.

Is there any evidence that any of these traits are more dominant or compelling than the others? If not, then a contradiction exists in the claim that a perfectly good all powerful god is capable of creating, practicing, and commanding evil.

You can put pollyanna paint upon God all you please. There is certainly the option of GOD making, using, employing and commanding EVIL exactly for HIS DIVINE INTENTIONS. IF this were NOT so, there is no cause for HIM to allow such to exist or continue.

All things serve THE MAKER of all things. This is as logical as I can state and I believe it is backed by scriptural observation i.e. Rev. 4:11

In other words, you are saying that it is not possible to know that God is good, all-powerful, and perfect.

We can certainly say THAT IS, but encompassing definitions will LOGICALLY escape capture.

This means, by extension, that no one really knows if God is actually the devil or not.

I don't find that to be presented in text. But I certainly cannot say God does not hold complete SWAY over that entity or power. Can YOU? Your own present Pope is QUITE FOND of throwing around the SIN OF OMISSION i.e. for passive submittal to abortion for example, but GOD would be committing the classic case of OMission by NON intervention when HE CERTAINLY could.

enjoy!

squint