Why does God allow us to suffer?

joshua 1 9 said:

You can deny God but you can not deny that God used the language of DNA to create life here on Earth.

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Yes I can, and do.
DNA is the language (if you like ) of nature, but I don't take it that nature requires, of necessity, a deity.
If that is maintained questions would arise over some very odd acts of such a proposed deity.
Instances of blatant unintelligent design, for example.

Locutus said:

Not so. I'm genuinely interested in learning how believers justify a god who allows profound suffering.

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I would rather live and endure hardship than never have lived at all. We may have pain at times but we have pleasure too. Unbelievers blame God but that's because they don't believe in Him, if they did believe they would see that this world is not the end but only the beginning. Why should we blame God if our beginning is both good and bad? He promises the end is going to justify the means. Why not believe in God? Is it better to go through life, endure hardship and then die, without any hope? Or is is better to go through life with hope that our end is going to be a new beginning?

I dont see any profit in endless debating. iIts not following what ive been taught. These things never come to a resolution so the only point is to argue. Its not good to engage in strife when love is our goal.

Matter of fact, to cease from strife and walk in love is the doctrine of Christ. Many people on the internet dont seem to see this. WE debate all day long, never seeing the truth.

Chris B said:

Yes I can, and do.
DNA is the language (if you like ) of nature, but I don't take it that nature requires, of necessity, a deity.
If that is maintained questions would arise over some very odd acts of such a proposed deity.
Instances of blatant unintelligent design, for example.

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We are not referring to a deity we are talking about a Divine Cause. Science is based on a relationship between cause and effect. Evolution is a cause and Creationism is a cause. Then there is Theistic Evolution that is a combination of Evolution and Creationism. Theistic Evolution believes that the God of the Bible is the Divine Cause behind Evolution. God spoke and the language He used was DNA. The Hebrew people believed that Ancient Hebrew was the language God used when He created the world. Non theistic evolutionists believe that evolution is the result of mistakes, errors and mutation. That still does not answer the question of where the DNA came from to mutate. We can say that DNA like everything else was created by the Laws of the Universe. As Christians and Creationists we say God is the Law giver. Just as He gave the Law to Moses in the Bible, God Created the Natural Laws that regulate the Universe and the Laws that govern DNA.

Mistakes, errors and mutations are lawlessness. They are a violations of the Law of God and the Laws that regulate this universe. As we talk about in the various fine tuning theories.

Chris B said:

Yes, go against nature and the odds are against you.
No need to bring a deity into it.
Reality out-votes opinions about reality, however confidently or vehemently they are held.
"I was certain I had room to get my car through there."

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There is very little substance to a car, or anything else in the Universe. Most of the Universe is energy. That is why the entire universe could be compacted down to the size of a mustard seed or perhaps even smaller then that. The problem is what actually makes up the substance of our universe is so tiny that it is just to small for us to study. In fact it is all so tiny that we did not know for sure if Higgs bosons existed or not. The Large Hadron Collider at CERN is the equipment scientists used to find it.

Extraneous said:

I would rather live and endure hardship than never have lived at all. We may have pain at times but we have pleasure too. Unbelievers blame God but that's because they don't believe in Him, if they did believe they would see that this world is not the end but only the beginning. Why should we blame God if our beginning is both good and bad? He promises the end is going to justify the means. Why not believe in God? Is it better to go through life, endure hardship and then die, without any hope? Or is is better to go through life with hope that our end is going to be a new beginning?

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sigh .... we can't and don't 'blame god' for anything, because we don't believe gods exist. do you blame fairies for problems you encounter in your garden?

and we don't 'go through life encountering hardship', we experience good and bad in the same proportions as most humans in comfortable, rich, western nations, and we make the very best of it, knowing it's our only CERTAIN chance to live. we treasure every second, because there ain't no more.

Extraneous said:

I dont see any profit in endless debating. iIts not following what ive been taught. These things never come to a resolution so the only point is to argue. Its not good to engage in strife when love is our goal.

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this is a debate forum, Extraneous. built for the purpose. it's where people come to exchange conflicting ideas.

it's not the place to come if you're looking for an echo chamber.

Extraneous said:

Matter of fact, to cease from strife and walk in love is the doctrine of Christ. Many people on the internet dont seem to see this. WE debate all day long, never seeing the truth.

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debate is not strife, though. it's debate.

do you not want to see indoctrinated ideas challenged? ESPECIALLY ones which have never been challenged before? don't you want to make sure we're not perpetuating dark mischief because we were too afraid to ask questions?

There is suffering in the flesh. The flesh can profit nothing. It's nature is sin. sin only leads to death, destruction, confusion/chaos- suffering. This is why Christ came and the Gospels needs to be preached, because He suffered in the flesh and was obedient to GOD to the point of death by crucifixion. Despite being crucified without a cause, the Love of God was still in Him, forgiving us all. Because of Him we now have His Holy Spirit. Romans 8:6

Extraneous said:

I would rather live and endure hardship than never have lived at all. We may have pain at times but we have pleasure too.

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That's the majority view of all of humanity. It seems to be common ground.

Unbelievers blame God but that's because they don't believe in Him,

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Err, no... That would be silly.
There is a good argument by hypothesis that *if* there was an omnipotent and benevolent deity, then the this world would not contain as much injustice suffering, pain and waster as it does.
I can make a better case for a cruel or capricious deity (think of the Norse or Greek pantheons, for example) than for a purely benevolent or loving one. (a good few theologies find room for a "trickster" deity, in accounting for the observed world.)

if they did believe they would see that this world is not the end but only the beginning. Why should we blame God if our beginning is both good and bad? He promises the end is going to justify the means.

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But that's also the line of many a tyrant or revolutionary, licensing evil for the aim of a greater good (inevitably not yet present or visible), the "greater good" somehow not being achievable by honest and honourable means.
"You cant make an omelette without breaking eggs"? But it is all too easy to break a lot of eggs and fail to produce the promised omelette.

Why not believe in God?

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Well, in my case it was down to bible study, learning more about the history of the Christian church, and to observing the world and comparing it to Christianity's account of it.

Is it better to go through life, endure hardship and then die, without any hope? Or is is better to go through life with hope that our end is going to be a new beginning?

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Personally I'll take no hope over a false one, anytime.
Real hope is nice, but it's a luxury not a necessity.
(yes, I know the opposite is often taught.)

I believed that death was a new beginning for many years of my adult life, until I found I couldn't sustain that with a clear and comfortable conscience any more.
I now think Shakespeare has it. Brief candles all, doing just the one show on stage, once. And then "heard no more."
It makes life matter more, not less, if anything. It's not just a rehearsal or qualification for something bigger and more important: this is it. The whole deal.

Even Paul, could see that "nothing to lose" by belief didn't work (against those who use the line proposing belief under any variant of Pascal's wager.)

"If our hope in Christ is good for this life only and no more, then we deserve more pity than anyone else in all the world."
1 Cor 15:19 (GNT)

(Edit for spelling and punctuation)

joshua 1 9 said:

The problem is what actually makes up the substance of our universe is so tiny that it is just to small for us to study.

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Agreed, apart from the almost all the universe which is so big and distant we also have to work hard to invent massive instrumentation to study that. Now putting instruments into deep space because Earth is too dirty and noisy to give them the peaceful quiet that they need (that aided by liquid helium, to stop relatively warm atoms moving too much!)

RyanC111 said:

There is suffering in the flesh.

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There is suffering in the underpants. The underpants alone can profit nothing. Their nature is to sag. Saggy underpants only lead to embarrassment, confusion/chaos - suffering. This is why Lord Pantalus came, and the new elastic inserted, because He suffered in the underpants, to the point of sag. Despite being ensagged without cause, the Love of Lord Pantalus prevailed, shoring up duds for all of us. Because of Him we now have His Holy Elastic.

Extraneous said:

You must forgive me, i don't mean to sound harsh, but im tired of hearing atheists bash Christianity. They actually don't know what they are talking about. They bash the whole religion, not seeing that it actually helps people become better people. I use to be such a person, going around bashing things i didn't understand. Now however, i try to stay focused on saying good things instead of bad things. Most of harsh my replies are in defense of the Gospel truth. I know the Gospel teaches good things, and i cant bear to hear it being dragged through the mud. So if atheists want to come here, maybe they should at least put away their bigotry and misconceptions, and try to see that the Gospel is not a bad thing.

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I would like to give you ground, but I cannot give you much.
"bash Christianity" "bash the whole religion": this is loaded language and implies that that this "hitting" is without foundation or reason (Christianity being beyond critique, or wishing to be?)
Has this been established in every instance? Or is some of this "bashing" actually "fair comment", however unwelcome it might be?

"They bash the whole religion, not seeing that it actually helps people become better people. "
Well, Matthew 7:2 has "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

If the criterion for weighing a religion was "well, a lot of people find it comforts and helps them, encouraging to be better people", then there would indeed be less room for objecting to much of modern Christianity.
But is that the measure by which Christianity measures or judges other religions? I don't think so.
I really don't think so.
So why should I allow that standard to be a mark of approval for Christianity?
Christianity uses a tougher standard..." is it absolutely and completely and uniquely the truth?"
And answers "No" to every single religion or faith save itself.
That's fine, if that is what is desired.
But that will then be the measure by which I check Christianity.

And though there are differences of opinion (there's only human judgement in play after all)
I find Christianity falls, regarded by the same standard by which it fails all other belief systems.

But given there are these differences of opinion about a single universe, not all views and beliefs can be correct.
(disposing of the concept of "all beliefs are valid and equivalent doesn't take long)
Discussion about these seems a valid activity, with no need for acrimony or personal attacks.
The exception seems to come with people who cannot allow the slightest possibility of their being mistaken in their current position or world-view.

I've had to dump my core and central beliefs twice so far in my life, as information and evidence accrued to show i was holding a position that was actually indefensible or inconsistent with the observable world.
No, neither time was fun, but those times were positive.
I may have to do it again. I think it unlikely, but I've thought that before.

Locutus said:

debate is not strife, though. it's debate.

do you not want to see indoctrinated ideas challenged? ESPECIALLY ones which have never been challenged before? don't you want to make sure we're not perpetuating dark mischief because we were too afraid to ask questions?

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You miss my point entirely. Im not getting into it either friend, been there, i know the end of it.

Extraneous said:

You miss my point entirely. Im not getting into it either friend, been there, i know the end of it.

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I don't view debate on these issues as a negative, I guess. Not even when Christians are in the majority and are 'bashing' atheism. It's still very welcome, and to my mind, important.

Locutus said:

I don't view debate on these issues as a negative, I guess. Not even when Christians are in the majority and are 'bashing' atheism. It's still very welcome, and to my mind, important.

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You are an unbeliever, why would you think any differently? I dont expect you to stop debating over things because i know that you dont know any better.

Extraneous said:

You are an unbeliever, why would you think any differently? I dont expect you to stop debating over things because i know that you dont know any better.

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So if I 'knew better', I would stop challenging religious dogmas?

Locutus said:

So if I 'knew better', I would stop challenging religious dogmas?

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No, because debate is actually the result of bad religious dogma, The apostle paul said that debate is the result of heresy. Not in those exact words, but thats pretty much what he meant

See. Galatians 5 makes much sense after reading this. See, mans wisdom requires endless debates and God has made mans wisdom foolish. Greeks sought after wisdom, and Jews looked for signs, but God instead gave them the cross as both a sign and wisdom. Mans wisdom will never see it because its proud and God despises pride, and people seeking signs as proof will never see it either. Only by Gods spirit can a person see it. Only a humbled person, truly seeking God can see its value. Paul urges his followers to humble themselves, and walk in the spirit just as God teaches us to. Only then will they see the truth. These Christians in this scripture are believers, but they are infants in Christ who haven't yet learned to walk in the spirit.



1 Corinthians 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11 My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power..

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[d]