Why do you pray?

[Chris†opher Paul]

I pray to primarily worship God and to strengthen our relationship.

I believe that God is ultimately in control of everthing, and that our attempts to alter what happens in this world, is actually futile. In fact, I think that everything has already happened from God's perspective, since He is outside of time.

I believe God likes us to pray so that He can be worshipped, but again, what will happen will happen.

Thoughts?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I pray to primarily worship God and to strengthen our relationship.

I believe that God is ultimately in control of everthing, and that our attempts to alter what happens in this world, is actually futile. In fact, I think that everything has already happened from God's perspective, since He is outside of time.

I believe God likes us to pray so that He can be worshipped, but again, what will happen will happen.

Thoughts?

I think that there are things that we could receive, sicknesses that can be healed, people that can be saved, directly related to our prayer. Otherwise, our petitionary prayer is meaningless, since God is going to do it anyway.

And God works WITHIN time, not outside of it. That idea is Neo-Platonic, and not found in the Bible. (Although God does know the infinite future and infinite past...)

 

[Pauline]

Absolutely agree on the praise. But I believe this is only one aspect. There's also confession and thanks.

Even still I think it goes further than that. If we don't talk to our friends and family regularly, relationships break down. I can't help but think that our relationship with God is the same. The more often we "talk" to Him the better.

And finally I think prayer encourages us to put God first in our lives. If we bring ALL things to God in prayer, it's got to be fairly hard not to have him as a central focus of your life.

But this is just all from my experience.

God Bless

Pauline

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Interesting, thanks.

Christian prayer has been shown scientifically to help sick people recover, even though the sick person doesn't know about the prayer.

But God already knows that we will pray for that person, right? In fact, He knows what everyone will do throughout their entire lives, before they are even born, right? And His Will, will be done, as long as it doesn't effect free-will, right?

 

[Seraphiel]

s0uljah wrote:

I pray to primarily worship God and to strengthen our relationship.

You hit the nail on the head there s0uljah

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I pray to primarily worship God and to strengthen our relationship.

I believe that God is ultimately in control of everthing, and that our attempts to alter what happens in this world, is actually futile. In fact, I think that everything has already happened from God's perspective, since He is outside of time.

I believe God likes us to pray so that He can be worshipped, but again, what will happen will happen.

Thoughts?

Prayer, as you seem to be using the word, is a broad enough generalization that I would have to say I agree with what you've said. I also believe that prayer is just one means by which God affects His Will in our lives.

Repentence is one form of prayer that seems to alter our situation, to the extent that it alters the way we respond to that situation. An example of this might be if we were to lose our job and then we broke down and responded in an ungodly way to the situation. The correct thing to do at that point would be to repent for our ungodly attitude, ask God to change our hearts to seek after His Will and learn from the experience. We could pray, and pray again, and we still might not have a job. Our situation hasn't necessarily changed, however, our attitude has. This is strengthening to our faith, and therefore, as you said, "our relationship with God."

As far as God doing things regardless of our prayer I think this is manifested in many ways. We could pray over a sick friend and they might not get better. They may even still die, despite our fervent, prayerful vigil. Some would say this was due to a lack of faith. I would say it was simply not God's Will that that person recover.

Also, God often blesses us in ways we never, nor would we ever, have prayed for. Alot of this is due to our limited knowledge of God's purpose for a specific trial in our life and how that tends to be our focus, instead of remaining focused on the goal of our faith, our salvation. Additionally, the blessings God brings into our lives aren't always received in a godly way. There are some difficult people I deal with on a daily basis and though I normally don't think of those people as a blessing in my life, they truly are. They are a blessing because they are what God brought into my life to conform me to the image of His Son. If I complain about my circumstances I am essentially saying that I don't believe that I need what the Creator has brought into my life, as if I know more than He. This sinful mindset does nothing for my spiritual maturity except show me later how I shouldn't act in the future, which I guess, is actually maturation.

God bless.

 

[Ben Reid]

Originally posted by s0uljah
I pray to primarily worship God and to strengthen our relationship.

I believe that God is ultimately in control of everthing, and that our attempts to alter what happens in this world, is actually futile. In fact, I think that everything has already happened from God's perspective, since He is outside of time.

Amen!

I like a quote by Kierkegaard on prayer.

"Prayer does not change God, but it changes him who prays."

 

[Ben Reid]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson


I think that there are things that we could receive, sicknesses that can be healed, people that can be saved, directly related to our prayer. Otherwise, our petitionary prayer is meaningless, since God is going to do it anyway.

I would tend to agree here ... intercessory prayer must in some way have an effect on the way God interacts with the world or it is kinda pointless praying for God's intervention (though of course prayer does change the one who prays -- see quote by Kierkegaard above.)

I'll look up what the Bible has to say on intercessory prayer and get back to you ... what do you believe it has to say on this issue?

And God works WITHIN time, not outside of it. That idea is Neo-Platonic, and not found in the Bible. (Although God does know the infinite future and infinite past...)

Do you think the idea that God works WITHIN time is to be found in the Bible? Is God not separate and distinct from His creation? And thus separate and distinct from the laws which govern His creation?

If God is "restricted" by time, how could He do things like answer and listen to everyone's prayer at once?

 

[Ben Reid]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Interesting, thanks.

Christian prayer has been shown scientifically to help sick people recover, even though the sick person doesn't know about the prayer.

Yeah, good point, I've read about some independant studies which have shown these type of results.

But God already knows that we will pray for that person, right? In fact, He knows what everyone will do throughout their entire lives, before they are even born, right? And His Will, will be done, as long as it doesn't effect free-will, right?

Good question! This issue ties in with the issue of free will and omniscience and whether they are incompatible or not -- which really opens a can of worms Now you've done it Maybe this deserves a separate thread of its own?

Do you believe in pre-destination?

 

[ZiSunka]

I pray to commune with God.

Main Entry: 1com·mune
Pronunciation: k&-'myün
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): com·muned; com·mun·ing
Etymology: Middle English, to converse, administer Communion, from Middle French comunier to converse, administer or receive Communion, from Late Latin communicare, from Latin
Date: 15th century
transitive senses : TALK OVER, DISCUSS <have more to commune -- Shakespeare>
intransitive senses
1 : to receive Communion
2 : to communicate intimately <commune with nature>

 

[Gerry]

I do not believe in pre-destination but I do believe in election and they are different things.

And yes God is omniscient, and is well aware of what will be before we pray.

Yes prayer is for worship and to strengthen our relationship, but there is more.

Even though our prayers change nothing so far as God is concerned they do change US. In that sense they change "things".

When we spend time in prayer, as you will notice it changes our attitude and we "feel" differently. When our attitude changes we see things in a different light and we are able to see solutions to problems we did not see before and we are more receptive to the things God is already doing.

It is because of and through our prayers that God is able to effect change in our lives. It is one of the reasons I think that God COMMANDS us to pray and to pray without ceasing.

It all begins with the so called "sinner's prayer". That is nothing more, to us, than a change in our attitude, towards God and our sins. Through that change in attitude, God is able to effect a change in our position.

Prayer will always remain to a certain degree a mystery to us, in this present age. But one thing it definitely is to us, is a privilege. Just to think we are able to speak directly to the Great Almighty Creator of all things in the same manner as we would to our own earthly father.

What an awesome blessing to consider!

 

[Blackhawk]

"I do not believe in pre-destination but I do believe in election and they are different things."

but is not predestination a term directly from the Bible itself?

 

[ZiSunka]

predestination is different from fatalism.

Predestination is the belief that God has a plan for our lives, the plan for us to become intimate with Christ.

Fatalism is the belief that people are helpless against God's chosen destiny.

Predestination allows man to be an instrument of God's will.
Fatalism requires man to be God's puppet.

A lot of people mix up the two terms. Predestination is in the Bible, fatalism is not.

 

[Gerry]

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:28

As ypu can see from this verse predestination refers to the "elect", for a specific purpose, and has nothing to do with anyone being predestined for doom.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Gerry
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:28

As ypu can see from this verse predestination refers to the "elect", for a specific purpose, and has nothing to do with anyone being predestined for doom.

As I understand this verse it means that God chose before time and creation who would be His elect. As the verse says, the elect were predestined to "something." That "something" is "to be conformed to the image of His Son." If He did not predestine the non-elect for the same purpose, then it was for a different purpose. I think that purpose is shown in the following:

Rom 9:17,18
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose (the purpose is stated after the comma) I have raised you up, (right here) that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

Let just say, hypothetically, that God has no specific purpose in mind for the non-elect but rather, He just leaves them to whatever they could accomplish on their own. As you said, the verse doesn't specifically say anyone is predestined for doom. However, consider this: The fallen man is unrighteous and incapable of deviating from that nature by the power of their own "will." In other words, they can't change on their own. God must intervene or they are destined for hell. Since God knows this, and doesn't change their hearts, is it His Will that they be left to their fallen nature? Of course. Nothing happens outside of the Will of God. And, since God knows their nature before they're even born and does not change their nature, they are destined for hell before they are born. Now, I don't know how you define predestined, but "to have your destiny set beforehand" pretty much sums it up in my opinion. The only thing fallen man could accomplish without God's help is sinning. So even by not doing anything, man's fallen nature separates him from God in a way that he can not reconcile and is therefore destined for hell.

God bless.

 

[Ben Reid]

And yes God is omniscient, and is well aware of what will be before we pray.

What if I pray that God will not be aware of what will be before I pray

Even though our prayers change nothing so far as God is concerned they do change US. In that sense they change "things".

Amen.

When we spend time in prayer, as you will notice it changes our attitude and we "feel" differently. When our attitude changes we see things in a different light and we are able to see solutions to problems we did not see before and we are more receptive to the things God is already doing.

Amen. I have to be careful sometimes because it is much easier to pray for someone than to actually do something for them (Lewis said something along these lines, can't dig up the quote ATM).

It is because of and through our prayers that God is able to effect change in our lives. It is one of the reasons I think that God COMMANDS us to pray and to pray without ceasing.

It all begins with the so called "sinner's prayer". That is nothing more, to us, than a change in our attitude, towards God and our sins. Through that change in attitude, God is able to effect a change in our position.

Amen. Starting to sound like a Rally Meeting here

Prayer will always remain to a certain degree a mystery to us, in this present age. But one thing it definitely is to us, is a privilege. Just to think we are able to speak directly to the Great Almighty Creator of all things in the same manner as we would to our own earthly father.

What an awesome blessing to consider!

Awesome alright. Even the word awesome doesn't do justice The fact the we can have a direct channel of communication to the Omniscient, Infinite, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Transcendent, Illimitable, Absolute Creator of the Universe is beyond our wildest dreams.

Thank you Mighty God!

 

[Ben Reid]

Since I'm too lazy to write my thoughts on predestination for myself this late Friday night, I thought I'd do a copy and past job from http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/Biblequestions/predestination.htm.

--

Is it true that the New Testament teaches that some individuals are predestined for salvation and others for eternal perdition?


The question of predestination has been discussed for centuries in the Christian church. Its discussion raises such issues as human freedom, God's sovereignty, and the relationship between those two. Some commentators, in order to preserve human freedom, limit God's sovereignty in some form. Others make a special effort to emphasise God's sovereignty and thereby sacrifice human freedom. And still others attempt to preserve both through intricate theological argumentation.
I suggest that we begin with a study of the word "predestination." Since most of the argumentation is based on passages found in the New Testament, I will limit my comments to them.
The noun "predestination" isn't used in the New Testament. What we find is the verb "predestine" (Greek, proorizo, "decide upon beforehand"). An examination of the six verses in which the verb is used reveals the following.
1. God's act of predestination and eternity: The divine decision is said to have taken place "before the ages" (1 Cor. 2:7).* This expression probably designates the time before the creation of the world. The implication is that in the divine decision God wasn't influenced by any of His creatures, because it was made before they existed. The emphasis is on divine freedom.
2. God's predestination and His divine plan: Whatever God predetermines isn't the result of an accidental decision; He had a plan, and those events formed part of it. Ephesians 1:11 states that what happened took place "according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will." This purpose or plan was conceived in the divine mind, was willed by Him, and was worked out in history according to that will. The foundation and motivating force of the plan is God's love (verse 5). This indicates that the plan was intended to be for the benefit of His creatures.
3. God's predestination and Christ: What Jesus experienced in the hands of Herod, Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel was what God's hand and "plan had predestined to take place" (Acts 4:28). Notice that God didn't predetermine the evil actions of God's enemies, but the suffering of His Son in their hands. God doesn't have to move people to do evil, because it's natural for sinners to practice evil. Yet He uses even their evil to further His plan of salvation.
Romans 8:29 seems to suggest that Jesus was also predestined by God to be "the first-born among many brethren." The incarnation of the Son of God is part of the divine plan configured in eternity. He was going to be one of us and in the process was going to make us His brothers and sisters.
4. God's predestination and believers: There are certain specific things that God predetermined for His people. He established that His wisdom, revealed in the person of Christ, be "for our glorification" (1 Cor. 2:7). This isn't something that God perhaps will do for us, but rather something that He has determined to do for us. We will be glorified through Christ.
God has also predestined us to be adopted as His children only through Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:5). This is a nonnegotiable for God. He acted one-sidedly creating a way for our adoption to the heavenly family before we existed. In addition, the plan includes God's intention to conform us to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). This is His plan for those who love Him. Our Lord's predetermined plan is to transform us.
5. God predetermined everything related to salvation: With respect to the salvation of His people God didn't leave anything to chance. Predestination, based on His foreknowledge, once put into effect reaches us as a call for salvation. The acceptance of the call leads to justification and to our final glorification at the Second Coming (verse 30). There is no power on earth that can alter God's plan for us except our rejection of it.
Predestination is a good word. The use of the verb indicates that it designates God's unalterable plan for the salvation of His people through the incarnation and death of our Saviour. It knows only one positive use, and thus we can't construct with this verb a doctrine of double predestination.

________

*Bible references in this article are from the Revised Standard Version.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Ben Reid
God has also predestined us to be adopted as His children only through Jesus Christ (Eph. 1:5). This is a nonnegotiable for God. He acted one-sidedly creating a way for our adoption to the heavenly family before we existed. In addition, the plan includes God's intention to conform us to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). This is His plan for those who love Him. Our Lord's predetermined plan is to transform us.

God predetermined everything related to salvation: With respect to the salvation of His people God didn't leave anything to chance. Predestination, based on His foreknowledge, once put into effect reaches us as a call for salvation. The acceptance of the call leads to justification and to our final glorification at the Second Coming (verse 30). There is no power on earth that can alter God's plan for us except our rejection of it.

I'm a little confused as to which side of the debate the article seems to endorse. It says God "acted one-sidedly creating a way for our adoption to the heavenly family before we existed" and that He "predetermined EVERYTHING related to salvation" and that He "didn't leave anything to chance." That part is clear to me as well. The ambiguity of "the acceptance of the call leads to justification and to our final glorification at the Second Coming" with regard to this timeless debate is where I get confused as to the article's stance on the issue. Who is responsible for us accepting God's plan. Is it His irresistable grace or is it due to some remnant of holiness left in us after the Fall that allows us to escape the bondage of our sinful nature and choose a righteous path? It seems contradictory to say "this purpose or plan was conceived in the divine mind, was willed by Him, and was worked out in history ACCORDING TO THAT WILL" and that God's plans is "designated as unalterable" but then say "there is no power on earth that can alter God's plan for us EXCEPT our rejection of it."

You either believe it's either "unalterable" or you think that "our rejection" of God's plan can alter it. I personally find the concept of a created being's ability to "alter" or "reject" God's unalterable plan a bit presumptuous.

These truths become evident if you don't try and apply specific events to them. If it happens, it's God's Will. If it's His Will, it happens. If it doesn't happen, it wasn't His Will that it happen. If it isn't His Will that something happen, it doesn't happen. Seems simple enough to me. The consciencous objections come into play when we apply these truths to specific events that we don't understand how they fit into a "loving" God's eternal plan. For instance, the tragedy of September 11th. I would say that was a terrible event. However, I also know that those acts of terrorism, while not commited by God, are definitely part of His plan. What is His sanctifying purpose in these types of events? Only He knows. All we can do is trust that He is greater than any evil His creation could commit and that He will work it to the good.

The word "omnibenevolent" is thrown around as if it's got some biblical support. That's all fine and good as long as we don't try to fit God into our limited perception of what is "good" and "bad." The minute we assume we understand the fullness of a specific events repercussions upon all time we are deluding ourselves. All we can do is trust Him. We can grieve, but let's not do so as if He's deserted us. He never will.

God bless.

 

[jimigold]

Has this gone off the subject???

I pray to primarily worship God and to strengthen our relationship.

Yes, but secondarily i just pray to have a conversation with God. I feel like it's having a talk with a friend. Call me crazy, but it's nice sometimes to have a discussion about how the day went when lying in bed b4 sleep.I really like it, and of course because you are acting like close friends you really can become close friends.

Do i just talk to myself or does anyone else agree??

 

[psycmajor]

I pray to God because He is my constant, truest Friend. No one can compare to Him. He will never leave me nor forsake me. I need Him for hope. I need Him to reach down and restore the perfect relationship we were supposed to have until there was the first sin. I need Him to survive. I can't do anything without him.