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Why do you have to believe in the trinity to be saved?

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Hoghead1

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Yes, but "implicit" is just that: implicit. It is not a clear affirmation of teh Trinity, suggestive maybe, but not definite.
Later additions or subtractions from Scripture are always suspect in my book. They mean someone has tampered with or bludgeoned the original text to suit their biases. If the addition is divinely inspired, then what is the situation with the original, which omitted that passage? Was it also divinely inspired and then, for some reason, God decided it wasn't good enough and felt something else needed be added? Should we be open to the possibility that Scripture maybe be modified today?
 
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Commander Xenophon

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Ok, lets review the facts:

  1. You claimed the New Testament does not contain the word "substance" or other Trinitarian terminology. It does; it also features prosopon. These are the two most important terms in Triadology and the only creedal terms; hypostasis and the East Syriac equivalent qnume are important for theological study, but they are not in the creeds or in the Bible, and are not required to understand the Trinity.
  2. Your argument about the Trinitarians has the effect of implying that they are all Nestorians; it was Nestorius who was obsessed with a Hellenic separation of the divine and human, and it was St. Cyril who insisted they be brought together.
On Chalcedon, I am a Chalcedonian but I have come to believe the Oriental Orthodox who reject it are fully Orthodox. Usually its easier to explain the Trinity to an unbeliever using Chalcedonian terminology, but I believe Chalcedonian and Miaphysite theology is fully compatible and has been since the Fifth Ecumenical Council (I have to thank my colleague Wgw for persuading me of this, although I disagree with him that the schism is non-existant due to it being uncanonical).

If you read the Theopaschite arguments of the Oriental Orthodox fathers, I think you will find something that will clarify your understanding of this position. Read Severus of Antioch in particular, or the modern summary Orthodox Christology by Fr. Peter Farrington, available on iBooks.

Then, you can see how the Chalcedonians came around to embrace a Theopaschite view by reading the text of St. Justinian's hymn Ho Monogenes, which follows the Second Antiphon in the Orthodox divine liturgy:

Only-begotten Son and immortal Word of God, who for our salvation didst will to be incarnate of the holy Theotokos and Ever-virgin Mary, who without change didst become man and wast crucified, O Christ our God, trampling down death by death, who art One of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit: save us.
This little hymn is one of the best and clearest expressions of Orthodox Christology, amd refutes entirely I believe your argument that the Fathers were driven mainly by "classical theism." What you call "classical Theism," which is really just Hellenic proto-Gnostic henotheisrkc or monotheistic philosophy, would not permit God to, without change, become man and be crucified.
 
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Commander Xenophon

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That is certainly not the case. The exact opposite is true: human beings cannot live virtuously without God; they can practice the virtues, but they are always overshadowed by sin. The only hope we have of either living a truly virtuous live, like St. Basil, who invented the hospital, or his namesake St. Basil the Blessed, the "fool for Christ" who called Ivan the Terrible to repentence and prevented him from engaging in some of the more, well, terrible things he wanted to do, is to believe in Christ and receive the Holy Spirit. And even if we are not able to pull out of sin to that degree, our only sure hope of forgiveness is still to believe in Christ and receive the Holy Spirit. Otherwise we will remain, to use a Calvinist term, unregenerate, although not totally depraved; Calvin was in error when he denied that people lack the free will to come to God of their own volition but are instead foreordained to damnation.

Membership in the Christian Church does not require active intellectual ascent, because infants and mentally disabled people can be members of the Church. But we must be united with the Church to receive the Holy Spirit and experience Theosis, which in turn allows us to be resurrected into glory instead of into damnation.

The Orthodox believe God is a consuming fire; being in His presence without having become prepared through the grace conferred by the Church, through theosis, something which is helped by ascesis, would be torture, whereas being in His presence will be ever more blissful according to those who have received Theosis.

This is not Christian Imperialism. This is simply the ordimary means of Salvation. The Orthodox believe that while we can easily know who is a member of the Church, it is much harder to say who is not. We believe that righteous men of other faiths can be saved by special acts of dovine grace, amd are more likely to be saved then Christian hypocrites, who practice a nomonal faith but refuse the prompting of the Holy Spirit to engage in good and charitable works.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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So you think you comprehend God do you? Job thought as you do and God rebuked hm for his assumptions too. So next you're going to tell me Christ is a ventriloquist and magician? Perhaps you can enlighten us on how Christ called Himself a son? You also claimed " there is no reason to suppose they were three different Persons in three different places." God's word states quite specifically that this WAS the case. This is another example.....


Matthew 17:5
While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud shadowed them: and behold, there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is that my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear him.


Who was Christ speaking to here...

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama-sabachthani? which is by interpretation, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


And again who was Christ praying to in the Garden?

Mark 14:36
And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee: take away this cup from me: nevertheless not that I will, but that thou wilt, be done.

And Who was speaking to who here in Genesis?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Gen 11:7 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:

Isa 6:8 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
 
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tulipbee

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The elects has the abilities to see the Trinity
 
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Commander Xenophon

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Yes, but "implicit" is just that: implicit. It is not a clear affirmation of teh Trinity, suggestive maybe, but not definite.

It is atrongly suggestive to the point where modern dynamic equivalence based translations like the NIV would take a similiar liberty with the text.

The Comma Johanneum simply makes the implicit reference explicit.

Later additions or subtractions from Scripture are always suspect in my book. They mean someone has tampered with or bludgeoned the original text to suit their biases.

So you would leave out the vital Gospel message of the Adultery pericope, and have our Lord not say "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"

If the addition is divinely inspired, then what is the situation with the original, which omitted that passage? Was it also divinely inspired and then, for some reason, God decided it wasn't good enough and felt something else needed be added?

Here is what I would say to that: the Comma Johanneum can be viewed as divinely inspired because the Trinity is a true doctrine of the Apostles, and an unknown pious scribe added it as a gloss to the Latin manuscripts of the Vetus Latina in order to make the Trinitarian reference more explicit, probably around the time of Paul of Samosata, the decadent bishop of Antioch, who was the first to really attack the Trinity, a few decades before Arius.

You have to understand how divine inspiration works. The Church, as a whole, is protected by God fro, the gates of Hell (Matthew 16:18), and the Church wrote the New Testament, and later edited it. At firat, the Church did not even have a New Testament; the Gospel was delivered orally, which is why the Pauline epistles, the oldest part of the New Testament, refer to it in the singular. Then, so that this oral history would not be lost, Apostles Matthew and John, and the scribes Luke and Mark, who had previously travelled with Ss. Paul and Peter (and the Cenacle was in St. Mark's house) wrote down from memory their experiences and what they had heard from their fellow Apostles, lest the oral history not be altered. Some other people also wrote pious expressioms of their understanding of the faith, like the Shepherd of Hermas.

I believe there were many more of these accounts than we presently have, but most are lost; several of them I believe were acquired by Gnostics and mutilated to suit the Gnostic heresy, for example, the Gospel of Thomas, which reads like a Synoptoc but has clear Gnostic interpolations, or the Odes of Solomon (one Patristic figure says the Gospel lf Thomas was written by Thomas the wicked disciple of Mani; I used to think he was talking about the sayings gospel recovered at Nag Hammadi. but I realized he was referring to the very perverse Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

There is an implicit error of Process Theology in your statement. God does not change His mind; when the Old Testament uses language like this, it is metaphorical and in the context of allegory. God is immutable and in all respects perfect.

The Holy Scriptures are divinely inspired because the holy prophets and apostles who composed them had direct access either through private revelation or direct experience (especially in the case of the Apostles) of God. So, the early Church started with just the Old Testament. Then the Apostles wrote the genuine inspired canon. Unfortunately, much of this was lost or corrupted by Gnostics during the Roman persecutions, although as early as St. Irenaeus, even before St. Irenaeus, we find some mention of our current canonical scripture.

When the Church finally came to be at peace during the reign of Constantinople, the process began of figuring out which books were genuine articles, written by the Apostles, and which ones were not. The main test of canonicity among the fourth century fathers was whether or not the Apostles actually wrote the book, not whether or not it was divinely inspired. The Church of Alexandria supplied fifty codices to Rome while St. Alexander of Alexandria was Patriarch, on the request of the Roman archbishop. Meanwhile, St. Constantine asked Eusebius of Caesarea, who publically admired the Emperor and died leaving unfinished a comprehensive biography of the liberator of Christians, to produce another fifty or so Bibles for use in the churches of New Rome, Constantinople, which he was building. Eusebius wrote in a letter a list of books he thought were canonical, but this list was not ultimately accepted.

A new translation of the New Testament into Syriac was made, the Peshitta, to replace the Diatessaron, the Gospel harmomy which had been dominant in the Syriac speaking churches of the Prient, but which the Fathers mistrusted owing to its authorship by Tatian, a known Gnostic heresiarch. This initially contained only those works which were most uncontroversial; all of the disputed books were omitted (they were later added to the West Syriac Peshitto, but not to the East Syriac version). St. Jerome expressed his own opinions.

Ultimately it was St. Athanasius who settled the matter, as you well know, in his 39th Paschal Encyclical. His determination as to which books in the New Testament were authentic and apostolic and which ones were not became universally accepted, and was the basis for the Decretum Gelasianum of 493, which defined permanently the canonical New Testament as far as the Church of Rome was concerned, and prohibited the use of any other books. This canon was not universally binding, but was a local canon specific to the Roman Church, but in general all churches recognize the Athanasian canon (the Ethiopians append to their Old Testament the Didascalia, one of two ancient first century manuals of church discipline, along with the Didache, the Armenians include 3 Corinthians, but do not read it liturgically).

So that is what happened. The Church wrote the New Testsment; specifically the Apostles who established the current church as the successor to the dying religion of Second Temple Judaism, which due to the destruction of the Temple became extinct during the course of its compostion. Then, after a proliferation of Gnostic psuedepigrapha and forgeries, the Church edited the Bible to determine what was divinely inspired. There are disagreements between the Apostolic churches and indeed the Protestants, particularly on the Old Testament, and these mirror similiar arguments from the fourth century. But ultimately, each local Church had to decide for itself what New Testament books were to be accepted, and the Athanasian Canon was definitive.

Now, the primary test for canonicity was apostolic authenticity; 1 Clement and the Shepherd of Hermas were excluded not because it was thought they were not divinely inspired, but because it was known their authors were not Apostles.

However, when it came to the actual Bibles that wound up being written and later printed, and used liturgically in each Church, this was a decision that had to be made. All of the Apostolic churches wound up accepting the validity of the Comma Johanneum even if they left it out of their text. Likewise, they all accepted the validity of the Adultery Pericope, and Mark 16:9-20.

It is the Church which legitimized Scripture, not vice versa; Scripture was written by and for the Church. However, because of the binding force of tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15), once the Church came to a general agreement on what was canonical. and also, what the contents of each book should contain (specifically, all of the Apostolic churches, even the Coptic Church and the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, agreed on the Byzantine Text Type or the Majority Text, and rejected the so-called Alexandrian text type or Minority Text), the matter became closed.

And while it was the early Church which gave Scripture its legitimacy, since the matter of what is Scripture is settled, Scripture now also grants the Church legitmacy, because Scripture is now a part of Holy Tradition; the Church has established a reliable, canonical Bible, with extreme difficulty, and this Bible, now that it exists, in turn authenticates the Church.

Should we be open to the possibility that Scripture maybe be modified today?

Scripture is being modified today, illicitly. Some very recent dynamic equivalence translations like the latest New International Version have, in the interests of political correctness, taken spectacular liberties with the text. The Jehovahs Witnesses published a Bible in which John 1:1 was modified to suit their dogma. And Hal Lessig and a group of postmodern and emergent theologians, many of whom had previously been involved in the Jesus Seminar under Robert Funk, produced A New New Testament, which combines a liberal, postmodern, dynamic equivalence translation of the canonical New Testament with a liberal, postmodern, dynamic equivalence translation of an assortment Gnostic scriptures, which is hillarious, because while on the one hand they distorted the canonical New Testament making it less Orthodox, on the other, they distorted the Gnostic texts making them less Gnostic and in some cases causing them to read as being more Orthodox and less bizarre (especially in the case of The Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the Apocryphon of John).

It should be stressed that several dynamic equivalence Bibles take liberties with the text which exceed by a massive degree the gloss provided by the Comma Johanneum. The Living Bible, for example. If I were to quixotically set out to compose an Orthodox Bible based on Dynamic Equivalence (which I do not believe would be very Orthodox), I could among other things translate "I and the father are one" as "I am of one substance with the Father," and my change would be far less radical than those made in many recent Bible editions.

So, in answer to your question, scripture can be modifed today. However, you asked "Maybe." So, may scripture be legitimately modified today? No, because the canon is closed and the question of what texts to use was settled in the first millenium. All of the apostolic churches, the Orthodox, the Roman Catholics and the Assyrians agreed on the Athanasian Canon, a more or less comparable Old Testament canon based on the contents of the Septuagint, and the use of the Byzantine text type. These scriptural texts were then written into the lectionaries of the churches. Because the canon is settled, one could not add a new book or delete an existing book, or add or delete verses, with amy legitimacy, because Scripture as it exists is a matter of Holy Tradition. One of the last books to be agreed as canonical was Revelations, but it contains a warning against adding or removing anything from "this book," which may be read as applying only to it, but which perhaps piety should compel us to regard all of sacred scripture with.

I myself will therefore not accept as canonical any book not included in the canon of at least one Apostolic Church, and in the case where only one included it (1 Enoch in the Ethiopian Church, for instance), I read it with extreme caution.

This does not mean that new devotional or religious literature cannot be written and regarded as divinely inspired. I believe the Epistles of Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp, and most of the Patristic corpus, is divinely inspired; I believe the Sayings of the Desert Fathers is divinely inspired, and I believe the Philokalia is divinely inspired. I also believe the ancient hymns and liturgies of the Church are divinely inspired, but subject to change. These works however are subordinate to Scripture, but they all collectively form a part of one united, divinely inspired Holy Tradition, at the center of which is the Gospel as narrated by the four evangelists, surrounded by the other books of the Holy Bible, which is truly an ikon of the Word of God (when we venerate ikons of Orthodox saints who were Church Fathers, we kiss the Bibles they are depicted as carrying).

The only possible exception I can think of, which is really hypothetical: If one became stranded followimg some global cataclysm on a remote island with a small community of people and had no Bible, I guess in that case it would be permissible to try and write down a summary of the Bible from memory.
 
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Commander Xenophon

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The elects has the abilities to see the Trinity

Yes, and anyone can of their own free will open their heart to God's Grace and receive election, which is comditional on their baptism and fidelity to his commandments. I do not agree with TULIP, in part because I think by their own standards, Calvin, Knox, Cranmer and the other early Calvinists appear to be unregenerate reprobates; they do not display the grace whoch Calvinism suggests should characterize the elect.
 
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Four Angels Standing

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Three different entities sharing equal power is pagan. That is false doctrine.
You forget Deuteronomy 6:4 ? Or, Isaiah 45:5 ? How about Jesus statement in, John 12:45 as well as John 10:30? How about Luke 1:35?
Our God is one. His Holy Spirit empowers in this three dimensional space and is beheld as Jesus, who embodied his Holy Spirit at Baptism for all to see, while being conceived upon Mary by that Holy Spirit of God.

Imagining three different entities are in Heaven is a doctrine of tritheism, three gods and that is not in scripture.


 
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Four Angels Standing

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I agree. However, historically, many Christians have allowed faith to collapse into mere intellectual ascent to doctrine, as I pointed out in another post. All that matters to God is what you believe.
Sadly it begins to seem like people are being led to believe in the teachings of what men prefer to think needs correcting in God's word.
And this so as to comport with the contemporary world and its changing values. We see this happening when churches announce they've fallen away as the scriptures predicted and when they call sin good, and give license to unrepentant immorality having a rightful place in the church.
However, it is truly concerning when any church teaches those who seek the face of God and the truth of Christ that they must believe in the trinity in order to be saved.
And then they attempt to identify the trinity as three separate beings sharing in the power of God together. That's pagan. Reminiscent of a movement that's got some years on it now and known as, pagan christianity. Or, to be specific in some instances due to published works, christian witchcraft or, wicca.
 
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Four Angels Standing

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No it's not wrong. It's scriptural and scripture is right.
Remember that you're debating with one who said Jesus died on the cross and remained dead. Scripture isn't part of the doctrine you're attempting to discuss with one that believes such as that.
 
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tulipbee

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Free will is like a tv scam
 
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Butch5

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Yes, interpretation. It's pretty clear from the text there is nothing about the Trinity in the passage, but rather it speaks of Jesus Himself.

It's pretty obvious who has the agenda. That obscure version is what Jesus and the apostles used. If do a little research you'll find that the Masoretic text which is the text that most modern translations use only dates back to around the 700's A.D. and the manuscripts date back to around 1000 AD. The Septuagint was translated from a much older Hebrew text around 300-250 B.C. It is the text that was used throughout the Greek speaking world when the New Testament was written. All you have to do is look at the quotes in the NT from the OT that don't match the Masoretic text, yet matches the Septuagint. The Septuagint manuscripts we have available date back hundreds of year father than the manuscripts of the Masoretic text.

Here are a couple.

New Testament
Hebrews 1:6 ( KJV ) 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Deuteronomy 32:43

Masoretic text
Deuteronomy 32:43 ( KJV ) 43Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Where are the words, "And let all the angels of God worship him"?

Septuagint
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people.


New Testament
Hebrews 10:5 ( KJV ) 5Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

The writer of Hebrews quotes this verse from Psalm 40:6

Masoretic text
Psalms 40:6 ( KJV ) 6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Where are the words, " but a body hast thou prepared me:"? This is an important part to leave out since it speaks of the incarnation of Christ.

Septuagint
Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.


New Testament
1 Peter 4:18 ( KJV ) 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Peter quotes Proverbs 11:31

Masoretic text
Proverbs 11:31 ( KJV ) 31Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Septuagint
Proverbs 11:31 If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
 
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Butch5

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Are you aware that the Johannine comma only appears in few very late manuscripts? It's not original.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Your misrepresentation of other scriptures changes nothing that I posted about the Trinity. Now the question is are you a mormon that is claiming to be a Christian? The reason I ask is that you seem to believe that God is incapable of preserving His word and there are only a few cultic religions that deny the Triune God.
 
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BornAgainChristian1

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Sorry but it is you that is "interpreting" things that aren't being quoted as you claim

Deuteronomy 32:431599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
43 Ye nations, praise his people: for he will avenge the a]">[a]blood of his servants, and will execute vengeance upon his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.

Footnotes:
  1. Deuteronomy 32:43 Whether the blood of God’s people be shed for their sins or trial of their faith, he promiseth to revenge it.


I believe you proved my point here first you say it isn't found then you prove it is found in scripture.
 
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Butch5

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It's obvious from the logical fallacies that you don't understand debate. Poisoning the well, elephant hurling, and ad hominems don't help your argument in the least. You've yet to show anything that proves your doctrine. You tried with Isaiah 9 but as the Septuagint shows that is not what the passage actually says. If you'd like to present another passage we can address it too!
 
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Butch5

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That's interesting. If you go back and look at the passage again, you'll notice that I didn't add any words to the passage. You added words to your passage.



I believe you proved my point here first you say it isn't found then you prove it is found in scripture.

What I've shown is that Jesus and the apostles quoted from the Septuagint and not the Masoretic text.
 
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Judahs_Lion

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Of course they were.
What are we told about creation of the first man in Genesis? Chapter two verse seven?
God breathed into the Adam and he became a living soul. God is a spirit, the breath of God, the Bible itself is said to be God breathed. Created through the spirit of God come unto those to whom he would deliver his divine thoughts, words.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
This is my beloved son. Son of man! Born of woman, begat upon her by God and his Holy Spirit. The Dove, remembering symbolism in ancient Hebrew as that portraying the message of purity, love, tenderness, peace, hope.
"The spirit like a dove descending upon him." Mark 1:10.

Matthew 3:16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.


Luke 3:22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

God is a spirit -John 4:24 - not a dove. Jesus was the son of man and the son of God. Was he two people? Or was he one?



Let me ask you this. How many Gospels are there?
 
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