Why do you consider yourself a Seventh Day Adventist?

I don't think it is a part of the official beliefs though it is often preached.,....

Mankin said:

Adventism's problem with its soteriology is that it is deeply connected with its eschatology so much so that the two almost become the same thing. Adventism generally believes in mainstream soteriology yet its eschatology intertwines with it and creates a new doctrine. As we are all aware, it is part of the official adventist's beliefs that eventually everyone will have to convert to the SDA church or be lost. If Adventism removes the eschatology from their soteriology, the problem will be fixed. However, many traditionals would become extremely furious about such a change for one reason. Adventism would lose the power of its unique message. No longer would its message be necessary to save people. They would just become another denomination in the crowd. Traditional Adventists would refuse to accept such a condition, because they would lose the assurance of being God's true church. They would just become another meaniless devision in Christianity.

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dude, you bes wise beyond your years. word.

the irony being, that genuine soteriology DOES connect and intertwine inextricably with genuine eschatology, and in fact the culmination of the Mystery of God, what scripture refers to as the telos, perfectly consummates the marriage of the two, so to speak, in a living, breathing, vibrant reality called Christ in us, the hope of glory, manifest tangibly and viscerally in a select number at the apex (culmination) of linear time, of whom it may indeed be said that the day has dawned and the Daystar arisen in their hearts. (2 Peter 1:19) But these will not be those fashioning heavy plastic moral yokes by meticulously piling laws and requirements for every aspect of life, thought and being into the equation. These will instead be those of giant-sized hearts, intense, burning, passionate -- yet sober, careful, thoughtful -- those what bes great lovers of others in Him and on His behalf. Those who have truly learned to love their enemies to the point of laying down their own lives for them -- has scripture ever really given us any GREATER definition of what the character of God looks like?

Adventists come so close at times in serendipitous stumbling while remaining so far away in understanding. The whole notion of the character of Christ being reproduced in His people, for example, prior to the parousia -- what a profound insight indeed! Yet rather than recognizing the utter perfection delineated in the latter end of Matthew 5 as the template thereof, the SDAs seem to prefer debating how close one may come to swimming without breaking the sabbath, or whether eating cheese or wearing a broach once one "knows better" (SDA speak for having been indoctrinated in their peculiar form of life-encompassing legalism) will disqualify one from participation in the heavenly Kingdom Come. HOW they could fail to see this boggles the mind, considering Christ Himself not only offered it (Matthew 5:43-48) as the template of "perfection" [i.e., completion] but made it clear elsewhere (Matthew 24:11-13) that the great test in the end consisted of the ability to maintain compassionate love in the face of a spreading and ever-increasing iniquity). The word "iniquity" fascinates; it combines the concept of sin and wrongdoing with that of injustice and the foundation of all injustice: inequality. It bes not just on the side of the fence where people "eat and drink and rise up to play" but also on the side busy criticizing and condemning them -- in the name of Christ no less -- for doing so. Perhaps even more on that side busy with criticism than one might first imagine. LOVE, not the day on which we do church, constitutes the true seal of the Living God, with the "mark of the beast" conversely covering anything which exalts itself as a substitute thereof and imagines its rightful place to be God's throne.

Soteriology and eschatology? ... there bes one revelation of God in Jesus Christ, one Holy Spirit in whom we walk, one life we share as His body, one Creator God with One Plan in mind: to bring us all to completion individually and unity corporately, under Jesus Christ, one Lord, one Saviour. Everything else bes illusion, delusion, or distraction; no other truth exists but this.

I really don't consider myself to be an Adventist; more like a Christian who attends an Adventist church.

Windmill said:

Hi there

I am 17 years old, and struggling a little to understand the church as a whole in many regards. Please, do not let this question be considered as an attack on you.

When we ask someone, is that in the corner a chair, we must stop and think for a moment. Does it meet the requirements of a chair?

Now if we see in the corner this;



We will see that it doesn't meet the requirements, the definition, of a chair, so we will say no. Instead, it meets the requirements on a TV. It is something different, something new.

So when people say "I am a progressive Seventh Day Adventist" or something like that, I must wonder...

When do you go over the boundary? When, like how the TV isn't a chair, when in your theology can you not be classified as a Seventh Day Adventist anymore technically?

Why do you consider yourself a SDA, even if you don't follow/believe in the fundamentals? This is esepcially where my thoughts are lying here. If you do not believe in the very fundamentals, then how can you still be a Seventh Day Adventist?

I'm not saying you can't think/call yourself one, but I am saying that there must come a point where you are, no matter what you call and think, are no longer a SDA. So what stops you from tipping over the edge as a progressive/moderate etc.

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windmill what are struggling with exactly? is it just the different theology of the sda chruch . or is there something more

Joshua J. Daigle said:

I really don't consider myself to be an Adventist; more like a Christian who attends an Adventist church.

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Exactly, that's the same thing with me.

I think Adventism needs to take a closer look at the reasons behind the First Greak Awakening. People back then each proclaimed that their church was the only one which would obtain salvation.

However, the preachers during the Awakening like John Welsely taught that belonging to one certain denomination meant nothing. Having a relationship with Christ trumped such divisions.

It goes to far when it contradicts what we know to be truth shown to us by His prophets and His holy word... Adventists are a distinct group of people, we believe this to be God's end-time church... there will only be one end-time church so the different so-called adventists who are pro/mod are either wrong or the traditional adventists are wrong... I think if you really look at the difference between the teaching of the traditional adventist church and its offshoots you will know which is the true church. I have had friends who have fallen into the offshoot movements and I notice that it starts with trying to disclaim Ellen White as a prophet and leads to totally ignoring the bible... granted they don't do it outwardly but as far as I am concerned when you discover "new light" and because of this so-called "new light" you no longer are reading the bible like you should but have instead replaced it with so-called "christian" books which if studied in conjunction with the bible would be proven to be completely unbiblical... this is not new light, it is error.

I consider myself to be a traditional adventist because I believe in and follow the bible completely... mans traditions on death/rapture, the sabbath, hell, the mark of the beast etc have no place in the Bible... I want to follow what the Bible says alone... not what "Christians" say... if I did not firmly believe this was God's endtime church I wouldn't be here... I am no hypocrite and I wouldn't stay in a church I did not believe was teaching the truth.

For those of you on the edge... study the Bible, stay away from literature about how evil and wrong the Adventist church is... don't you think that if we are wrong and in error that God will enlighten this to you while you study? If anyone wants to study it out I am willing to spend time with you... I work alot but when I get time I would love to do that.

God bless everyone!

visio said:

It goes to far when it contradicts what we know to be truth shown to us by His prophets and His holy word... Adventists are a distinct group of people, we believe this to be God's end-time church... there will only be one end-time church so the different so-called adventists who are pro/mod are either wrong or the traditional adventists are wrong... I think if you really look at the difference between the teaching of the traditional adventist church and its offshoots you will know which is the true church. I have had friends who have fallen into the offshoot movements and I notice that it starts with trying to disclaim Ellen White as a prophet and leads to totally ignoring the bible... granted they don't do it outwardly but as far as I am concerned when you discover "new light" and because of this so-called "new light" you no longer are reading the bible like you should but have instead replaced it with so-called "christian" books which if studied in conjunction with the bible would be proven to be completely unbiblical... this is not new light, it is error.

I consider myself to be a traditional adventist because I believe in and follow the bible completely... mans traditions on death/rapture, the sabbath, hell, the mark of the beast etc have no place in the Bible... I want to follow what the Bible says alone... not what "Christians" say... if I did not firmly believe this was God's endtime church I wouldn't be here... I am no hypocrite and I wouldn't stay in a church I did not believe was teaching the truth.

For those of you on the edge... study the Bible, stay away from literature about how evil and wrong the Adventist church is... don't you think that if we are wrong and in error that God will enlighten this to you while you study? If anyone wants to study it out I am willing to spend time with you... I work alot but when I get time I would love to do that.

God bless everyone!

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bless your young heart.....

Windmill said:

Haha, you can read me!

Struggling with overall faith issues, how can I know God is there, what is this faith I have (that I cannot deny exists) built upon, etc etc, where is the physical evidence.

In the process, theological issues, outside of general leisure thought/reading have gone by the wayside. If I cannot understand the very basics of my faith, how can I start arguing semantics? Yet I must also confess I am struggling a bit with the theology of the church in areas, specifically the churches belief in EGW, infallible Bible, etc.

I also, on a social level, am not too impressed with the way Adventists around me seem to render every other religion/denomination worthless...

I have come to a far more real understanding of God, and his mercy, and of great he.. is. My love has deepened significantly, and I have come to understand what his salvation really means for me. It is amazing. The Adventist church does not embrace this I feel. It is truly so joyous yet the church as a whole seems to solemn and "exclusive"? That seems out of whack to me.

Then the liberals in my area seem so shallow!

I've come to realise that my experience with God better not be built upon others

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bless your young heart too.... continue on the path you are walking....

Windmill said:

I have come to a far more real understanding of God, and his mercy, and of great he.. is. My love has deepened significantly, and I have come to understand what his salvation really means for me. It is amazing. The Adventist church does not embrace this I feel. It is truly so joyous yet the church as a whole seems to solemn and "exclusive"? That seems out of whack to me.

Then the liberals in my area seem so shallow!

I've come to realise that my experience with God better not be built upon others

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Continue your forward journey. You are wonderfully made.

Welcome, Visio. I am very glad that you are here. I hope that you enjoy your time spent in this forum. I have a few questions about your post.

visio said:

It goes to far when it contradicts what we know to be truth shown to us by His prophets and His holy word.

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Can you share with us an example of a teaching that you believe contradicts what we know to be truth?

.. Adventists are a distinct group of people, we believe this to be God's end-time church...

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Do you believe that other churches are not? If so, why?

there will only be one end-time church

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What is an "end-time church" and why must there be only one?

so the different so-called adventists who are pro/mod are either wrong or the traditional adventists are wrong...

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Or perhaps each of them have missed certain things, and perhaps all of us have missed certain things. What did Paul mean in Romans 3 when he cited the passage that says that there is no one righteous and there is no one who understands?

I think if you really look at the difference between the teaching of the traditional adventist church and its offshoots you will know which is the true church.

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Do you believe that progressive SDAs view themselves as an "offshoot?"

I have had friends who have fallen into the offshoot movements and I notice that it starts with trying to disclaim Ellen White as a prophet and leads to totally ignoring the bible.

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Do you believe the phenominon that you've described is the ultimate fate for any person who doubts that Mrs. White's writings are authoritative?

this is not new light, it is error.

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Upon what basis do we determine what is truth and what is error?

I consider myself to be a traditional adventist because I believe in and follow the bible completely.

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Within the world today, are there any who are not traditional SDAs who also believe in and follow the Bible?

mans traditions on death/rapture, the sabbath, hell, the mark of the beast etc have no place in the Bible.

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Is the SDA position on the mark of the beast based upon the Scriptures or it is based upon man's teachings?

I want to follow what the Bible says alone.

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OK. So what does the Bible say about the mark of the beast?

if I did not firmly believe this was God's endtime church I wouldn't be here... I am no hypocrite and I wouldn't stay in a church I did not believe was teaching the truth.

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This seems rather harsh toward those who have questions and yet decide to remain, don't you think?

For those of you on the edge... study the Bible, stay away from literature about how evil and wrong the Adventist church is...

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This is interesting. If SDAism has the truth as you believe that it does, will that truth not stand up in the light of day?

don't you think that if we are wrong and in error that God will enlighten this to you while you study?

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Exactly. If you believe that the Spirit is capable of doing what Jesus promised He would do then is there any harm in reading and in exploring your beliefs so that you can better understand the source of your beliefs and/or the reasons why you believe as you do?

If anyone wants to study it out I am willing to spend time with you.

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Let's start with the subject of the mark of the beast. What do you believe with respect to this subject?

BFA

Windmill said:

Haha, you can read me!

Struggling with overall faith issues, how can I know God is there, what is this faith I have (that I cannot deny exists) built upon, etc etc, where is the physical evidence.

In the process, theological issues, outside of general leisure thought/reading have gone by the wayside. If I cannot understand the very basics of my faith, how can I start arguing semantics? Yet I must also confess I am struggling a bit with the theology of the church in areas, specifically the churches belief in EGW, infallible Bible, etc.

I also, on a social level, am not too impressed with the way Adventists around me seem to render every other religion/denomination worthless...

I have come to a far more real understanding of God, and his mercy, and of great he.. is. My love has deepened significantly, and I have come to understand what his salvation really means for me. It is amazing. The Adventist church does not embrace this I feel. It is truly so joyous yet the church as a whole seems to solemn and "exclusive"? That seems out of whack to me.

Then the liberals in my area seem so shallow!

I've come to realise that my experience with God better not be built upon others

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As Stormy said, "Bless your young heart."

I was exactly where you are now years ago. I woke up one day and had to ask myself why do I believe in the things that I do? I started asking questions, and didn't always like the answers that I received. I grew up as an Adventist, it was all that I knew, so when I started to discover things that I didn't agree with, it discouraged me. I admit that Ellen White is my biggest hang up. I don't mind that people look to her writings for wisdom, but I feel as though she has been elevated to a higher status than necessary. But it was the doubt in her writings that caused doubt in all other things. Pretty soon, I was disenfranchised with the Adventist church. It seemed as though the people in my church were more concerned whether or not you were a good Adventist rather than a saved, born-again Christian. Problem was, no other church/denomination felt right either. I took a while for me to discover that if I place my faith and hope in a person/church/denomination...whatever, that I will be disappointed. Even though there are things that I still disagree with within Adventism, my main focus is God, not the denomination. I stayed with the SDA church simply because I have found less to disagree about here than anywhere else. But I am a Christian first and foremost and a Adventist second...distant second. Don't allow people to discourage or confuse you. When in doubt, look it up. The truth will always be revealed when held against the revealing light of Scripture. Just keep praying, build yourself a strong relationship with God and He will take care of the rest.

And hey, at the end of the day if something is still bothering you, before you go to bed...just hand it over to God. He's gonna be up all night anyways.

Stay faithful and be blessed,
Joshua

Byfaithalone1 said:

Welcome, Visio. I am very glad that you are here. I hope that you enjoy your time spent in this forum. I have a few questions about your post.

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Thank you for the welcome! Been here for a little while just have limited time to post with my work and all...

Byfaithalone1 said:

Can you share with us an example of a teaching that you believe contradicts what we know to be truth?

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Truth is truth no matter who knows it or sees it... and the Bible is the only rule of faith for any Christian and that is what we as adventists claim.

We as traditional adventists believe Ellen White was inspired by God. Progressive adventists tend to disregard this to a certain degree or even disregard her completely. And I don't believe she is a prophet because traditional adventists say so, I have read her writings and I firmly believe they are inspired... just read her health books, there are secular doctors who have read her health books and were totally blown away that she pinpointed with unequivocal accuracy health principles and foods that heal and foods that harm, information that we are just beginning to realize today.


Progressive adventists hold to the idea that the SDA church is not or is not exclusively the remnant church...

Progressive adventists claim that the Mark of the Beast will not be the Sunday law. We as traditional adventists do believe it will be... I will prove this shortly.

Byfaithalone1 said:

Do you believe that other churches are not? If so, why?

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If there was more than one true church than there would be no truth cause all churches vary in their beliefs... when we start treading on this ground we soon give up our peculiar beliefs and what we used to believe as important now becomes unimportant.

The bible is clear that the end time church, those who are saved will "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ" -

2nd Corinthians 11:2 says:
“I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”

According to this there is only one true church... read the full context and you realize he is talking about the church and Christ.

I could go through and spend hours dictating bible verse after bible verse which prove who the true church is and who the mark of the beast is but I feel Doug has done a great job of this... if your earnest and want to know the truth then read this and tell me where biblically it errs...
http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStu...-Search-for-the-True-Church/SC/R/Default.aspx

Byfaithalone1 said:

What is an "end-time church" and why must there be only one?

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The bible speaks of the true church as a woman(singular), yet it speaks of the false churches as babylon and the daughters of babylon. If you study the bible you find no hint of there being multiple churches, the bible speaks of coming "out of babylon my people" - babylon again is the false churches. So God in the end will be gathering his people together.

Byfaithalone1 said:

Or perhaps each of them have missed certain things, and perhaps all of us have missed certain things. What did Paul mean in Romans 3 when he cited the passage that says that there is no one righteous and there is no one who understands?

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Show me biblically where one of the adventists beliefs is wrong... do we understand the bible entirely as Jesus does? No but I believe He has shed light so that we can understand what we need to understand. God is quite clear in the bible that there is a end time church which keeps ALL of His commandments and follows Him completely...

Byfaithalone1 said:

Do you believe that progressive SDAs view themselves as an "offshoot?"

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That is not important to me... in my mind they are and technically they are an offshoot. If they have a problem with that then they probably should not call themselves adventists.

Byfaithalone1 said:

Do you believe the phenominon that you've described is the ultimate fate for any person who doubts that Mrs. White's writings are authoritative?

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Its not a phenomena it is only what I have seen from friends who have disregarded Ellen White... and anyone who has had friends who have fallen away from believing in EGW I am sure can testify of similiar experiences... it blew my mind the first time I saw it but then if EGW is a prophet of God and her writings only point us to the Bible which I believe, if that is true then Christians who disregard her after knowing what she says who tend to stop reading the bible for she parallels and directs us to the Bible... if anyone has not read EGW I challenge you to do so. If after reading one of her books you can honestly say that she is a fake, a deceiver and not a prophet of God, I want you to let me know where you found this so that the rest of us can be enlightened.

I only believe in EGW because I have read her books... don't base what you believe on what someone claims about her, read the books yourself and then tell me where she contradicts the bible... I would be very happy to know!

Byfaithalone1 said:

Upon what basis do we determine what is truth and what is error?

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On the Bible. The Bible declares "all scripture is given by inspiration

2nd Timothy 3;16 declares:

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

There you got it! If you disregard this we have to throw the whole bible out and then where do we base anything?

Byfaithalone1 said:

Within the world today, are there any who are not traditional SDAs who also believe in and follow the Bible?

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Ohh I most certainly believe there are. And I believe there are traditional adventists who do not follow the Bible and what they know to be truth...
Today there are many Christians in many churches living up to the truth they know... that I most heartily believe and the Bible agrees on... however when Christ gathers "His elect" from the earth and out of Babylon then there will only be one true people...

Byfaithalone1 said:

Is the SDA position on the mark of the beast based upon the Scriptures or it is based upon man's teachings?

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I believe it to be based on the Bible... again I could sit here and detail each verse that proves it however that is not what this topic is about. HOWEVER if you or any other member here wants to know the truth I would be most happy to study it with you... and I mean STUDY, not just me telling you what I believe to be truth but me showing you the truth I believe in the Bible and you doing the same.

Again plz read these and give me your honest opinion based on their biblical backing:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStu...-Search-for-the-True-Church/SC/R/Default.aspx

Here is the biblical backing for the mark of the beast:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStu...st-The-Dragon-and-The-Woman/SC/R/Default.aspx

Byfaithalone1 said:

OK. So what does the Bible say about the mark of the beast?

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Great! You know I honestly think you and I both want the same thing, to know what the BIBLE says... so I won't beat around the bush with my own thoughts.

Daniel 7:25 says that the beast would: "think to change times and laws"...

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and
shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times
and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times
and the dividing of time."

#1. What is the only law of God which is indeed a law AND a time? The only one that qualifies is the Sabbath command. In this respect the Roman Catholic church 100% fits. The roman church changed the day from Sabbath to Sunday. If you have any doubts just read the Catholic catechism... they declare without any problem that they were the ones who did it and had the right to do so... So why does Daniel say "think" instead of say it would happen? Because in God's eyes the Roman Catholic church has absolutely no right to change His holy law.

#2 Did the Roman Catholic church persecute anybody let alone "saints"? Yes they did indeed, when protestants began popping up, Christians who protested the man-made traditions of the roman catholic church they were arrested, imprisoned and killed... this is a fact of history. Anyone who does not know this should really study history.
They killed millions of people who saw error in the traditions of the Roman Catholic church.

#3. The next part is a prophecy of the amount of time the Roman catholic church would persecute His people which happened exactly as prophesied. Again I am willing to show you this if your interested. But I think I am already close to my limit of characters in one post.

#4. If you study Daniel and Revelation you will notice prophecies dictating that this beast gets a deadly wound, in these prophecies it dictates the wound of the Roman Catholic church by Napoleon, America rising to power, america giving back the power to the beast and the beast persecuting the end time church. Again I am willing to study this with anyone interested... my time is limited due to my work but I will do my best to keep up with you...

Byfaithalone1 said:

This seems rather harsh toward those who have questions and yet decide to remain, don't you think?

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Not at all... I don't see anyone who stays and yet has questions as a hypocrite. Having questions and seeing the truth is something different all together. I hope you understand what I was saying... I would not call anyone a hypocrite who is honestly searching for the truth...

Byfaithalone1 said:

This is interesting. If SDAism has the truth as you believe that it does, will that truth not stand up in the light of day?

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I guess I don't get your drift... I do believe it will stand up in the "light of day" as you say. For the bible declares the "truth will set you free"
But I have the feeling that you feel it has not... or am I reading into something that isn't there?

Byfaithalone1 said:

Exactly. If you believe that the Spirit is capable of doing what Jesus promised He would do then is there any harm in reading and in exploring your beliefs so that you can better understand the source of your beliefs and/or the reasons why you believe as you do?

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I thought thats what I said... I believe each of us should study the Bible and do as the spirit leads us. I believe that you should study the SDA beliefs if you have any doubts to their validity... and if you don't mind I would greatly enjoy you sharing your findings with me... feel free to PM me for my email if you care to do so.

Byfaithalone1 said:

Let's start with the subject of the mark of the beast. What do you believe with respect to this subject?

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I already made that point above so I won't go back into that... again if anyone wants to discuss this I am more than happy to do so or if there is a thread on this forum discussing this topic than let me know.

I do want to put a DISCLAIMER on what I wrote about the Roman Catholic church... I believe their are MANY MANY christians in the Roman church who are living upto what they know to be truth... I am not condemning catholics or saying they are all going to hell... heaven forbid I take that prerogative. But I do believe the institution and the head will be the mark of the beast and will one day force all to worship on sunday or be killed...
believe me I do not want to believe this, cause as I have studied bible prophecy I see that America will play a leading role in giving the roman catholic church her power back... this hurts me as a very patriotic american.

Read this and give me your feedback if you would:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStu...st-The-Dragon-and-The-Woman/SC/R/Default.aspx

God bless you all! And if I have offended you I apologize, I do not mean to be rude or offensive just tell the truth...

@WINDMILL: No true christian would "render" other Christians with different beliefs as "useless". But there is a difference between that and believing that you are following the truth. I mean how can 100s of churches which have so varied beliefs be all "truth" - it is exactly what Satan wants us to believe... that all roads lead to heaven and that it doesn't really matter what you believe as long as you love Christs... sadly in the end God will say to those people "I never knew you..." cause the bible is clear that those who know Christ keep His commandments and follow Him.

Truth is truth no matter who knows it or sees it... and the Bible is the only rule of faith for any Christian and that is what we as adventists claim.

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Not according to fundamental belief #18.

We as traditional adventists believe Ellen White was inspired by God.

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One could hardly conclude that the SDA denomination asserts that the Bible is the only document that is authoritative.

Progressive adventists tend to disregard this to a certain degree or even disregard her completely.

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Are we to test prophets?

And I don't believe she is a prophet because traditional adventists say so, I have read her writings and I firmly believe they are inspired.

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Why? What convinced you?

just read her health books,

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I have. And I noticed, for example, that Mrs. White teaches that masturbation leads to a number of ailments including insanity. I note that modern science has not yet caught up with Ellen G. White on a number of claims.

Progressive adventists hold to the idea that the SDA church is not or is not exclusively the remnant church...

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As does Romans 11.

Progressive adventists claim that the Mark of the Beast will not be the Sunday law.

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As does Revelation 13-14.

If there was more than one true church than there would be no truth cause all churches vary in their beliefs.

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If this is true, why would we conclude that one has all "present truth?" Since Romans 3 confirms that there is no one who understands, why wouldn't we conclude that all churches have misunderstood something. Rather, the SDA denomination concludes that it is the only church that has all of the correct answers. In so doing, it isolates itself from the possibility that there are things to learn that it has not yet learned--things that could potentially invalidate one ore more of its teachings. I wonder whether all churches exhibit this same level of closed mindedness.

.. when we start treading on this ground we soon give up our peculiar beliefs

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If the peculiar beliefs aren't actually true, shouldn't we view this as a positive thing?

and what we used to believe as important now becomes unimportant.

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Again, if we used to believe error, would it better that we view that error as unimportant?

The bible is clear that the end time church, those who are saved will "keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Christ" -

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You failed to note that the phrase "end-time church" is nowhere to be found in Revelation 12:17.

2nd Corinthians 11:2 says:
“I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ”

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Again, this concept is not connected with an "end-time church." You may claim it, but that does not make it so.

According to this there is only one true church... read the full context and you realize he is talking about the church and Christ.

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He's talking about one specific denomination? You seem to be taking great liberties with the passage.

the bible speaks of coming "out of babylon my people"

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If there is only one true denomination, and all other denominations are false, why wouldn't the text read, come out of babylon you false denominations? Why does He call them my people?

Show me biblically where one of the adventists beliefs is wrong...

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Sure. The SDA denomination teaches that Jesus Christ will cease to intercede for His people after the close of probation. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ always lives to intercede for us (see Hebrews 6:19-20, Hebrews 7:25, Matthew 28:20, John 14:18, Hebrews 13:5).

What do I win?

do we understand the bible entirely as Jesus does?

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No. None of us. Denominations also do not.

No but I believe He has shed light so that we can understand what we need to understand.

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This begs an unreleated question. Are we saved by what we know, or are we saved by what He did?

God is quite clear in the bible that there is a end time church which keeps ALL of His commandments and follows Him completely...

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Maybe so, but you certainly haven't established that in this post.

Its not a phenomena it is only what I have seen from friends who have disregarded Ellen White... and anyone who has had friends who have fallen away from believing in EGW I am sure can testify of similiar experiences... it blew my mind the first time I saw it but then if EGW is a prophet of God and her writings only point us to the Bible which I believe, if that is true then Christians who disregard her after knowing what she says who tend to stop reading the bible for she parallels and directs us to the Bible...

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Interesting. I was an SDA for more than 30 years. I was employed by the denomination and I was passionate about its teachings. However, through my study of the Bible, I began to discover that a number of SDA teachings--including its position that SDAism is the remnant, end time church--could not be confirmed in Scripture. I found that Mrs. White both confirms and contradicts the Bible. Your candor would suggest that you view people like me as being apostate, fallen and lost. That's fine, for my assurance of salvation is not built upon your opinion of me. Rather, my assurance of salvation is built upon Jesus Christ who is the author and the finisher of my faith.

if anyone has not read EGW I challenge you to do so.

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Which aspect of her writings would you like to discuss? I have read much of what she has written, but I'm sure there are things I have not read. Feel free to raise a topic and we'll discuss it.

If after reading one of her books you can honestly say that she is a fake, a deceiver and not a prophet of God,

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I don't know what her motives were for writing, and I don't speculate. I don't know her heart and I choose not to make any statements one way or another about her as a person. However, I believe that prophets of God will not contradict the gospel of Jesus Christ and that I believe that Mrs. White's writings do indeed contradict the gospel.

I want you to let me know where you found this so that the rest of us can be enlightened.

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In Testimonies, Vol. 5, p. 214, Mrs. White wrote that it is left with us to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Is this true or is this false? Feel free to look it up and explore the context.

I only believe in EGW because I have read her books.

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I believe Mrs. White does not satisfy the Biblical criteria of a prophet because I have read her books and I have tested her in the way that Scripture invites us to test prophets.

.. don't base what you believe on what someone claims about her,

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Never have. Wouldn't start now.

read the books yourself

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Done.

and then tell me where she contradicts the bible...

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Done.

Daniel 7:25 says that the beast would: "think to change times and laws"...

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Please explain why you believe that this is a prophecy for a future event. Please study the life and tyranny of Antioches Epiphanes.

What is the only law of God which is indeed a law AND a time?

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If this was the pivotal question, wouldn't we have to conclude that Daniel 7 applies to all times and laws that are described in Leviticus 23? Why does SDA eschatology carve out the weekly sabbath and ignore the annual sabbaths? All of them refer to times and laws.

Did the Roman Catholic church persecute anybody let alone "saints"?

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Is Catholicism the only religious group that persecuted people? History reveals that it was not.

Not at all... I don't see anyone who stays and yet has questions as a hypocrite. Having questions and seeing the truth is something different all together. I hope you understand what I was saying... I would not call anyone a hypocrite who is honestly searching for the truth...

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Should we conclude that anyone who studies the SDA position and reaches an alternate conclusion is a person who is not honestly searching for truth?

But I do believe the institution and the head will be the mark of the beast and will one day force all to worship on sunday or be killed...

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What is the Biblical basis for believing that a Sunday law is coming?

believe me I do not want to believe this, cause as I have studied bible prophecy I see that America will play a leading role in giving the roman catholic church her power back...

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Please demonstrate this principle from Scripture. I'd be interested in reading it.

God bless you all! And if I have offended you I apologize, I do not mean to be rude or offensive just tell the truth...

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I am not offended. I am, however, interested in understanding the basis of the things you've written.

BFA

I joined the SdA church in 1954 at the age of 12 years. My wife's family and my family are largely SdA. My wife and I sent our letter of resignation in to the conference in 1981. We have no regrets. We have not joined another church. Our three children have attended and joined other churches.

We are not anti-SdA or anti-Christianity. We have felt we could best serve the Lord Jesus without belonging to a denomination. We would encourage young people to stay in a denomination, like Jacob living at home, until you are mature enough in Christ to live with the idolators, like Laban, or the king of Egypt and still give a testimony for the Lord our God.

Both of us went to the SdA Academy and college and thank the Lord for the training and experience. Why be thankful to the camp in which we do not live. Consider Jacob. When God is finished with the SdA camp (Isaac), I hope that my brother (Esau) and I can bury our parent in peace. Jacob did not have the slightest idea he would die in Egypt.

Everything is like a plant. The seed is buried and dies, then springs up and grows and develops its full form and then when it bears fruit the form begins to diminish and finally the form collapses as the fruit comes to the fulness.

The form of godliness of all human organizations will collapse as the Son of man sitting on the cloud puts forth His sickle. Then we will have the mind of Christ. Then we will be prepared for the horses to stomp on us until the blood comes up to their bridles.

Stay with the church of your nativity until God calls you forth and leads you to a place of wandering that He will shew you.

Joe

Joe67 said:

Stay with the church of your nativity until God calls you forth and leads you to a place of wandering that He will shew you.

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I appreciate this post. And I hope there is a way to grow without growing out of the church of origin. If not, how do we move as a community and not simply bifurcate?

I am a former Adventist because the doctrine I choose to follow diverges from that commonly taught by the Seven Adventist faith. I am still a social conservative since I believe that the Law is good and so I may have some ideas in common with mainstream Adventists.

Kerwin said:

I am a former Adventist because the doctrine I choose to follow diverges from that commonly taught by the Seven Adventist faith.

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In what way?

I am still a social conservative since I believe that the Law is good and so I may have some ideas in common with mainstream Adventists.

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Do you observe all of the God-given laws set out in Leviticus 23?

BFA

Avonia said:

I appreciate this post. And I hope there is a way to grow without growing out of the church of origin. If not, how do we move as a community and not simply bifurcate?

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You have touched on the problem with which the world is in a death struggle.