Why do you believe?

[super animator]

Your conclusion is ridiculous.

This is rubbish. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.

How is it ridiculous? Expressing beliefs isn't the same as making a claim.

 

[ivebeenshown]

There are many things about God that I believe in with a rational foundation, but then there are many things that I believe to be true that are not necessarily illogical, but for which I have no concrete proof -- i.e., faith.

 

[nebulaJP]

That's certainly one way time and tunnelling could work.


What do you mean by 'depend'?


1) QM doesn't imply discrete time.
2) Continuous time doesn't preclude quantum tunnelling.
3) Tunnelling is a readily-observed phenomenon and the basis of technology like Scanning Tunnelling Microscopy. If continuous time cannot coexist with quantum tunnelling, then so much for continuous time.

OK, we may have be talking past each other. In post 4 I posted a link for an article by Brian Whitworth about Virtualism and that's what I've been arguing this whole time. In your first post you said "that presumes that QM interactions are non-physical, yet they're not," and I'm saying that physicality itself is the output of processing in a non-physical quantum reality. I'm getting all of this from Brian Whitworth but a lot of people have written about "digital physics" such as John Archibald Wheeler's "It from Bit" and stuff like that.

All of Brian Whitworth's articles about it are under "Physics as Processing" at the bottom of this page:

Brian Whitworth

 

[nebulaJP]

I've posted numerous links that explain what I'm saying .

Sorry I was trying to save myself from doing much work. I think I understand what you're saying now, that's why I had the question about whether or not reality is continuous. I was trying that angle.

 

[Omnia sunt communia]

I want to ask theists here on why do they believe in God? Specifically, the Christian God.

I don't know.

Belief in God for me is not like believing in evolution, or believing in the existence of ghosts or horses. It's not about facts. It's about commitment. It's rather like having faith in love. Well, I would even say it is having faith in love.

After all, the only authentic manifestation of the christian God is a human being at the end of his tether, foundering in darkness, pain and bewilderment, nevertheless remaining faithful to the promise of a transformative love.

Being a christian is all about sharing this commitment. For me it's not about anything else (not clinging to religious idols, rituals, morals or rules of any kind), and it does not contain anything that conflicts with a scientific world view.

 

[nebulaJP]

Well if mean God is just consciousness then God does exist, but that isn't what most people mean by God. It sounds like you are unnecessarily making up definitions. If you are going to say God is consciousness, then why not just use the word consciousness?

Why use the word God at all?

If you mean that God is more than the things we experience then obviously they can't be evidence for God because they could exist without God.

Let me put it this way. Awareness or consciousness is the most special thing in the universe and I believe every particle is aware. By consciousness I mean awareness not thought or the mind or the thinking mind, just awareness of the present moment.

"God" is just a symbol for something the thinking mind can't understand, the way a fish in a lake can't understand a human's life in a city. So for me the belief in God is a belief that there is something behind it all that my thinking mind can't understand. Every word used to define God, like awareness or consciousness is just a metaphor. Since I believe awareness is so special, I tend to relate that to the divine, but it's only one perspective on it. Some people think of God as love.

 

[nebulaJP]

Why do you think that explanation would be made up?

We know the mind can do strange things, such as make people dream, hallucinate, go mad, etc. It is easily possible that NDE are psychological, so there is no need to think there is a spirit or other world.

In the quote I was replying to, you said "They could easily be explained by the brain dying or waking up. There is no need to make up magical other worlds." The reason I said unreal or "made up" (with quotation marks) is because I meant made up by the person's physiology, or not real. I wasn't using "made up" in the same sense that you were the first time. The second time I was. I don't feel I'm being creative or making up magical worlds, I just believe people have seen the other side.

 

[nebulaJP]

Thanks for the reply.

I'll first address the life beyond death claim.
Near-death experiences are probably the most unreasonable and least compelling way(s) to be swayed about whether or not there is truth in x (x in this case being life beyond death). How can we assess an experience of a person who is at their most vulnerable, nonsensical state where they are prone to illusions and misinformation due to the fact that their body is leading or close to failure.
I could also go on on how believing a claim off of someone else's personal experience (in this case NDE) fails in providing actual evidence of their claim.

It's circumstantial evidence as opposed to direct evidence, but I think it's pretty good. What is the atheist/non-theistic evolutionist's explanation of why stress to the brain would sometimes cause beautiful, vivid experiences of another world, gap?

 

[directorrico]

How is it ridiculous? Expressing beliefs isn't the same as making a claim.

He clearly said that God is the creator of our complex world.
Where's the evidence for it?
(So then I follow with the shifting of the burden of proof).

 

[directorrico]

I don't know.

Belief in God for me is not like believing in evolution, or believing in the existence of ghosts or horses. It's not about facts. It's about commitment. It's rather like having faith in love. Well, I would even say it is having faith in love.

After all, the only authentic manifestation of the christian God is a human being at the end of his tether, foundering in darkness, pain and bewilderment, nevertheless remaining faithful to the promise of a transformative love.

Being a christian is all about sharing this commitment. For me it's not about anything else (not clinging to religious idols, rituals, morals or rules of any kind), and it does not contain anything that conflicts with a scientific world view.

Thanks for the reply.

Why have faith in something without it being factually true?
You can love your wife because you trust her based on her commitment to you.
You can love your brand new dog because you've seen their behaviors and how they interact with humans.

You have trust in the sense that it is justified trust but when it comes to a God, the facts aren't appealing to you? Why not?

 

[directorrico]

It's circumstantial evidence as opposed to direct evidence, but I think it's pretty good. What is the atheist/non-theistic evolutionist's explanation of why stress to the brain would sometimes cause beautiful, vivid experiences of another world, gap?

My explanation? They are delusional.

Does not mean it is a horrible view to see.
Perhaps it could be a similar view when smoking marijuana where you see numerous colours, beautiful sights, perhaps even things you could never imagine in reality... but guess what? You are delusional. Just as you are when you are about to die.

 

[nebulaJP]

My explanation? They are delusional.

Does not mean it is a horrible view to see.
Perhaps it could be a similar view when smoking marijuana where you see numerous colours, beautiful sights, perhaps even things you could never imagine in reality... but guess what? You are delusional. Just as you are when you are about to die.

Marijuana is a very mild hallucinogen but strong ones like DMT "the spirit molecule" (the active ingredient in ayahuasca) are used in religious sacrament. Maybe they open your perception to the other side? People on pharmaceutical grade DMT report something very close to an NDE but without the stuff about dying, going through a tunnel, seeing loved ones, choosing to stay or return etc.

 

[nebulaJP]

And this psychedelic mushroom is believed to have been referenced in some medieval Christian art.

 

[directorrico]

Marijuana is a very mild hallucinogen but strong ones like DMT "the spirit molecule" (the active ingredient in _ are used in religious sacrament. Maybe they open your perception to the other side? People on pharmaceutical grade DMT report something very close to an NDE but without the stuff about dying, going through a tunnel, seeing loved ones, choosing to stay or return etc.

The marijuana reference had nothing to do with the specific drug exactly but that people can hallucinate from drugs.

And seriously? NDE people had the chance to stay or return? Who told you? Themselves? Because they were the ones to actually come back to life and say "I saw my loved ones and I came back to spread the word of the Lord!". (And please this is just a hypothetical speech, don't address that 'nobody ever said those exact words!') And I'm sure the people who are no longer with us chose to die instead?
When I have nightmares, I sometimes see my family, I envision horrible things, I see darkness, brightness, and many other things. And that is from an 8-hour session of me being asleep. NDE are in the midst of dying and they are convinced (as well as you) that after they have woken up that God was sending them a message?

 

[nebulaJP]

And seriously? NDE people had the chance to stay or return?

Not all of them. In some cases they wanted to stay there but were forced to return to their body against their will. But commonly in the stories there is some discussion with some being or another about whether the person will stay or return.

 

[nebulaJP]

The marijuana reference had nothing to do with the specific drug exactly but that people can hallucinate from drugs.

I know. Marijuana is used in Rastafarianism by the way. I said perhaps hallucinogens open your perception to the other side as in Shamanism, so that the traditional users who use this as part of their religion and know what they're doing, do actually connect with the spirit world, through the use of the drugs.

We have a veil that blocks our perceptions but sometimes it's lifted, such as when hallucinogens are used in ritual or when one is having an NDE or when one is in deep meditation.

 

[Omnia sunt communia]

Thanks for the reply.

Why have faith in something without it being factually true?

I think there is a truth to it. But not a factual truth. Rather like the truths of art, literature or existentialism.

You can love your wife because you trust her based on her commitment to you.
You can love your brand new dog because you've seen their behaviors and how they interact with humans.

I don't love my SO for something she does. And I won't love my future kids because they are "good kids". It's not conditional in any such sense.

You have trust in the sense that it is justified trust but when it comes to a God, the facts aren't appealing to you? Why not?

I don't really believe God exists in the way most christians do. I don't think he is an entity. I think he is largely a social construct, and an ideal that holds truth about existence and how we should live our lives.

I'm not sure exactly how and in which senses God is truth. That's an ongoing philosophical/teological investigation of mine. But I'd claim that the suffering of Jesus is a good image of the human condition and I believe that life according to the divine principles of unconditional love and free spirited delight would be very good life indeed. Far better than our current miserable world of material and spiritual poverty, oppression, alienation, fetisches and false idols.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I think there is a truth to it. But not a factual truth. Rather like the truths of art, literature or existentialism.

So "God exists" is an artistic or literary truth, but isn't actually true in the usual sense?

I don't love my SO for something she does. And I won't love my future kids because they are "good kids". It's not conditional in any such sense.

I think he's saying it's evidence of love, not the conditions of love. There's no faith involved, because love can be demonstrated.

I don't really believe God exists in the way most christians do. I don't think he is an entity. I think he is largely a social construct, and an ideal that holds truth about existence and how we should live our lives.

I'm not sure exactly how and in which senses God is truth. That's an ongoing philosophical/teological investigation of mine. But I'd claim that the suffering of Jesus is a good image of the human condition and I believe that life according to the divine principles of unconditional love and free spirited delight would be very good life indeed. Far better than our current miserable world of material and spiritual poverty, oppression, alienation, fetisches and false idols.

If God doesn't exist, then aren't all idols false?

Besides, for all this world's ills, human life is far better than it ever was.

 

[nebulaJP]

I'm not sure exactly how and in which senses God is truth. That's an ongoing philosophical/teological investigation of mine. But I'd claim that [1] the suffering of Jesus is a good image of the human condition and I believe that life according to the divine principles of unconditional love and [2] free spirited delight would be very good life indeed. Far better than our current miserable [3] world of material and spiritual poverty, oppression, alienation, fetisches and false idols.

1. Exactly. Jesus is the archetypal human. We all suffer and Jesus shows us how to deal with it, with total surrender. This is the only way, to fully accept the suffering of the present moment, not resist it, "Thy will be done." To have total acceptance of whatever exists in the present moment so that you aren't opposing or resisting reality. Jesus offers no defense, carries his own cross, does not resist, accepts the suffering, surrenders to it and thereby opens the portal to the divine.

2. Right. Jesus tells us to become like little children, who aren't lost in conceptualization like adults but live primarily through awareness of sense perceptions.

3. I think the "the world" Jesus refers to is the physical world, the world of "This too shall pass," the temporal, constantly changing world of thought and circumstance as opposed to the eternal "kingdom of God," i.e. the timeless dimension of awareness in the present moment. Both have their place, but it's important not to be lost in the temporal, changing aspects of life such your thoughts and circumstances all the time, and have at least brief periods (even for a few seconds) of no thought, stillness (Psalm 46:10), silence or rest of the soul (Psalm 62:1 & 5), perhaps through breath awareness, putting the attention into the sense perception of the feeling the breath of God in the nostrils (Job 27:3). For me this is seeking the kingdom of God.

 

[Paradoxum]

Let me put it this way. Awareness or consciousness is the most special thing in the universe and I believe every particle is aware. By consciousness I mean awareness not thought or the mind or the thinking mind, just awareness of the present moment.

I agree that consciousness seems different from everything else, and I have speculated about whether particles themselves are 'blue' (eg) in some sense, not only when they are perceived by the mind. But that is just speculation for me, not belief.

"God" is just a symbol for something the thinking mind can't understand, the way a fish in a lake can't understand a human's life in a city. So for me the belief in God is a belief that there is something behind it all that my thinking mind can't understand. Every word used to define God, like awareness or consciousness is just a metaphor. Since I believe awareness is so special, I tend to relate that to the divine, but it's only one perspective on it. Some people think of God as love.

I would suggest you don't use the word God then. It doesn't sound alot like what God normally means.

In the quote I was replying to, you said "They could easily be explained by the brain dying or waking up. There is no need to make up magical other worlds." The reason I said unreal or "made up" (with quotation marks) is because I meant made up by the person's physiology, or not real. I wasn't using "made up" in the same sense that you were the first time. The second time I was. I don't feel I'm being creative or making up magical worlds, I just believe people have seen the other side.

But if you think there is another side, then aren't you making up that there is another side? We have no reason to think there is one. But if you want to believe that, it is obviously up to you.