Why do YOU believe?

[Tinker Grey]

No, I'm just saying it is an example of learning through analogy. It could be a cold rational X therefore Y. Or, it could be a visceral "Ouch. That hurts. People shouldn't do that." One might process the information emotionally or they may process it rationally. Nevertheless, the analogy is through an understanding of what it feels like. An abused child may draw a conclusion that "aha. If I want to control people, I do X".

I.e., my point wasn't about logic per se, but rather about analogy. I think perhaps any given person's decisions can be framed as a logical construct (as I suggested with the abused example above), and one may even correctly figure out the subject's reasons and how they got to the conclusion; but, the subject may still have got there via emotions.

If the person actually reasoned:
A) I saw that person get hit.
B) I observed that person cry immediately upon getting hit.
C) When I get hit, I cry.
D) I cry because it hurts.
E) I don't like being hurt.
... observations follow, and via induction
F) People cry when they are hurt.
G) People don't like being hurt.
H) Being hurt is bad.
I) I want to be good. (This may be where an abused person deviates).
J) Good is the opposite of bad.
K) I don't want to be bad.
L) Therefore, I won't hurt people.
M) Therefore, I won't hit people.

... well, then they were being logical, and "Therefore I won't hit people" follows.

I don't think that's what people actually do that. But I do think that that realization is due to making an analogy between your own feelings and the person's feelings. And, I have watched my children reach that point in their development finally observe that "people feel like I feel; I like them to make me feel good; I don't like them to make me feel bad; I want people to feel good around me; I won't do bad things to them." With my oldest, the moment was observable and explicit.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

To me it appears the more logical think. But for more reasons than the existance of life.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I'm sorry. I didn't get that.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

So why do you believe that?

Without writing down my entire testimony, I suppose it's a mixture of the options you gave, then add in the trilemma and historical support... between my experiential proof (ie, having experienced Him first-hand, and witnessing miraculous answers to prayer) and my acceptance of the historical proof, I believe it absolutely.

Perhaps you lack an understanding of the loaded nature of words like pigeonholing.

I very much do. I've never heard "pigeon-hole" used as pejorative, invective, or even as loaded statement. Perhaps you could give me the benefit of the doubt and accept what I say at face value, just as you asked me to do.

If you don't want to answer my questions, don't.

This is really hard work. Lookit, any time you want to be less combative, that'd be awesomesauce.

If not, though, as you wish.

 

[tansy]

There are all kinds of reasons for my belief in God, but I consider that I have experienced Him in various ways and that He has answered prayers (in various ways)

 

[Tinker Grey]

Thanks for answering, tansy.

 

[Chesterton]

No, I'm just saying it is an example of learning through analogy.

Okay, but to me, the word "learning" at some level implies there is truth to be learned. I can "learn" how to rob a bank, or how to lie more successfully, but in the sense that I think you're using the word "learn" aren't you talking about apprehending some truth (truth external to humans)?

 

[Linus]

To make a long story short. I grew up in a secular home and I didn't know any believers as well as never attended a Church. I was around ten when I felt that God must exist. He drove me close to Him.

 

[RobinRedbreast]

One of my hobbies is epistemology. Unfortunately, to date this avocation has been limited to me thinking about how I know things and how other people know things. Someday, I hope to get around to reading some expert opinions on the topic.

One of my theories about epistemology is that we learn things through analogy. ("That's how I feel when somebody hits me! Therefore I won't hit people", etc.) Empathy is a particular form of epistemology.

So, asking the question as to why you believe and asking why you think others believe helps me understand my own attitudes on the topics.

I would hope that it would be helpful to others as well.

Thanks for the well-thought-out explanation

I still feel I cannot vote in your poll, my reasons for believing are a mix of several things on your list (though a few items I can eliminate completely ), plus items you haven't even put up there.

If I had to boil it down, 100%, to ONE item? That item is not on your list.

I used to be an atheist. I was raised pretty much an atheist. The only way I got from atheism to God? Was, believe it or not, logic It took me a long time of meticulous study in logic and sciences and how they relate to (and prove the existence of) God. And then, only then, did any kind of "faith" or "experiencing God" come along. Oddly enough, this process I went through gives me a strength in God like I could never have imagined -- because even if my faith feels weak in some moments, I logically know God is there, and I still feel I can continue on until my faith returns. My faith is a little like love -- it ebbs and flows, there are high points and low points. But my reason and my logic remains intact at all times.

If I had to choose a close runner-up to "Logical deduction" as a reason for believing in God I suppose it would have to be "experiencing God", because once I got to the "Ok, so God must exist.. now what" phase of my journey, this was the point in time when I had to develop a real relationship with God, and that is when I started finding Him everywhere

I hope that makes some sense For argument's sake, I've chosen "Experiencing God" for the sake of your poll. I believe also in a way that this answer encompasses several other options, such as "answered prayers", "existence of the universe" and so on, "faith fills a need" and so on. So, it'll be the best one I can choose for now.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Okay, but to me, the word "learning" at some level implies there is truth to be learned. I can "learn" how to rob a bank, or how to lie more successfully, but in the sense that I think you're using the word "learn" aren't you talking about apprehending some truth (truth external to humans)?

Well, yes. I guess. I might word it "apprehending some truth external to ourselves". IOW, not just that the sun fuses hydrogen making helium, but that humans (at least non-sociopaths) have the experiences of love, loss, security, fear, and frailty, etc. in common with "me."

I thought about this a little since my last response. I want to be able to say that all things are learned this way, but I don't think I can. We learn 2+2=4 and we may learn the fact by learning through analogy to please our teacher. But that is a tortured way of looking at it. We may learn to please the teacher thru analogy but not the fact. I don't know that when I finalize that 2 apples and 2 apples makes 4 apples that that process is anything like analogy.

I suppose then that what analogy is good for is understanding those things we can't take apart. I had read Plantinga's God and Other Minds, a tedious work. (Well, the book assumes the reader knows a lot of the author's opponents arguments ... and I don't/didn't). His argument is that we know God or can justify what we claim about God by making the analogy that how we know each other is how we know God.

Anyway, these are the ideas I'm unprofessionally exploring.

 

[Tinker Grey]

To make a long story short. I grew up in a secular home and I didn't know any believers as well as never attended a Church. I was around ten when I felt that God must exist. He drove me close to Him.

Thank for the reply.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Thanks for the well-thought-out explanation

I still feel I cannot vote in your poll, my reasons for believing are a mix of several things on your list (though a few items I can eliminate completely ), plus items you haven't even put up there.

If I had to boil it down, 100%, to ONE item? That item is not on your list.

I used to be an atheist. I was raised pretty much an atheist. The only way I got from atheism to God? Was, believe it or not, logic It took me a long time of meticulous study in logic and sciences and how they relate to (and prove the existence of) God. And then, only then, did any kind of "faith" or "experiencing God" come along. Oddly enough, this process I went through gives me a strength in God like I could never have imagined -- because even if my faith feels weak in some moments, I logically know God is there, and I still feel I can continue on until my faith returns. My faith is a little like love -- it ebbs and flows, there are high points and low points. But my reason and my logic remains intact at all times.

If I had to choose a close runner-up to "Logical deduction" as a reason for believing in God I suppose it would have to be "experiencing God", because once I got to the "Ok, so God must exist.. now what" phase of my journey, this was the point in time when I had to develop a real relationship with God, and that is when I started finding Him everywhere

I hope that makes some sense For argument's sake, I've chosen "Experiencing God" for the sake of your poll. I believe also in a way that this answer encompasses several other options, such as "answered prayers", "existence of the universe" and so on, "faith fills a need" and so on. So, it'll be the best one I can choose for now.

Thank for making the effort. It sounds like you and I have a lot in common. I'd be interested in discussing your logical progression. You'll have to suggest a forum to do that in.

And to whom it may concern, I don't think I'll be able to get back on till Sunday.

 

[Chesterton]

Do you like Samuel Clemens? Have you ever read What Is Man? Something about the way you're asking these things, and what you say about learning, (along with your avatar) reminds me of that essay.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yes, I do like him. But, no I haven't read that essay. I'll have to look it up.

Thanks.

 

[Criada]

I voted for number two... because I suppose that is the primary reason, though there are so many others.
I believe, principally because despite my efforts not to.. the words of Philip Dick are very true:

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.”

I was an atheist until I was 19... since then, I have tried to walk away many times, but, whatever i did or said, God didn't go away. For which I am profoundly grateful, because i have reasoned Him out of existence so many times.. but, He is still there

 

[Tinker Grey]

Thanks for voting, Criada.

 

[LogosRhema]

Hmm.

From our last discussions I'm finding these responses interesting, considering what you have told me about yourself, Tinker. Will you conclude anything publicly? Or you keeping your conclusions private?

 

[Tinker Grey]

I dunno. I'll have to think about it. I'm not sure there is anything interesting to conclude. Perhaps this will end up a data-point in my thinking somewhere down the line.

Part of the problem with a survey like this is that it is not really scientific--the sample is not random. The answerers are self-selected (as researchers are wont to say) in that by the very fact that they are members here has implications for the range of answers you will receive. IOW, you can't survey the KKK and conclude that Americans in general are racist.

 

[ephraimanesti]

I dunno. I'll have to think about it. I'm not sure there is anything interesting to conclude. Perhaps this will end up a data-point in my thinking somewhere down the line.

Part of the problem with a survey like this is that it is not really scientific--the sample is not random. The answerers are self-selected (as researchers are wont to say) in that by the very fact that they are members here has implications for the range of answers you will receive. IOW, you can't survey the KKK and conclude that Americans in general are racist.

In other words, you are surprised by how many believe in God because they have personally experienced Him and you don't want to look at the data too closely because of its implications--primarily on your state of disbelief. Correct?

ephraim

 

[LogosRhema]

In other words, you are surprised by how many believe in God because they have personally experienced Him and you don't want to look at the data too closely because of its implications--primarily on your state of disbelief. Correct?

ephraim

He does have a point from an intellectually sound stand point. He's asking a bunch of devoted Christians (hence you won't find too many overly devout Christians on this website, why would they care?)... So the sample population for this data can be considered unreliable.

Took Statistics.

Although, I can say it depends. Is Tinker only asking devout Christians? Is he aiming for a general overview of Christians? Depends on the target population. Obviously you would not ask guys about hair product. It just depends.

IMHO, Tinker, I would not overlook this. Standing from the inside looking out. I'm surprised by the answers myself, if that tells you anything.