Why do you believe in god?

[Robbb]

The title says it all. I'm just curious - why do you or do you not believe in god? I don't want this to be a flame fest, so try and keep it clean.

Oh, by the way, I'm an atheist. My apoligies if this is the wrong forum.

 

[Hentenza]

Moved to Exploring Christianity

 

[John Wang]

After looking at the world from a logical perspective and using the scientific method to come to conclusions about the world I realized that there is actually no evidence to support the existence of god, at least none that are unbiased or can be tested like the mountains of empirical evidence gathered by scientists.

 

[drich0150]

First, Just some definitions to help you understand my explanation.

Sin is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil is malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is Evil but all evil is sin.

God can not be evil because Evil is malicious intent to commit sin. If God wished to do anything then it would be in His will to do so, therefore it could not be a sin. If there is no sin, then how could one have malicious intent to commit sin?

God is Evil free as a matter of default. The power God wields has absolutely nothing to do with his ability to sin or commit Evil. Because God is all powerful He can do as He wishes.

Your first point is a matter of Philosophy, and not one of power. Once you have a better sense of the terms used.


again this is a matter of philosophy. your using "Pure Good" as the standard. When in fact God is the Standard in which we Measure true righteousness. (Pure goodness) Because no matter what God does, even wiping out the entire population of the earth save one family, it is considered a righteous act.

God is the standard in which all else is measured. His will is the same Yesterday, Today, and will be Tomorrow. all of which boils down to a signal point. Because you have sinned you're need redemption. This redemption can be found in the blood of Christ, for all who accept it.

 

[Hammster]

I believe in God for the same reason I believe in the mailman. I never see him, but there is evidence he exists.

Other than that, it is because He has revealed Himself to me.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

 

[Hammster]

That really isn't an argument against their being a god as much as it an argument against how God operates.

 

[drich0150]

Did what?

Bad and good even pain is subjective to interpretation, from the culture, and to time period in which you live. Even from person to person. In Germany in the early 1940's what it took to be a "good citizen" or a good person, is vastly different than what that means today. Especially if you compare that society to todays America. But if Germany won the War we would have a completely different out look on what Had happened during that time period.

Look at all the US did during the "taming of the west." Even if we can admit it was not right to take the native Americans land there are very few people left in this country, that look at that time period as a Holocaust, at least not like they would with the Jews. But in essence the same things happened for the basic same reasons. One people wanted what another had, and ultimately took it by killing all who apposed this country's manifest destiny. the only difference is no one stopped us like we stopped Germany. and our history reflects the Victor's accounts of both events.

So my point was not to confuse but to point out that without a perfect standard Like God, our ideas of right and wrong would vary from generation to generation and from culture to culture. this is why it is important to understand that God is indeed the perfect standard of righteousness. because without this absolute, then what is right and Good for you may not be so right and good for another, like an American Indian or European Jew.

In the argument that God can or can not do evil, it does indeed matter. Because Again, If evil is malicious intent to commit sin, and sin is anything not in the expressed will of God, then the argument about God, not having the "power" to sin is null and void.
Because as I have explained anything God wants to do with any or all of His power, will in fact be well with in his will, and as such can not be a sin. If there is no sin, then there can't be evil (or malicious intent to commit sin). None of which has anything to do with God's power.

Again what I have done is taken Biblically back principle and definitions and applied them to your personal philosophy concerning God, and shown you the discrepancies between what God has made known to us, and what you believe. so if you are looking for a reason to believe what you want to believe then your going to have to make up a reason to do so. Like:
I'm over complicating things so I can escape the bottom....


If you seriously want to look at God then look at Him through the tools He has left for us rather than, whatever it is you are doing. Otherwise your stacking the deck to deal yourself a favorable Hand. This may allow you and those close to you to Think that you that you know what you are doing. Heck you may even honestly believe this over time yourself, but do you really think you will be able to stand before God with your stacked deck? then why practice with one? Why not take an honest look and let the cards fall where they may.

 

[Timothew]

All that your saying stil does not change the facts. God could have made eternal peace from the beggining. Instead he makes it so that babies are born with aids and starve to death. That makes him evil. It just does, what your doing is akin to being shot in the foot and denying it while wrything in pain.

You are right, there is pain in the world and evil. I don't think that this means there is no God. If there were a world without pain, how could any of us do good to each other? How could we ease someone else's pain, if there were no pain?

I believe that God created the world perfect and we wrecked it. Now God is giving us an opportunity to help him fix it.

Babies are born with aids, but God didn't give them aids. We know how aids is spread, we can prevent it. But we can't force people to be responsible. People are working on a cure, God is helping, through people.

You're right when you say that people are starving. All of us who have more than enough need to share with those who have too little. This is how God works to fix what we have wrecked.

 

[I-can-see]

I believe in God because I believe what I can see.

I can see that through out history, all of human kind has told stories of a God or gods. A lot of people would say that is is because humans want to believe that there is a higher power then themselves. That is not true. Human nature does NOT change, and human nature contains pride. We do not want to believe there is a higher power because WE want to be in control. This is evident every since you have your first argument with your parents. An argument is nothing but a battle for power and control, and if a humans want for control (over events, others, things ect...) then that means that as a race, humans would RATHER be in charge ourselves. Otherwise that first argument with your parents NEVER would have happened.

That is my first reason.

My second is this: Law

To you scientist, I have a question. Did you have to see an atom to believed it existed? Or what about a proton or neutron? Perhaps a single electron? I don't think so. No way you got to see a proton in 8th grade science class and move it around with your hands...but you believed because the evidence was in front of you. Now...


Science is centered around laws...and a lot of them. There are rules that explain what should happen and why right? Well, do you think scientist "invented" these scientific laws or the composition of an atom? Do you think they just pulled it out there ass and made it magically work? No, scientist simply look at how nature operates, then they explain it.

Now, lets look at how laws work. ALL laws work the same. Laws are ALWAYS a set of rules that someone decides on. In human government, laws are passed down by the person or persons in charge. Everyone MUST obey these laws or there ARE consequences.

examples:

Government Law: You steal, then you go to jail.
That is the law. If you steal, then you go to jail. Jail being the consequence, stealing being the action.

Science Law: You put one too many neutrons into an atom, then ca-boom!
Miscount of neutron placement being the action...and ca-boom being the consequence.

Laws are all the same, and none just pop out of thin air. It takes a conscience to create a law...and it takes us abide by the law. Being lawless is called disorder. If all the laws that protected us as people from each other were not in place, then chaos would be the out come. Just as the outcome of placing a neutron were it does not belong is chaos. God is the creator of the laws that scientist observe.

 

[Timothew]

I never said there is no god. There is a chance, a very small one. Even a smaller chance that ur version of God exists. If he let us wreck it then either he doesn't care or he wanted it or hes not all powerfull. Yet again it gets back to the point. Either this god is evil or at least mostly evil or he is powerless. That is the bottom line.

There is another logical position, the God allows us to act however we wish. That he gives us free will.

 

[Timothew]

Very simple. I'm a naturalist. I believe that everything in the universe is purely a function of matter, energy, and the natural properties thereof. So by logical extension, that makes me an atheist--at least as regards any god that is claimed to have supernatural powers.

I can't prove it with absolute metaphysical certainty (nor can theists prove their position) but I support my belief with inductive reasoning. Many things once considered inexplicable were thought to be of supernatural origin. But everything that we now understand, we know to be a perfectly natural process. A supernatural explanation has never proven valid for anything. So, a posteriori, it's a logical conclusion that everything--even what we can't yet explain--is also a natural phenomenon.

That's a very good answer and I'm impressed.

So would you say that since neither atheism nor theism can be proven, either position is logical for a thinking person?

 

[bibleblevr]

It seems that every atheist has the same problem with the idea of a good God; the existence of evil.

Unlike most Christians I hold a slightly different view of why there is evil, and how much of it is God's "fault". I believe that evil is in God's plan and is not inconsistent with his goodness. Evil, pain and sin can all be used as tools for creating beauty. He directly created evil and continually allows it to exist in the places he chooses.

Too illustrate my point, try to think of a movie or book that is exiting, interesting and considered a good piece of story telling. Now I can guarantee that what you are thinking of has a villain, conflict, death, painful circumstance, sadness, anger, trauma, or some kind of mischief. if it didn't it would be a poor story and the piece of literature would not be beautiful. furthermore a hero could not exist nor could courage or honor be displayed!

God is like the writer of our story, he created the villains and the heroes and watches them battle, we are in the story and naturally we are crushed when we see the evil circumstances arrive. Most of the time we don't understand them at all, but next time you watch a movie (like God is ) imagine how those characters feel, sometimes it is tragic to watch. We like God feel the emotions of those we are watching and sympathize with there pain, it grieves us and God when a good character dies but in the grand scheme of things it is a beautiful story.

If I told you the author of a book was evil for allowing evil to happen in his story, I would expect you would respond that it is ridiculous to say such a thing. I might say that he is the creator and controller of the evil so he is guilty of the crimes he writes about! However the author is not bound by the laws or rules of the people in the book, he created the book. So it is with my God

 

[drich0150]

As I said, I'm a naturalist. I think naturalism is supported by inductive logic, but there is no such support for supernaturalism. So if there is a type of theism that doesn't involve supernatural forces or events, then that could be a logical position.

Perhaps the super natural is only the natural that can not be explained as of yet. God is the Father of all things (even the natural processes that we can identify) So it would stand to reason that all of His abilities center around His (unexplained) "Natural" ability to manipulate Natural processes.

 

[drich0150]

He could have given us extreme happiness and excitement built into us forever, if he was good and all powerful, that is.

He could have made us do whatever His will is, but instead God wanted us to want to be with Him.

So for there to be a choice (to want to be with God, or not) their needs to be an "Or not" in this case the "Or not" is referred to as sin. (Anything not in the expressed will of God) This is why God placed the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. (So that Adam and Eve had a true choice.)When we sin we are choosing to not be in the expressed will of God. Just one sin is enough to render us not worthy to be in the presents of God. But at the same time sin is necessary to have free will.

So in order for us to have a true choice/free will (to sin or not, to want to be with God or not) There has to be be a redeeming sacrifice to make us worthy to be with God again (For all who choose to be) This is why Jesus died for your sins. So you could have a true choice to either be with God or to spend eternity away from Him.

Because God is all Good and all Powerful He choose not to make a race of slaves or robots, He chose to give us the gift of Free will Even though that Gift had a very High Price. (His son) So that only those who want to be with God will get to do so, and those who do not want to be with God will in turn get what their Hearts want. An eternity separated from God. That way no matter your eternal fate you will know this is where your heart wanted to be.

 

[jpcedotal]

I can look at my past filled with mistakes and wrong decisions and sin,sin,sin. Then I can look at the two beautiful kids that were the result of this.

There is no such thing as accidents....God is good and no matter what I do, He can produce miracles from it.

 

[bibleblevr]

Also Why make hell and eternal punishment then?

First off, hell is not eternal it is a just and fair punishment for the crimes we have done against God. When the punishment is over we have perished, and are gone, not tortured some more. this idea has been used over and over to try to scare people into Christianity, but it is a lie. many well meaning people believe it, but it is simply not taught in the Bible.

You seem to be acting as if God is subject to our laws and rules, he is the author of our story and like the author of a book is not evil because of the acts of his characters. Is JRR Tolkien evil because he wrote about evil rings, orcs and what not, in the lord of the rings? how would it be any different with God if I said God wrote about earthquakes, murders and genocide? By the way God's story has a happy ending read Revelations he remakes the earth into a paradise and those who are evil are justly punished while those who have lived rightly before God are rewarded. And considering we are all criminals according to God's laws, the fact any of us are not punished is more than fair.

However I understand how It is hard to imagine stuff out side of the story you are in. Frodo or Sam would have a tough time wrapping their heads around the idea they are in a book!

 

[bibleblevr]

Yea sure, makes everything exciting, still means he is evil. Why trust him? Why even waste time on him? He could have given us extream happiness and excitement built into us forever, if he was good and all powerfull, that is. Which clearly, he is neither. Unless he is very evil.

Unfortunately in our universe there always has to be a contrast to make things look brighter. A painting is silly looking is there are no shadows or dark lines. nothing can standout without a background that is less vibrant than what is being portrayed. We can't have real good or real happiness with out the other side of the spectrum. that is just how our reality works.

So why didn't God make a universe where those weren't the laws and good could shine without it's shadow called evil? He did! and he named him Jesus. Jesus is the eternally projected image of all things God calls holy, he is begotten of God and of the same essence. If we where created without pain as a shadow to happiness in other words perfect we would be part of the jesus universe, and two universes could not exist because Jesus is the projection of all things perfect and holy.

To make another universe God had to introduce a new agent called evil to separate us from the Jesus universe. if we where both perfect we would be identical so we needed some flaws. But the promise God gives us in scripture is we don't need to be separated forever, some day we will be married to Christ as the bible describes it and will become one flesh at that point yes, we will have "extream happiness and excitement built into us forever" as you described. In essence we will be absorbed into the Jesus universe. The combination of us and Christ has already begun with Jesus's death by letting us die to sin as he did, and be raised again sin-free with a new Jesus-compatible nature unflawed by sin.

 

[drich0150]

So God is insecure and is rather selfish.
He is EVIL!!!!!!

Please explain How does any of what I have explained Make God insecure?

And Again How can God be Evil? Are you just using random words based on how they make you feel regardless of their actual meaning? To say God is evil is to not understand what evil is or what the word actually means.

It's like saying this pitch dark is awfully bright! over and over. When someone constantly misuses a word it means they are ignorant to what the word means or that they're simply trying to get under you skin. The way you use that phrase make me think your not planning your responses. This is just how you feel for whatever reason. you can't explain it, or properly defend your position, so you just keep saying it over and over hoping that it will catch on.. This is what is known as a fools argument. I try and not make a habit arguing with fools.

Why did Jesus have to die?

Because God is a righteous God. True righteousness demands payment for sins. And because the wages for sin is Death, Someone had to die for your sins.
Like is someone were to break into your house and kill your whole family in the worst possible way, but shortly after the police catch the guy, and ask you what should we do with him? What would you say? let him go? Give this man a prize for his deeds?

You have been given a measure of God's righteousness, what you would feel for this terrible evil brought down on you by another man is what God feels every time we sin. Righteousness Demands sacrifice for sin.
So again Jesus took on that responsibility so that you may live this life with a choice.

Also Why make hell and eternal punishment then?

Because we have been given this life to choose, not the next. Because God knows that if we are facing the pit then anyone whether they mean it or not will say or do whatever it takes to get into Heaven. Once you are in heaven how long into eternity do you think it will be before you start to feel like Satan and his followers?

We have been given this life to prove to ourselves in whom we love the Most. Our selves, philosophies, Traditions, and or religions, Or our God. God already knows the answer to this questions But we do not. He could have created those who would have chosen themselves over God to simply exist in Hell, But for everyone created to live in Hell this would not be fair. because God is righteous He has given us this life to prove to ourselves in whom we love the most. So when you are lying prostrate before the God you call evil and weak, you will know the truth when He judges your sin, and what you have chosen to do with this life.

 

[drich0150]

First off, hell is not eternal it is a just and fair punishment for the crimes we have done against God. When the punishment is over we have perished, and are gone, not tortured some more. this idea has been used over and over to try to scare people into Christianity, but it is a lie. many well meaning people believe it, but it is simply not taught in the Bible.

Could you leave the scripture you mentioned that makes you believe what you do.

 

[bibleblevr]

Could you leave the scripture you mentioned that makes you believe what you do.

Well that subject deserves a whole new tread otherwise this one will get derailed. In the interest of Christian cohesion in this thread and in the interest of sticking with the topics at hand, I probably should not have mentioned my annihilation stance. But if you want to talk about it, feel free to PM me, I did a study on this issue fairly recently so I can definitely rustle up some good verses/ arguments for you if you like.