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Why do YE Creationists insist on a simplistic literal reading of the bible?
- Thread starter Amora
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OK, then. That is some progress. But I still don't know what, specifically, your question was asking, so I still can't begin to answer it. Perhaps if you gave me a specific statement in that post that you disagree with......
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BrianJK
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You must be selecting some very liberal "scholars". Here again you are imposing your personal skepticism on the Bible. There is no other historical document of near this age for which we have any texts so close to the original. Yet you still demand closer...
And since God directly inspired the writers' words, it's pretty easy to determine what Jesus said and did.
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bhsmte
Newbie
Here is a small sample size:
Theological doctrines:
1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7
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BrianJK
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You say that God would not allow for incorrect results in dating systems which all start with the premise that God did not create everything the way He said He did and are calibrated off of one another.
You say that God told us to study nature and imply that His will is for the study to trump Scripture.
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BrianJK
Abdul Masih
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I guess I'll get back to you next week after I've written a paper, professor.
I find it interesting that people have to flood the board with what they consider contradictions, presumably because any one of those contradictions wouldn't stand so overwhelming someone is the only tactic.
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Good.
Let's start with the second one and get that out of the way. You are adding to what I said, just as you add to what the Bible says. I never said that the study of nature should trump Scripture. In fact, I said that it is Scripture that tells us to study nature. Since both are part of God's plan to teach us what He wants, they should not contradict one another, and neither should "trump" the other. The Bible tells us that it is profitable for the teaching of righteousnes. It does not tell us that it is inerrant in science.
Yes, Jesus once spoke about the days of Noah. That is not necessarily a claim that He believed that everything recorded in the legend of Noah is "gospel truth." We often talk about the days of King Arthur. Generally we just mean the entire early fuedal period, without regard to the specific period of Arthur's reign. And Arthur may not have been a king at all, but just the commanding general in the war against the Saxons. Just as Eisenhower was the commanding general during World War II, but George was King of England, Winston Churchill was Prime Minister, and FDR was President of the United States.
There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that the early chapters of Genesis are anything more than legendary history.
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This will probably surprise you, Brian, but I agree with you on this, though I would've phrase it more politely.
Many of the points on these errors and contradiction lists are mere quibbles, and only serve as a haystack in which the few needles of issues worth discussing get lost.
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BrianJK
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I wonder what your thoughts are on Romans 5:12-21.
Also, the Bible does not tell us that it CAN make errors.
I see nothing to indicate that Jesus thought the story of Noah was a myth. Where do you see that taught in Scripture?
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Paul is using the legendary history of the Garden in Eden to explain the Fall, our Sin Condition, and Jesus the Redeemer.
But we do know that men can and do make errors while reading the Bible. Read my signature. Can you say the same thing? I have always been willing to listen to other people's understanding of the scriptures and have several times accepted that my understanding at the time was the wrong one. Have you ever done so?
I see that you, like many fundamentalists and evangelicals equate the word "myth" with the word "lie." They are not at all the same. C S Lewis, even after becoming a Christian, called the Incarnation and the Crucifixion a myth. He said that it was the one great myth and it was even greater because it was true. Absolutely and historically true.
A myth is much like a parable: it is retold because of its emotional and spiritual power. The core story may be true, it may be exaggerated, it may be distorted. It may even have gone through so many changes that little, if any of the original changes are left. None of that makes it a myth. What makes it a myth is the Spiritual and emotional truth which remained constant through all the changes.
Be that as it may, I did not call the early chapters of Genesis "myth." I called them legendary history. There is still some discernable history in them, but there may or may not be some distortions. It reflects the stories that the early Israelite elders used to teach the next generation who they were and what their place was in the world.
Now, getting to your question, if you were to use the common expression "This tastes like [dog poo]!" Does that tell me anything one way or another about whether yo know what dog poo tastes like, and if you do, how you acquired that knowledge?
Similarly, Jesus use of the expression "in the days of Noah" tells us nothing about what He believed about the truth of the Noah story. I never claimed it did. And I don't appreciate you implying that I did.
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BrianJK
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How does the contrast of Jesus being one Man who redeemed many from sin to Adam being one man who brought sin on many hold up if Jesus was really one Man while Adam was only a legend?
Well let's see what it says.
You equate believing Scripture plainly to claiming to know all of God's mind. I don't make that equation. I am not trying to become God because I believe Scripture should be taken at its word. I have more than once conceded that my understanding has been wrong, but always to Scripture itself, rather than other things people put their faith in.
So we can assign a different label to it but we are still talking about the same thing. I believe what is written is all history. I seem to always get what you believe wrong, so I will leave you to tell me lest I guess wrong and offend you.
This is a common saying based on the smell of said object. I concede that it is possible this may have been a common saying in 1st Century Palestine, but I have no Biblical evidence that Jesus did not believe that Noah was exactly has he was portrayed in Genesis.
It appears that every time I try to divine what you believe from what you say, I get it wrong. Since this seems to offend you, perhaps it would be better to ask you to state your beliefs on these topics as completely and plainly as is possible and convenient.
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Subduction Zone
Regular Member
And as the saying goes: "There are none so blind as those that will not see."
Here is one simple example:
Can God do anything? Bible Contradictions - BibViz Project
"God can do anything.
Genesis 18:14
Is any thing too hard for the LORD? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
Job 42:1-2
Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.
Jeremiah 32:17
Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, [and] there is nothing too hard for thee:
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Mark 10:27
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Luke 18:27
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
There are some things that God cannot do.
Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out [the inhabitants of] the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Mark 6:5
And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed [them].
Hebrews 6:18
That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
"
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"Only a legend"? "Only"? There you go again, adding to what I said. We are all descended from one man. Genetics bears that out. At some time, long after our branch of the tree separated from the chimps and bonobos, it was almost entirely wiped out. There is much less diversity in our genes than there should be. If the Sin condition can be attributed the actions of one man (though Genesis attributes it to the entire community of the time), then it could well be that one common ancestor. And whether he called himself Adam, or that is just the name we call him, he can be held up as a counter-example to Jesus.
There you go again, changing what I said. I most definitely did not equate believing Scripture to claiming to know all of God's mind. I equated smugly assuming I never made mistakes in reading the Scriptures, (and assuming that anyone who read it and did not come to the same conclusions does not believe in the Bible is a clear symptom of that smugness) was the same as claiming to know all of God's mind. Yes, Scripture should be taken at its word, and that is why we have to study the word, becoming workmen, rightly dividing the word.
That means learning Hebrew and Greek idioms, learning about the cultures of the Bible, etc. It is not enough to take a cursory reading in a modern English translation. The only thing worse relying on the "soundbite factor" of isolated prooftexts with no context.
Not the same thing at all, but no longer all that important, since you are begining to realize you have not been me clearly, and that point was just preamble for the next point.
We have no evidence at all as to what Jesus believed. I assume that means we don't know what he believed and so we can't base any of our theology on "Jesus believed" or "Jesus didn't believe." You assume that he did believe, and base a chunk of you theology on it, a chunk with no Biblical backing. And when you encounter something that does not agree with that chunk of, even something we are told in the Bible to study, then you consider it wrong or even impossible because "it does not agree with the Bible."
It only offends me when you insult me or imply that I'm lying. I am stating my beliefs completely. The fact that you misinterpret them so readily should be a red flag to read other things (especially the scriptures) more carefully.
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frogman2x
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I have not been her long enough to have run into the posted contradictions. Since you and the person who posted them may not done enough study to understand what is actually being said, why do you give me 2 or 3?
kermit
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frogman2x
Guest
That is the usual nonsense of very liberal scholars.
If they can't prove what they say, and they can't, why put your faith in them.
For an omnipotent God to assure we have a relible Bible, even without the original mss, is much easier than creating the universe out of nothing.
The God of the liberal historians and theologians is much too small.
kermit
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EternalDragon
Counselor
You are aware that there is more evidence that we originated from one created human couple than that we originated from some ape like animal?
You stated there is much less diversity in our genes than there should be. What does that mean? Does it mean evidence for a recent original couple 6000 years ago? A recent bottleneck?
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Go on. Please. I am genuinely interested in seeing where you're going with this.
Don't you mean four couples about 4,400 years ago?
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