Why do we sin?

[Blake_]

The bible teaches that God removed our old hearts of stone and replaced them with that of the flesh. (Ezekiel 11:19). This is a gift born out of repenting (changing our minds) to Jesus. To my understanding, this new heart actually is what responsible for what drives our good works and fruitfulness of our new christian life. The good works of our faith are actually a product of a gift God has given us, our good works and turning from sin are actually not even under our own power, but from God's power, and the holy spirit that lives within our hearts.

That means that we have new desires, god's desires become our own in our hearts.

"And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God" (Romans 8:27)

So if we have God's desires in us, why do we sin? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the whole idea of having a new heart that God has given us.

Although God has given us a new heart, are our old desires still present?
If so, are the desires of our hearts sins themselves?

 

[fhansen]

We don't become robots-or non-existent-we're still in there too, together with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Man was always made for communion with God-Adam spurned that relationship. But "Apart from Me you can do nothing", Jesus tells us in John 15:5. Its a partnership, as we turn back to God in faith, a partnership in which He's gentle and kind, drawing and stretching us into increased righteousness or justice, transforming us into His image, chastising at times, writing His law on our minds over time, as we struggle with sin even, being refined.

This is because He desires our participation and cooperation in His work. The more we truly agree with Him, so to speak, or the more we will what He wills, the greater our own justice. After all, man was never created to be unjust, to sin IOW. And this justice, this transformation, is best described by the term "love", which is why the greatest commandments are what they are.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

The early Christians were more adept in obedience because most were poor and didn't overindulge in pleasures. Christ himself expresses that it is much easier for those such as them to reap salvation.

We live in a world of vanities, complexity, and corruption, which makes it harder for men to not sin then it was for the poor in the Apostle's time. The scriptures maintain a theme of such things being 'a sickness', which Christ takes away.

This is why it's important for modern men to learn the importance of being less narcissistic and more humble. We sin because we obtained forbidden knowledge of these things, and often lack the strength to keep them innocent and kosher.

 

[Steeno7]

So if we have God's desires in us, why do we sin?

The flesh.

 

[Soyeong]

We are set free from our slavery to our sin nature, so it is no longer our master and we are free to not sin in service another. However, we still have a sin nature.

 

[Steeno7]

We are set free from our slavery to our sin nature, so it is no longer our master and we are free to not sin in service another. However, we still have a sin nature.

Christians do not have a sin nature.

 

[fhansen]

Christians do not have a sin nature.

I agree with this. Christians just have "the flesh", same as Adam, except that fallen man, no longer subjugated to God and His law, lost control over his natural desires; the flesh knowing and having no boundaries on it's own.

 

[Douglas Hendrickson]

I agree with this. Christians just have "the flesh", same as Adam, except that fallen man, no longer subjugated to God and His law, lost control over his natural desires; the flesh knowing and having no boundaries on it's own.

Is not the first sentence contradicted by the second part of the second?

What doe "a sin nature" mean, if not the second part here?

 

[fhansen]

Is not the first sentence contradicted by the second part of the second?

What doe "a sin nature" mean, if not the second part here?

The problem with "sin nature" IMO, is that it implies that man gained a new nature, whereas the fall simply left man lost-from his Maker-with God's life in him now missing. This implies that man was wounded and lacking, prone to sin as a result, but not on account of a change in, or the addition of, a new nature. So "sin nature" is just less exact IMO, and can be misleading.

 

[GillDouglas]

The bible teaches that God removed our old hearts of stone and replaced them with that of the flesh. (Ezekiel 11:19). This is a gift born out of repenting (changing our minds) to Jesus. To my understanding, this new heart actually is what responsible for what drives our good works and fruitfulness of our new christian life. The good works of our faith are actually a product of a gift God has given us, our good works and turning from sin are actually not even under our own power, but from God's power, and the holy spirit that lives within our hearts.

That means that we have new desires, god's desires become our own in our hearts.

"And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God" (Romans 8:27)

So if we have God's desires in us, why do we sin? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the whole idea of having a new heart that God has given us.

Although God has given us a new heart, are our old desires still present?
If so, are the desires of our hearts sins themselves?

The new 'heart' He has given us allows for such things as spiritual discernment, communion with God, and freedom from the slavery of sin. However, while we are still living here in this flesh the old nature still clings to it. So while we are free from slavery we're still susceptible to its temptation. Over time, by the working of the Holy Spirit, a person becomes more resilient to the ways of the flesh.

 

[Steeno7]

Is not the first sentence contradicted by the second part of the second?

What doe "a sin nature" mean, if not the second part here?

The major cause of the "two natures" doctrine is the incorrect translation of the Greek sarx, the word for "flesh," as sin nature. A problem exacerbated by the NIV, which they have has corrected in the latest revision.

The NT is clear that when we were unregenerate we "were by nature children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3). But, as Christians, we "have become partakers of the divine nature, (2 Peter 1:4). These natures do not exist simultaneously, nor could they.

The flesh (sarx) speaks of those patterns of selfish thought and action and/or reaction, that have been developed in our lives and that stand opposed to God.

 

[Soyeong]

NT

 

[singpeace]

The bible teaches that God removed our old hearts of stone and replaced them with that of the flesh. (Ezekiel 11:19). This is a gift born out of repenting (changing our minds) to Jesus. To my understanding, this new heart actually is what responsible for what drives our good works and fruitfulness of our new christian life. The good works of our faith are actually a product of a gift God has given us, our good works and turning from sin are actually not even under our own power, but from God's power, and the holy spirit that lives within our hearts.

That means that we have new desires, god's desires become our own in our hearts.

"And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God" (Romans 8:27)

So if we have God's desires in us, why do we sin? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the whole idea of having a new heart that God has given us.

Although God has given us a new heart, are our old desires still present?
If so, are the desires of our hearts sins themselves?

The Scriptures also say in Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

Even saved, our minds must be renewed on a daily basis by the Word of God.

 

[Meowzltov]

The bible teaches that God removed our old hearts of stone and replaced them with that of the flesh. (Ezekiel 11:19). This is a gift born out of repenting (changing our minds) to Jesus. To my understanding, this new heart actually is what responsible for what drives our good works and fruitfulness of our new christian life. The good works of our faith are actually a product of a gift God has given us, our good works and turning from sin are actually not even under our own power, but from God's power, and the holy spirit that lives within our hearts.

That means that we have new desires, god's desires become our own in our hearts.

"And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God" (Romans 8:27)

So if we have God's desires in us, why do we sin? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding the whole idea of having a new heart that God has given us.

Although God has given us a new heart, are our old desires still present?
If so, are the desires of our hearts sins themselves?

You are asking some really really good questions and I really don't know. I have often wondered the same thing. My own church teaches that at baptism the stain of Original Sin is removed, which basically is saying the same thing as what you just said in fewer words. Yet we still sin, we still DESIRE to sin. How can that be? Dare I say it.... It makes me wonder if the teaching is flawed.

 

[fhansen]

You are asking some really really good questions and I really don't know. I have often wondered the same thing. My own church teaches that at baptism the stain of Original Sin is removed, which basically is saying the same thing as what you just said in fewer words. Yet we still sin, we still DESIRE to sin. How can that be? Dare I say it.... It makes me wonder if the teaching is flawed.

And yet even Adam sinned, prior to the Fall obviously. God, IMO, is drawing His creation into a greater holiness or righteousness, even if it first has to slip and fall into a more sinful state yet as a first step on that path, and if only so we can taste, like prodigals, the stench of the pigsty so we'll finally learn to appreciate and hunger for God, the truly good food, as we should. It's our wills that He's working on, so that ultimately we can say with sincerity what Adam refused to say, "Thy will be done", as we come to trust, and then obey, out of love. It's a process, the overcoming of sin and its attractiveness to us.

 

[Meowzltov]

And yet even Adam sinned, prior to the Fall obviously.

You're right. Adam sinned and didn't have a sinful nature. Excellent point.

 

[Job8]

You're right. Adam sinned and didn't have a sinful nature. Excellent point.

Indeed, Adam was created to have fellowship with God, and his spirit was alive (at creation) and able to commune with God. At the same time Adam and Eve had the God-given capacity to freely make choices for good or evil, for obedience or disobedience. They were what is technically "free moral agents" (as are all human beings).

Because they chose to sin and disobey, all of humanity was infected with the *virus* of the "sin nature" (or "the flesh", or "the old Adamic nature). In other words, all men (and women, and children) are sinners BY BIRTH AND BY CHOICE. And that is why Jesus said "YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN".

 

[GregoryTheNonTheologian]

our good works and turning from sin are actually not even under our own power

So if we have God's desires in us, why do we sin?

I think that the answer to your question lies in recognizing that your premise that our good works and turning from sin are not under our own power may not be true.

One of the following must be true:

(a) We are perfectly capable of doing good under our own free will, without the aid of God's grace. This is Pelagianism, and was condemned by the Church in the early 5th century.

or

(b) We are completely incapable of doing good under own free will, and only do good when compelled to do so by the grace of God. This is the teaching of Augustine, which took hold in the Church of Rome, but was rejected by the majority of Church Fathers. It seems that Augustine himself did not profess this doctrine adamantly towards the end of his life, but it took hold nonetheless.

or

(c) We are capable of doing good only when our own free will works in cooperation (the Greek Fathers called it "synergy") with God. This is the middle path, which was understood in the eastern Churches (i.e. Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Jerusalem). It continues to be the understanding of the Eastern Orthodox Church. The chief proponent of this particular viewpoint in the West was John Cassian, who was a contemporary of Augustine. In his discourse How human efforts cannot be set against the grace of God he writes:

AND so the grace of God always co-operates with our will for its advantage, and in all things assists, protects, and defends it, in such a way as sometimes even to require and look for some efforts of good will from it that it may not appear to confer its gifts on one who is asleep or relaxed in sluggish ease, as it seeks opportunities to show that as the torpor of man's sluggishness is shaken off its bounty is not unreasonable, when it bestows it on account of some desire and efforts to gain it. And none the less does God's grace continue to be free grace while in return for some small and trivial efforts it bestows with priceless bounty such glory of immortality, and such gifts of eternal bliss. For because the faith of the thief on the cross came as the first thing, no one would say that therefore the blessed abode of Paradise was not promised to him as a free gift, nor could we hold that it was the penitence of King David's single word which he uttered: "I have sinned against the Lord," and not rather the mercy of God which removed those two grievous sins of his, so that it was vouchsafed to him to hear from the prophet Nathan: "The Lord also hath put away thine iniquity: thou shalt not die."750 The fact then that he added murder to adultery, was certainly due to free will: but that he was reproved by the prophet, this was the grace of Divine Compassion. Again it was his own doing that he was humbled and acknowledged his guilt; but that in a very short interval of time he was granted pardon for such sins, this was the gift of the merciful Lord (Conferences, XIII 3)​

He goes on further to provide many, many examples in Scripture where both grace and free will work in concert in On the power of our good will, and the grace of God (Conferences XIII 9):

Whence human reason cannot easily decide how the Lord gives to those that ask, is found by those that seek, and opens to those that knock, and on the other hand is found by those that sought Him not, appears openly among those who asked not for Him, and all the day long stretches forth His hands to an unbelieving and gainsaying people, calls those who resist and stand afar off, draws men against their will to salvation, takes away from those who want to sin the faculty of carrying out their desire, in His goodness stands in the way of those who are rushing into wickedness. But who can easily see how it is that the completion of our salvation is assigned to our own will, of which it is said:

If ye be willing, and hearken unto Me, ye shall eat the good things of the land, [Isaiah 1:19] and how it is not of him that willeth or runneth, but of God that hath mercy [Romans 9:16]?

What too is this, that God will render to every man according to his works [Romans 2:6]; and it is God who worketh in you both to will and to do, of His good pleasure [Philippians 2:3]; and this is not of yourselves but it is the gift of God: not of works, that no man may boast [Ephesians 2:8,9]?

What is this too which is said: Draw near to the Lord, and He will draw near to you [James 4:8], and what He says elsewhere: No man cometh unto Me except the Father who sent Me draw Him [John 6:44]?

What is it that we find: Make straight paths for your feet and direct your ways [Proverbs 4:26 LXX], and what is it that we say in our prayers: Direct my way in Thy sight [Psalm 5:9 LXX], and establish my goings in Thy paths, that my footsteps be not moved [Psalm 16:5 LXX]?

What is it again that we are admonished: Make you a new heart and a new spirit [Ezekiel 18:31], and what is this which is promised to us: I will give them one heart and will put a new spirit within them [Ezekiel 1:19] and I will take away the stony heart from their flesh and will give them an heart of flesh that they may walk in Thy statutes and keep My judgments [Ezekiel 1:20].

What is it that the Lord commands, where He says: “Wash thine heart of iniquity, O Jerusalem, that thou mayest be saved [Jeremiah 4:14 LXX], and what is it that the prophet asks for from the Lord, when he says “Create in me a clean heart, O God [Psalm 50:12 LXX] and again: Thou shalt wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow [Psalm 50:9 LXX]?

What is it that is said to us: Enlighten yourselves with the light of knowledge [Hosea 10:12 LXX]; and this which is said of God: Who teacheth man knowledge [Psalm 94:10]; and: the Lord enlightens the blind [Psalm 145:8], or at any rate this, which we say in our prayers with the prophet: Lighten mine eyes that I sleep not in death [Psalm 12:3 LXX],​

unless in all these there is a declaration of the grace of God and the freedom of our will, because even of his own motion a man can be led to the quest of virtue, but always stands in need of the help of the Lord?
​

 

[Gottservant]

I don't know if I have ever been tempted to be tempted other than to move a mutation I don't think.

My understanding is that, if it is universal, and not in the law _ it never does more than move.

Once upon a time, this was the exception of the snake _ _ _.