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Why do we need the church?

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p@nd0ra

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Why do we need the church? Why do we even need religion?
All those moral precepts put forth in the 10 Commandments, the Golden Rule, the idea of helping the poor and the suffering, don't you think we would have figured that out on our own without some all-powerful deity to tell us?
I mean, do I really need a God to tell me that killing is bad?

So please tell me, because I am honestly curious, why do we need religion?
 
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godsmacked

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Why do we need the church? Why do we even need religion?
All those moral precepts put forth in the 10 Commandments, the Golden Rule, the idea of helping the poor and the suffering, don't you think we would have figured that out on our own without some all-powerful deity to tell us?
I mean, do I really need a God to tell me that killing is bad?

So please tell me, because I am honestly curious, why do we need religion?
Pandora, Great question . I know there will be and should be some more qualified Christians
who can expand on this , but i will at least try.
Lets start with "Religion" , religion is mans attempt to reach GOD and its easy to spot. Look at any "Religion" and you find a "works" philosophy , what do you have to do be good in GODs eyes or be loved by GOD.
Do we need Religion? if we could meet GODs expectations by doing enough of something then religion any religion would lead to GOD.
Christianity is a direct relationship with GOD through Jesus. we cant earn it ,we cant ever be good enough to stand in the presence of perfection.

Morals , the question is who gave us this basic knowledge of right and
wrong? if we got to decide on our own the world would be a much worse
place then it is. would we figure it out on our own? not.

Killing , Yes its bad. some people need to be killed. its also "thou shall not
Murder", not "thou shall not kill". We are called to defend the innocent and
those who cant defend themselves.

The church , Thats like saying do i need my wife?
the church described by Jesus is the group of believers
themselves,whether its 2 people at a table or 3,000 in a building. The church as denominations have different ideas how to implement that, but we all agree on the fundamentals.

Ask GOD. be sincere and ask humbly . Ask him to reveal himself to you.
GOD gave us everything he wants us to know about him in the bible, read it from cover to cover. I know it can get really dry. Dont let someone tell you who or what GOD is. If its his word (bible) and he really has gone out of his way to reach out too us then it will prove itself true.

That void inside you is there for a reason and only GOD can fill it.
I asked similar questions.
 
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calluna

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Why do we need the church? Why do we even need religion?
All those moral precepts put forth in the 10 Commandments, the Golden Rule, the idea of helping the poor and the suffering, don't you think we would have figured that out on our own without some all-powerful deity to tell us?
I mean, do I really need a God to tell me that killing is bad?

So please tell me, because I am honestly curious, why do we need religion?
The purpose of the creation may be to make a moral environment, so that humanity can be tested. Nobody needs to be told that murder (rather than killing) is wrong, or theft, or any action that gives an individual advantage at the expense of the group. That is natural law, provided by the molecules and energy that we all depend on. People who have no religion whatever have consciences simply because they live here in this universe. Just think, we could live in a condition where there is no such thing as danger, need, hardship, where merely to desire is to be gratified, instantly. Why not?

Before Christ, or Abraham, people had not only consciences, but the view that conscience outlasted the body, and that one would be answerable in an afterlife for one's deeds in this life. Since Christ, people have been even more convinced that conscience outlasts the body, and that there will be a future reckoning with that conscience; hence the involvement of many in supposedly Christian matters over the last 2000 years.

When Moses took the tablets down the mountain, he wasn't telling anyone what they did not know, except for the sabbath commandment- which is the clue to the whole Bible. The seventh day sabbath (rest) was just a pre-figurement, a promise, of the total and permanent salving of the conscience, the rest from guilt, guilt that we all of us ought to have, like the people before Abraham. (Many of us today need to catch up with them.) The true sabbath is the complete rest of the conscience that belongs to those who have put their trust in the work of Christ on the cross, who no longer have those commandments, or the commandments of natural law, nagging at them.

That's why we need religion- though it's not religion in the sense of being 'religious'. The real purpose of the Christ was and is to give people freedom and motivation to live as they should, so that no-one will take any action that gives them advantage at the expense of the group. That is all that matters in this world- people doing what is right for all, which is called love. Love is not sloppy, it's quite often tough, quite often unpopular, strangely enough, but it's always wise.

The church is just the collection of those very few who have decided to love, and by mutual help they increase loving action in the world. However, finding the church is not easy, due to simulation, and personal behavior is often not easy to check out.
 
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calluna

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Hi. :wave:

The link below is a great explaination on the Church.

Lumen Gentium
More like Opiatum Populorum. Countless are the hours that Christians have spent in attempting to explain to skeptics that faith in Christ is justified despite the horror story that is RCism, from the horror of Constantine to the present day. In fact, if these people were paid a reasonable rate for their time by the Vatican, Vatican City State and contents would have to go out of existence, though it would anyway if justice were done.
 
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MrPolo

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Why do we need the church?

As you will learn if you read Lumen Gentium that someone else posted, the Church is Christ perpetuated on earth. It is His body, and we cannot be saved unless we incorporate into His body. We also need the sacraments (e.g. 1 Pt 3:21, Jn 6:53, Matt 26:26, 1 Cor 10:16, etc...) which only the Church can give through properly ordained ministers (apostles' successors), whom you can see in Scripture receive a certain charism of the Spirit when hands are laid upon them (Act 8:18, etc...). All this is part of what it means to live our faith in Him.

Christ, also, of course, specifically said He would build a Church (Mt 16:18), which as has been noted is also the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15), through whom all things of divine revelation shall be understood (Jn 14:26). The Church also settles matters of dispute (Mt 18:17, Acts 15:4-11), etc...
 
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Cjwinnit

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The church is the community of the new covenant. Christ saves more than just one person. Throughout the Bible it can be seen how God acts on groups of people as well as on individuals. Take, for example, one of the latters in the New Testament, 1 Peter. Chapter 2 starts:

"1/ Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
2 /Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
3/ now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
4/ As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him—
5/ you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (NIV)

English is sometimes a poor language to translate into and carry meaning. Bear in mind that "you" can be singular and plural in English. In the letters of the NT it is almost exclusively plural.

It continues:

"9/ But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
10/ Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11/ Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.
12/ Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us."

We are a collection of believers united in Christ. We aren't called to be solo Christians. As believers in Christ we are to follow His calling to love God and to love our neighbour. It would seem a bit mad to preach this with our mouths and then to live for ourselves.

As it is written in Hebrews at Chapter 10:

"24/ And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
25/ Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching."

There are far more references to this through the Bible but I hope that sheds some light.
 
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MrStain

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True! And the RCC is Satan's mock-up version of it, set up to exterminate the Church.
Says the fella from the "Church of what's happenin now".

You shall know them by their fruits.
The church is the community of the new covenant. Christ saves more than just one person. Throughout the Bible it can be seen how God acts on groups of people as well as on individuals. Take, for example, one of the latters in the New Testament, 1 Peter. Chapter 2 starts:

"1/ Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.
2 /Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,
3/ now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.
4/ As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him—
5/ you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." (NIV)

English is sometimes a poor language to translate into and carry meaning. Bear in mind that "you" can be singular and plural in English. In the letters of the NT it is almost exclusively plural.

It continues:

"9/ But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
10/ Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11/ Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul.
12/ Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us."

We are a collection of believers united in Christ. We aren't called to be solo Christians. As believers in Christ we are to follow His calling to love God and to love our neighbour. It would seem a bit mad to preach this with our mouths and then to live for ourselves.

As it is written in Hebrews at Chapter 10:

"24/ And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
25/ Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching."

There are far more references to this through the Bible but I hope that sheds some light.
Nicely said, Cj! Let us be a people of God.
 
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calluna

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We are a collection of believers united in Christ.
We are not a collection of anything. We are merely people who have the use of the internet, and we may every one of us be thieves, or violent, or drug-addicts/suppliers, or fornicators, or sexual deviants. The 'net has plenty of those elsewhere, so why not here? What better place for those interested in promoting those activities than forums where that holy Jesus is under discussion?

And the same goes for the 'real world', because the worst people are attracted to the best, not because of any affinity, but because the best cramp the style of the worst. And that fact explains the so-called churches.
 
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Cjwinnit

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Hey Calluna.

We are not a collection of anything. We are merely people who have the use of the internet,

I wasn't in this case referring just to the people on this board, rather to Christians in general.

..and we may every one of us be thieves, or violent, or drug-addicts/suppliers, or fornicators, or sexual deviants. The 'net has plenty of those elsewhere, so why not here?

Probably. Whilst we may not have committed the crimes you have mentioned, at some point in our lives we have all failed to do the right thing. Paul says in his letter to the Romans (chapter 3):

"21/ But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22/ This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23/ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24/ and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." (emphasis mine)



(I've realized how many technical terms are used in this passage. For clarity;
  • "Justification" can be thought of as "to be made right with God",
  • "Grace" can be thought of as "undeserved favour"
  • "Redemption" can mean "Deliverance from punishment")
And the same goes for the 'real world', because the worst people are attracted to the best, not because of any affinity, but because the best cramp the style of the worst. And that fact explains the so-called churches.

It can be difficult to interpret this, as you could approach it from the "bad people like to bring good people down" angle, or "you catch more flies with honey then vinegar" argument. Not sure which (or any other) would be the Christ-like response.
 
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calluna

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I wasn't in this case referring just to the people on this board, rather to Christians in general.
Christians don't do that, because they don't on the 'net lay any claim to be Christians themselves, or give any impression that other posters are Christians. Any crook can jump in, and jump on the bandwagon, if they do that. One needs to have just arrived from Mars, ignorant of the newspapers and 2000 years of history, and also be quite unaware of all Biblical practice and warnings, to have any real excuse for giving the unworthy any recognition.
 
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calluna

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As you will learn if you read Lumen Gentium that someone else posted, the Church is Christ perpetuated on earth.
' I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. Because such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.' 2 Co 11:12-15
 
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MrStain

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' I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. Because such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.' 2 Co 11:12-15
Don't you worry! Equality with a heretic (pick & chooser) of your degree would be the last thing most Christians would want.
 
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