Why Do We Care?

[Nathan Poe]

Lets take your quote Phred and change Christians with say African-Americans

"but this is being marketed to Americans as a "good thing." African-Americans, who are the minority in this country, see the words 'Black candidate' and vote that way... Not knowing what they're really supporting.

or Asians or Mexicans or gays..yet no one has a problem with this..its only when non-thinking Christians vote as a block then you have a problem with it...

Says who? Anyone who votes out of blind obedience and/or stupidity is neglecting their responsibility as a citizen.

So what good is a vote if anyone can supercede the laws like a mayor(s)defying the Law and a ratified proposition by marrying gays..but thats ok with you because us stupid Christians being the majority are really dumb blobs and are homophobes and shouldn't have a say in society or schools...

Except the ones you're talking about don't want "a say" in societies and schools. They want the first and last word, and to hell with the rest of us... literally.

how come we don't have a consensus across the board if Christians are the majority and vote as a bloc like you suggest?...

Because "Christians" don't vote in a bloc. The loudest, most vocal uberfundies tend to, but of course, they're hardly a majority.

Your bias is very obvious...Could it be possible that many who vote..vote with their conscience AND understand the issues such that the proevo forces are left to using the courts to promote their minority agenda?..how about that scenario?

Computer: $800
Internet Connection: $200/year
Emergency Shut-Off for Irony Meter: Priceless.

 

[Ishmael Borg]

Of course, just like you want your beliefs taught.

I doubt Phred wants his beliefs taught. I know I don't want my beliefs taught. I want publically funded schools to teach general and specific scientific principles based on the conclusions of the majority of experts in the various disciplines. It has nothing to do with belief.

That is why we have ways in this country for people to work out their differences. At least it has been that way sense 1776 when the deists took over the country or at last the governement of this country. They have been feeding us propaganda ever sense about what a wonderful job they are doing of runnnig the show.

Huh? Even though it isn't relevant to the discussion anyway, what do you mean?

 

[Rage4Christ]

What you describe is not mutally exclusive to Christ.
Through the Lens of Christ could bring your conclusions into a spiritual perspective. Ethically and humanistically this is a good thing. Considering your position, just ponder the amount of history that is contained within the Christ story-- even if your sensibilities of evidence/choices preclude you from experiencing the grandeur of Christ, you still must consider the value of that message. Even if you only see it as a allegory, or example of what ancient and modern civilizations wrestle with what it is to be human. Perhaps you'll find what is Christlike within yourself? perhaps you already have, you just call it something different.

 

[Ishmael Borg]

What you describe is not mutally exclusive to Christ.
Through the Lens of Christ could bring your conclusions into a spiritual perspective. Ethically and humanistically this is a good thing. Considering your position, just ponder the amount of history that is contained within the Christ story-- even if your sensibilities of evidence/choices preclude you from experiencing the grandeur of Christ, you still must consider the value of that message. Even if you only see it as a allegory, or example of what ancient and modern civilizations wrestle with what it is to be human. Perhaps you'll find what is Christlike within yourself? perhaps you already have, you just call it something different.

I've read the gospels. I find the story of Christ to be moving, but this feeling is not exclusive to the gospels. Many works of fiction have moved me similarly.

 

[LorentzHA]

Why do we care whether God created us or god guided our evolution. What will we get out of it if eitherside is proven right? Will they win a prize? I don't get it, why is it important. Why aren't we focusing on the here and now, things that actually affect us. Is it about pride? If so, isn't pride a deadly sin?
Why is it so impotant?

To me, it is about finding truth vs. not fairy tales.

 

[LorentzHA]

At least it has been that way sense 1776 when the deists took over the country or at last the governement of this country. They have been feeding us propaganda ever sense about what a wonderful job they are doing of runnnig the show.

And who do you propose should "run the show"..hmmm, let's see who should it be....???? I KNOW... right wing, fanatical Christians!! Yeah that is it!! Right- will be anyone who has been brainwashed similarly..wrong will be everyone else.

 

[Physics_guy]

I care about this debate because if this country were led by religious fundamentalist whack-jobs like napajohn and they stopped teaching one of the foundational theories of modern biology as well as throwing out large pieces of astronomy, physics, chemistry, geology, etc. we would very quickly become a third world country unable to feed its population!

Also, I really like correcting exceedingly bad science put out as "arguments" for creation by dishonest and ignorant creationists like napajohn.

 

[Phred]

Lets take your quote Phred and change Christians with say African-Americans

Lets not. For one thing, I don't believe your analogy is accurate. An African-American voting block is trying to ensure that their voice is heard. Fundamentalist Christians are trying to make their voice is the ONLY one heard. It's the difference between expressing ideas and enforcing them. Gay marriage is a topical example.

its only when non-thinking Christians vote as a block then you have a problem with it...

I have a problem with anyone who votes without thinking... no matter who they are.

So what good is a vote if anyone can supercede the laws

The majority is not always right. That's why we elect representatives and don't vote on each and every law ourselves. We trust that our elected reps will take the time to understand the issues and vote in our best interest. That doesn't always work, but it's the idea.

like a mayor(s)defying the Law and a ratified proposition by marrying gays..

The mayor did violate a law. The California Supreme court has stopped the weddings... but now the law will be called into question. If it's unconstitutional, then the law is wrong and will be changed. I notice you have no problem with violating the law if it supports your belief, I didn't see you using the two-ton monument to the Ten Commandments as an example...

but thats ok with you because us stupid Christians being the majority are really dumb blobs and are homophobes and shouldn't have a say in society or schools...

By your logic we'd still have slavery in this country.

how come we don't have a consensus across the board if Christians are the majority and vote as a bloc like you suggest?...

Thank goodness they don't... but the number of people who support fundie ideas is far fewer than the number who vote for candidates because they proclaim they are for "family values" and are "Christian". Clever marketing... And anyone who disagrees is labeled "liberal" and "leftist".

Your bias is very obvious...

Pot, meet kettle...

Could it be possible that many who vote..vote with their conscience AND understand the issues such that the proevo forces are left to using the courts to promote their minority agenda?..how about that scenario?

Our system has checks and balances for a reason. When the courts strike down a law because it's invalid, that's what they're there for. If protecting the constitution is a minority agenda then you've made my point for me.

 

[Phred]

Of course, just like you want your beliefs taught.

Of course, you're referring to evolution. Which, by a perponderance of the evidence, is what should be taught. You'd like to classify it as a "belief" so that you can insert your misguided thoughts alongside it.

That is why we have ways in this country for people to work out their differences.

Yup... ways you're trying to circumvent. Checks and balances... But when the courts rule against you they're leftist, liberal and infringing upon your rights. Funny how that works huh? You can elect your representatives, even the president. But you can't force your agenda past the courts... So they're demonized.

At least it has been that way sense 1776 when the deists took over the country or at last the governement of this country. They have been feeding us propaganda ever sense about what a wonderful job they are doing of runnnig the show.

And almost all those "deists" claimed to be Christian. But not "true christians" in your eyes. So now they're labeled too. This is the other danger in letting fundies have their way... oh, they'll use all Christians to get their way, but once they're in charge any brand of Christianity but pure literalism will be branded "evil" and discredited. It's their way or the highway...

 

[Arkanin]

Why do we care whether God created us or god guided our evolution. What will we get out of it if eitherside is proven right? Will they win a prize? I don't get it, why is it important. Why aren't we focusing on the here and now, things that actually affect us. Is it about pride? If so, isn't pride a deadly sin?
Why is it so impotant?

I learn things by debating here. Also, I am bothered by people who claim Christianity is "True", because that is an unfounded statement. No one can prove or disprove the theory of evolution or theistic theories. We might show one or the other is more or less reasonable.

 

[aziel92]

The reason why we should care about the origins of life, the universe and everything (the answer is not 42! hehe) is that many people feel that science has disproven God, that He is a myth, psychological phenomena ect. Because of this, they believe that religion is unnecessary, that they can take care of themselves and most importantly, since their is no God, that what Jesus did for us on the cross is has no impact or value. Christians, for the most part, believe that science shows us that God does exist, its just the level or amount of God's intervention with creation and such that is disagreed upon (the spectrum spans from he started the first organism and perhaps "helped" evolution along to he created us all whole in 7 days). What should be important or the focus of what we as christians say to athiests or non-believers regarding God and science is that science does show the necessity of Divinity and the evidence does point to a higher power. Why athiests are athiests I think has a large part to do with the evidence for creation (universe and life) being presented as a completely natural process with no need of a higher being. However, the universe does intrinsicly point us to a higher power and this needs to be presented, more so than exactly how or how much.

 

[Phred]

The reason why we should care about the origins of life, the universe and everything (the answer is not 42! hehe) is that many people feel that science has disproven God, that He is a myth, psychological phenomena ect.

It's convenient to remember that there are something like 10,000 different gods people worship. Science will never disprove the existence of a god. But it may falsify the scriptures that many use as a foundation for belief in their gods. Genesis, literally interpreted, is falsified by science. This is a direct contradiction with some beliefs.

Because of this, they believe that religion is unnecessary, that they can take care of themselves and most importantly, since their is no God, that what Jesus did for us on the cross is has no impact or value.

I believe religion is useless as a tool to bring us nearer to God. If, as many believe, God created this universe and everything in it, then the study of the universe - science - will bring us nearer to God than any religion ever could.

<snip>However, the universe does intrinsicly point us to a higher power and this needs to be presented, more so than exactly how or how much.

You'll see what you wish to see. Science shows no evidence supporting the existence of any gods.

 

[Nathan Poe]

The reason why we should care about the origins of life, the universe and everything (the answer is not 42! hehe) is that many people feel that science has disproven God, that He is a myth, psychological phenomena ect.

Well, much of what was previously attributed to God has be explained. It's not God per se that's been disproven, it's the God-of-the-Gaps who gets shoehorned into every crack of human ignorance who's on the run...

But life, the universe and everything doesn't lose its wonder just because we know how it works.

A miracle doesn't stop being a miracle just because we can explain it in the classroom.

Because of this, they believe that religion is unnecessary, that they can take care of themselves and most importantly, since their is no God, that what Jesus did for us on the cross is has no impact or value.

Apples and Oranges. Jesus preached salvation, not ignorance. Science is completely compatable with his message.

Christians, for the most part, believe that science shows us that God does exist, its just the level or amount of God's intervention with creation and such that is disagreed upon (the spectrum spans from he started the first organism and perhaps "helped" evolution along to he created us all whole in 7 days).

Science neither shows nor cares about the existence of God. Science shows what was done and how it was done. Who did it is a question for the theologicians...

What should be important or the focus of what we as christians say to athiests or non-believers regarding God and science is that science does show the necessity of Divinity and the evidence does point to a higher power.

Except that it doesn't. Hence the problem.

Why athiests are athiests I think has a large part to do with the evidence for creation (universe and life) being presented as a completely natural process with no need of a higher being. However, the universe does intrinsicly point us to a higher power and this needs to be presented, more so than exactly how or how much.

This needs to be proven first.