Why do We Call JW's a "Cult?"

[PROPHECYKID]

Well I can agree the way of truth is a narrow road that few find,
but I'd have to debate you on the 144000 theory shared with me, because: Revelation 14:3,4.
The 144,000 were male virgins and first fruits.

Still, knowing the truth does not garantee salvation. The Demons believe and shudder.

Being set appart, may mean one is set appart for destruction in some passages of scripture.

Still, how do these theories make a cult or break it? There is no law against thinking. Yeshua will separate sheep from goats based on the Mitzvot (good works) we do and do not do. (Matthew 25) Really that is the only way we can judge a person/group. What do they do for their fellow human beings. It is how we truly reveal the Torah written on our hearts IMO
bananna

These labels just make it easier to persecute a particular group of people. If you don't believe things the may they believe it in the mainstream, just call them a cult. Paul was a pretty strong leader, he even put Peter in his place at one time and Paul was accused of being in a cult.

Stranger, you say that no one under grace should teach another under grace anything because God is supposed to teach us all. Didn't Paul teach timothy? The scriptures do tell us to teach each other.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Can you stop with you false claims already. I guess you believe that since you are under grace, God has taught you everything you know and you learned nothing from anyone else? God will never teach you things that are not in the bible. Did God also teach you that there will be a third resurrection?

 

[steve4.truth]

Well I can agree the way of truth is a narrow road that few find,

exactly! The concept that anything "unorthodox" must be right goes against Jesus' teaching on the narrow road. The majority of people in the western world are "Christian" and "orthodox". But just look around us! Are we acting like Christ? The crime, hatred and greed so rampant today tells me that "orthodox Christianity" is on the BROAD ROAD that leads to destruction!!

but I'd have to debate you on the 144000 theory shared with me, because: Revelation 14:3,4.
The 144,000 were male virgins and first fruits.

That's fine. I don't argue about the exact number. We understand "virgin" to imply that they have stayed "no part of the world" unlike Babylon the great, the harlot in chapters 17 and 18 (world empire of false religion) who commits fornication (definitely not a virgin) with the kings of the earth. And they are firstfruits in that they are in the first resurrection to spirit life in heaven for the purpose of assisting Jesus in ruling over the "new earth".
The important part to me is that 1. the purpose of people living in heaven is to restore Jehovah's fatherly rule on the earth--Rev. 5:9,10 And they sing a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.
2. Those living in heaven (the kings) must be a limited number. If every citizen of America was part of the government and lived in Washington DC, who would they rule over? Similarly, if everyone lived in Heaven (the capital city-new Jerusalem) as kings with Jesus, who would they rule over. Citizens always make up the majority, not the government.
3. God intended humans to live on earth. That's why we have stomachs and taste buds!--to eat food. Lungs are made for oxygen! The idea of people being changed into spirit persons to live in heaven can't be found in the OT because God's purpose for mankind in general is to live forever on the earth. Ps. 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Still, knowing the truth does not garantee salvation. The Demons believe and shudder.

Being set appart, may mean one is set appart for destruction in some passages of scripture.

Still, how do these theories make a cult or break it? There is no law against thinking. Yeshua will separate sheep from goats based on the Mitzvot (good works) we do and do not do. (Matthew 25) Really that is the only way we can judge a person/group. What do they do for their fellow human beings. It is how we truly reveal the Torah written on our hearts IMO
bananna

I totally agree. Many JW's will be destroyed if their heart in not right. And many non-JW's will be resurrected to live forever. This was one of the teachings of our organization that attracted me. We are taught that there are many good people out there and that only God can judge. God will decide who is given eternal life--not just because they are JW. At the same time, God has always used one unified group on earth to do His will. At first it was the family of Abraham, then the nation of Israel, and then the Christian congregation. He has never used a variety of religions who are fighting with each other. In Mt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come. This indicates that right before the end, God would again use a unified, international religion to preach the good news about the kingdom, God's heavenly government, led by Jesus, that will restore the earth to Jehovah's fatherly rule and the resulting peace, love and harmony that will delight all citizens of the "new earth". Who else do you know that is in every country--known for their preaching work, other that Jehovah's witnesses. At the same time, that doesn't mean that every JW is doing things right, or that every non-JW is doing things wrong. It just means that God is accomplishing His purposes through an organization so that a "testimony unto all the nations" can be preached.

 

[stranger]

God admonished us to love one another... And the Lord isn't dum.. so therefore it works... break down the barriers... there is power in the truth...

I think you may see that it is God who breaks down the barriers, albeit that the holy spirit when it baptises all flesh only reminds folks of what they know already, that lovingness makes one happy and sin lets one down every time eventually ... thus when one knows the truth instead of listening to divided stories of sinners in religion and politics in this world, many are later saved [Rev 7:9-10] ... that being why the few are saved first, perfected in love to lead the politics and religion of God in the kingdom, the few [Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-4] saints who stop sinning in this world are the king-priests of the kingdom... that world mas religion of sinners is wrong, proved by this passage too, anyone with eyes to see knows that these things haven't yet happened, but sinners claim they have [and countless many who will be destroyed believe the sinners who claim to have the spirit and dress up like OT priests cos' they need to con folks they have authority of God... but spirit baptism is the authority of God, and divided religion simply cannot be being led by one truth... thus indeed we know it is led by Satan of course ... do they then lie when they say they believe scripture, the scripture resolves that easily and repeatedly... the problem for them that they need billions to support their expensive lands and buildings and sinners in fancy clothes , etc ... a few saints is no use to modern religion , but there are but a few saints for now Matt 7:14

Joel2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

I simply do not see my son or most other sons prophesying one truth of God... I see divided religion of sinners who following Satan as Jesus said mass religion will [Rev 13:3-4]

Jesus also tells us how much success one would have teaching sinners the truth if one had been taught of God ... 144,000 saints by the time of Jesus return and the congregation of saints never dying out means but a couple of thousand on average alive at any one time, now even...

besides that that is not mass religion and they are not sinners any longer , they do not teach one another cos' they all know from God [compare with religion and its 'priest schools' ... hundreds of thousands of deceived men ordained by sinners to delude the masses in Satan-speak about the scriptures and Jesus and God]

the task of the saints , to be loving [not sin] as they find the scattered lost House of Israel's descendants living as gentiles amongst the gentiles... how ?

Simply by witnessing the true gospel [including the anointing of Jesus as king of Israel by Mary , never mentioned in mass religion -

Mark 14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

more witness of Jesus proving the nature of religion in this world, not seeking the House of Israel, not teaching the true gospel, not baptised of the holy spirit, led by sinners for sinners ... for Satan

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Why then not do what Jesus commanded saints to do if one wants to be baptised of the spirit , or indeed wait to be baptised before even attempting to teach sinners so one can find the House of Israel ?

however much one wants to, one cannot defeat all Satan.s lies of religion accumulated over millenia of intense deception of sinners without god's truth from God Himself promised to all the very few who will follow Jesus in this world [John 16:13]

If one is not so baptised , knows all truth and the future before death, then one only ends up spreading lies to the gentiles eager for the lies of religion of Satan.... OK , someone has to do it else Satan won't confess his blasphemy [2Thess 2:24] and be killed [Ezek 28] to shut him up for a thousand years whilst the few establish the kingdom come [on earth but not on this earth, as Jesus states, as for now it is only in the hearts and mind of the few saints]

One cannot love God without His truth from Him, not because of oneself, but because oneself is led astray by Satan to live the world's way of lies , lies which most folks us to get what they think they want... nut of course they will not be so pleased when the consequences catch up with this world...

So JWs are not the only cult in this world, Catholicism, Protestantism, and thousands of other religious groups are so obviously divided , not led by the holy spirit into one truth in their sinner priests' or congregations' lives ...the bible simply proves the point by disproving most of their dogmas and doctrines when taken as a whole united truth of God...

not that religion of sinners is a problem for God, it is simply the means to try the love of saints and one giant trap for Satan's pride to fall into along with pride in his lies of the many sinners who serve as his ministers pretending to be holy , but rather obviously never being baptised to know one truth of God and the future...

the few saints meanwhile are themselves scattered worldwide seeking the next generation of saints amongst the gentiles where God scattered the House of Israel long before He scattered the Jews [House of Judah] ... there are few indeed for this harvest work, and billions to tell the truth which so few an hear , a simple truth that Jesus is the Messiah come to unite the Jews with teh lost idol-worshipping House of Israel, now forgiven under THEIR new covenant with God [read who it is with, those whose fathers broke the old covenant - Heb 8:8-12]

again it is the bible that proves the words of mass religion, taught as gospel , are a lie ...but ironically they are good news in a way, since the gentiles would not be saved without Satan being taken out of the way, so Israel's remnant can set up the kingdom for the later redemption of the gentile masses [Rev 7:9-10] who are undeniably destroyed with this earth [Matt 7:13]
long AFTER Jesus returns... all sinners are utterly destroyed in the destruction of the earth, but ironically the spirits of the religious sinners that deceive folks now all still return to god at death, ready for the mass resurrection for the unjust in the new earth once the kingdom ha been set up by the remnant saints of Israel of this life...

Can many hear this now, will any check this and prove it from scripture ... you know te naswer from the above...

so , as many find the hard way, it i no use doing other than Jesus commands if one wants to follow him :-

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Satan made up many lie, but one can find out who the House of Israel were from the OT , how today they are living as gentiles and still worshipping idols [never having accepted Judaism, never having become Jews as many Jews claim] :-

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

There is little point then in singling out JWs , they are not even the only one's going house to house :-

Luke 10:2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Enough said, Satan is the god of this world's recognised mass religions of sinners... very few indeed listen to what Jesus said and do it ... few CAN... because few are baptised of the spirit, few can enter the kingdom from this world, though they bring the kingdom near everyone on earth [in themselves] seeking the lost House of Israel...

 

[stranger]

Well I can agree the way of truth is a narrow road that few find,
but I'd have to debate you on the 144000 theory shared with me, because: Revelation 14:3,4.
The 144,000 were male virgins and first fruits.

God chose the firstfruits [long ago said who they will be , e.g, Exodus 19:6] ... they were not born , did not choose themselves... as He says , chosen for HIS sake, not theirs, they REBELLED as sinners, God changes them , not themselves, with His truth, His spirit, His love , for His sake of His promise despite they break His rule of love , not because they kept it ... because the promises to Israel must be kept regardless of the rebellion of Israel against God's law , as witnessed in Israel' own Law and Prophets ... hence the new covenant with both Houses [lines of kings, nations] of Israel [not just the Jews] ... many Jews claim Israel is united, that the House of Israel already returned to the Jews and accepted Judaism, but the Prophets say otherwise throughout the scriptures , and God through moses tells us the House of Israel continue worshipping idols and living as gentiles after He scatters them, long before the Jews were scattered

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

It is clear I think that Jews will not accept idol-worshippers as Jews, and idol-worshippers are not following Judaism... add to this that the Jewish prophets and saints all distinguish the House of Israel from the Jews, even longs after Jesus is dead...

and of course the Jews do not have one king uniting them in one truth of God , they are if anything more divided than ever [albeit largely because of some extreme work of Satan to make sure they disobey God by occupying the Holy Land by force, not by waiting for God to give it to them ... sadly the punishment of Israel by God for disobedience is more harsh than other nations because they should know better by now ... Jerusalem, as their own scripture states , is a trap for Jews , the mass slaughter is far from over , yet Jews continue to ignore prophecy of their own scriptures about their punishment yet again at hands of Satan ,before God turns to exact punishment of the gentiles in the wrath of God ]

If God required the 144,000 to be all males then why would anyone question that ...but the scripture says women who live as men can take the role of men ... there is always a problem with the quite legitimate hyperbole of language if taken literally ... language is nowhere near as precise and pedantic as logic ...

it is however clear that most of Jesus' documented followers were men, but far from all...

As for 'virgins' , the term isused in contra-distinction to those defiled of 'women' , and the eventually world-united religion of men [Rev 13:3-4] i referrd to in scripture as the great harlot... so it is not sex which is the issue here, but the fact that religion [even of the Jew] goes 'a-whoring' after the power of the state ...this symbolism/idiom is used extensively from one end of scripture to the other...
Paul, a Jew, make it clear that saints are NOT defiled by marriage, there is no sin in sex , just problems in the flesh with marriage of saints because of the tasks set them by God conflicting with pleasing their spouse...
​

Still, knowing the truth does not guarantee salvation. The Demons believe and shudder.

the many religious of this earth get to shudder in turn [Matt 7:13] ... Jesus will take none still sinners by his return , states as much , and most religious folks die still sinners , even their sinner priesthoods... even most Jews...

Being set apart, may mean one is set apart for destruction in some passages of scripture.

Indeed , setting the few apart automatically set the many apart :-
Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

but its a well to remember that the countless amny sinners of this earth are destroyed with the earth [Matt 7:13] but nevertheless are saved later [Rev 7:9-10] ... it is only the religion of sinners teaches that one must be saved now or not at all, not God ... so one must choose whether to believe God or sinners...

most of course choose to believe sinners, and that is indeed one way of seeing why few are saved now, many later ... but also one should note that it is god's giving or withholding bapti of the spirit which makes the difference between saint and sinner in THIS life , later the resurrected sinners are judged by their righteousness in the kingdom after resurretion, not by grace of the new covenant with Israel...

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

It means no-one is judged now , contrary to almost all religions of sinners ... that death is indeed the ONLY wages of sin , and righteousness in the new earth kingdom indeed wipes out memory of all sin of this world ... one sees why it would be a disaster for sinners to believe thi , so God deludes them a while , withholding the spirit for now to the many [again religion of sinners teaches otherwise, since how else can one attempt to justify sinners as 'priests' and 'rabbis' , and indeed the ones who claim to be 'fathers', or 'in place of Christ', etc, etc ...]

Still, how do these theories make a cult or break it? There is no law against thinking. Yeshua will separate sheep from goats based on the Mitzvot (good works) we do and do not do. (Matthew 25) Really that is the only way we can judge a person/group. What do they do for their fellow human beings. It is how we truly reveal the Torah written on our hearts IMO
bananna

well aside from God not requiring us to judge anyone in this earth, and He being the judge anyway ... only giving right judgement by His truth to a few for now, ad they NOT judging anyone now because they know the role of apostate religion of Jews and gentile sinners...

I agree that one can know saints by their good works, but tht is no reason whatsoever not to love sinners , lest one becomes a sinner by not loving all men... but the point perhaps is rather that it is God who makes saints now of a few , for His sake, for sake of His promises ... if one is a saint then it is down to spirit bptism, not from oneself... that the bands of sin bind everyone else, and mas religion , in Satan's bid to be the god of all men, is only part of God's plan to begin the humbling of Satan by not just making him subject to death like jesus, but killing him justly for sin [unlike the unjust killing of Jesus by Satan's lies]... not insignificant that they both die under accusation of blasphemy under Jewish law...

so God requires the delusion of the masses by Satan-led religion of sinners pretending to be holy... it is the only way to get Satan to confess blasphemy and be convicted to death for it justly [a he is manifest as a Jew of the tribe of Judah, else most Jews would not accept him as the Messiah, as Jesus' revelation implies they will -Rev 13:3-4]
[2Thess 2, Ezek 28, Isaiah 14]

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

you will not find many that can accept this scripture ... but then you should not expect that many would ,despite it being written by a Jewish saint ...

 

[stranger]

These labels just make it easier to persecute a particular group of people. If you don't believe things the may they believe it in the mainstream, just call them a cult. Paul was a pretty strong leader, he even put Peter in his place at one time and Paul was accused of being in a cult.

It is easy to forget that the disciples' role is to find the lost House of Israel ... any teaching of the gentiles is incidental to their task because the House of Israel are living as gentiles amongst gentiles and mot do not even know they are desended from Jacob and never accepted Judaism nor had any connection with Jews

WHEREAS Paul is sent to teach the gentiles about Israel... Paul's churches are churches teaching predominantly sinners who will not be saved/redeemed/translated in this lifetime, in this earth., the saints main task is finding the next generation of saints, not teaching sinners about saints...

but note that saints have no need to teach asaints as saints know from God, and sinners have NO ORDINATION from God to teach sinners, only saints are so instructed , but in fact almost all who cll themselves priests in this world are indeed just sinners, blind leading the blind... just as God says will be , must be ...

It makes no sense either to regard persecution as a disadvantage, the saints are all persecuted, most to death, in perfecting their love...

Stranger, you say that no one under grace should teach another under grace anything because God is supposed to teach us all. Didn't Paul teach timothy? The scriptures do tell us to teach each other.

Again you did not read all the scripture before writing that, the new covenant itself states that no-one under its grace will teach anyone else under its grace , for the simple reason that God teaches all under grace, they have no reason to be taught by anyone but God .. Heb 8:8-12]

That the saints teach sinners is inevitable, they are looking for the lost House of Israel amongst gentile sinners , the remnant of Jacob's descendants living as gentiles whose fathers broke the old covenant [by idol worship which their sons continue in, never accepting Judaism , never becoming Jews]

saints teach sinners, but have no need to teach saints because saints know from God in spirit baptism... and sinners teach sinners religionof endless variety, but it ain't the truth , not only because it is in ountless varieties , but because it is inconsistent with the scripture as a WHOLE truth [and the scripture must be whole else it is not all the word of God]

Can you stop with you false claims already.

Rather you have not even understood what the new covenant says [Jer 31:31-34], that God alone trusts the teaching of His few saints only to Himself , they ahve no need of scripture or of the religion of sinners, but kn0w all truth and the future from God [John 16:13] by His holy spirit... why would you even think they would teach each other ...
Paul has a bigger task educating gentiles about Israel's role in their salvation... and inevitably he finds some saints too, but deals with far more sinners than the disciples...because he is sent to the gentiles, they are sent to the House fo Israel AMONGST the gentiles...

You really need to repent your false witness against me in public without even hearing my reply to your unnecessary presumptions ... it doesn't help anyone ...the ad hominem attacks

I guess you believe that since you are under grace, God has taught you everything you know and you learned nothing from anyone else?

Why presume , judge, and condemn when you could just ask an find out your mistake , not make a fool of yourself...

Quite frankly what I believe matters nothing here, I am only discussing what the scriptures say [mostly on presumption that folks have at least read and understood what they are talking about in the WHOLE scripture ... but I see that it is not the case , and folks turn to ad hominem rtaher than change their beliefs in reproof to the scripture explaining what it really means... itself... not by me, not by you, not by anyone but the saints and prophets qualified by the holy spirit to do so ...

God will never teach you things that are not in the bible.

I never suggested that He would, not ever... so why mke up straw-men... but of course the original scripture we do not have and all copies of it are different ... o we know men messed with it when making those supposed copie, Jews and Chrsitians alike, because of religious bias... and we know the translations are desperately biased too, the errors in translation are thousands and mostly rather obviously false from other scriptures but held by the known trnslators' religion at the time [religion has fashions , just like science, in its perversion of God's truth required by Satan ... see my other posts for a discussion of this as written in scripture]

Did God also teach you that there will be a third resurrection?

God is love and is no regarder of persons... to love all men clearly God will bring everyone to understand His truth , else love and thus God would have failed , 'eternally failed' as some/many sinners would have it...

the scripture of the prophets not only states God can and will save all men and it is His pleasure to do so and none can deny him, but Jesus says so too and the saints ... the early church too believed so ,which is of course why Satan's churches deny it and 'excommunicate' even saints for saying so as in the early church...

one cannot have salvation of all men if there is no resurrection after a second death for sin...

so God, the prophets, Jesus , the saints, all tell me there must be a third resurrection trough scripture , and through being aware of love, being aware that God is love [not the unbelievably unjust, unloving monster taught by most religion of sinners to be their god ... but then we know the god of sinners is Satan , the saints and Jesus and prophets and God tell us so, God is love, sin is unloving ... but God uses mass sinner religion for His purpose for a while , so one should not be surprised when few will believe the scriptures that show God is not the unjust monster their sinner priests make Him out to be , He simply does not favour any sinner over any other no matter how many times they cry 'Lord , lord' as they continue to disobey Jesus, continue to sin to their deaths, fail to obey him and love because they cannot love without spirit baptism and God baptises but a few for now , all are baptised later - but all are not even resurrected to be able to be baptised until the second resurrection]

 

[webboffin]

Just wondering though if they are teaching bad things then to why are they peaceful earth wide? Catholics and protestants have been in wars for generations yet each church claims to preach correctly about Christ's love and follow in his footsteps.
Early Christians didn't fight people. I cannot imagine Christ blessing his followers to go fight in human wars like priests and preachers have done.

 

[stranger]

Just wondering though if they are teaching bad things then to why are they peaceful earth wide? Catholics and protestants have been in wars for generations yet each church claims to preach correctly about Christ's love and follow in his footsteps.
Early Christians didn't fight people. I cannot imagine Christ blessing his followers to go fight in human wars like priests and preachers have done.

What Jesus reveals in his revelation 13:3-4 is :-
.... all the world wondered after the beast.
and they worshipped the dragon...

only the few [Matt 7:14] do not worship the image of a god who allows continued sin , Satan :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

... after Satan's brief rule of all mass religion and hence all the earth
Jesus returns,
and Satan is bound in death a thousand years
[see Ezekiel 28, Isaiah 14 for his slaying and 2Thess 2:4 explains God's reason to justly killing him]

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

but note that Jesus takes no sinners when he leaves the earth to the wrath of God :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you:
depart from me,
ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say,
I tell you, I know you not whence ye are;
depart from me,
all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure,
having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his.
And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ
depart from iniquity.

Thus we see that Jesus, as he says
did not come to bring peace
but division of the many 'goats' [sinners] following Satan
from the sheep [saints] following him

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth?
I tell you, Nay;
but rather division:

Thus we find Satan will offer the world world peace now
as an incentive to follow him...
the 'New Word Order' seems exactly this
the unity of religion as a supposed coming together of mankind in love,
but sin is not loving
and sin continues unabated under Satan...
so we know all mass religion is of Satan,
as we could have seen from its division that it is not one truth of God ,
but then Satan unites it
and gains power over all men ,
just one world army supposedly keeping the peace,
but they do so by insisting on worship of this false god
that allows continuing sin , not love...
the penalty for not doing so is death
even by beheading as scripture indicates
[and exists under sharia law today as a punishment ]

Satan thus becomes world dictator for three and a half years
and none but a few saints to stand against his lies,
they most being beheaded for their refusal to accept Satan as a god ...
and in the end he is assassinated for his blasphemy
and the tyranny ends,
but then there is a terrible time as God
cannot save sinners from the consequences of sin ,
men have to be allowed to see where sin leads...
more wars for power,
more mass starvation of the poor,
plagues,
mass vulcanism that blots out the sun
and causes crop failure
and ironically global cooling ...
earth's axis wobbles 'shaking the stars'
and the earth trembles [earthquakes caused by changes in sea level]

but all the dead of this earth are resurrected as Jesus says :-
[again the churches disagree with Jesus, but then you see why perhaps]

Revelation 20:13 ...death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I mean , one should really read what Jesus says
if one is going to even try to follow him in loving,
but as you see,
billions claim to but don't even know what he says ,
and they follow sinners who claim authority to teach other than Jesus did,
but many call themselves 'Christians'...
perhaps you begin to get the picture ...
ALL are released from 'hell' [Hades', sheol] ,
Jesus says so [above] ...
Jesus went to hell too and suffered no 'eternal torment' ,
so one should really be able to see it is Jesus has the keys to hell,
not Satan,
Satan is dead whilst in hell,
can do nothing and knows nothing in death :-

Ecclesiastes 9:5 .... the dead know not any thing...

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

So what about the torment of sinners ? ...
well it is both their internal consciences forever telling them sin is wrong,
their own hearts in conflict ,
and the fact that lovingness makes people happy
when all love in the kingdom of God,
but sin brings misery to all,
as in the tribulation of the wrath of God after Jesus leaves ...
and as we see the masses are saved
in the kingdom of God [Rev 7:9-10]
although we know they are destroyed in the wrath of God
and the end of this earth [Matt 7:13]

so again religion disagrees with the scripture of saints...

God is the saviour of all men,
all will worship Jesus eventually because of love's power to persuade,
all yield to the power of love in the end,
but the end is beyond the end of this earth :-

1 Timothy 4:10 ... we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men....

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

so clearly the torment of sinners is not 'eternal'
so we have to look at the translation to see if there is a mistake ...
and indeed we see there is ,
the word 'aion' gives us the word aeon in English ...
an aeon is a long time,
but it is not 'eternity'
[indeed we know from scripture and Physics that time begins at creation ,
and indeed it ends when creation is redeemed to the third heaven ,
which Paul identifies as paradise,
the garden of Eden,
the place of the tree of life,
immortality of the spirit ...
there is no third earth then ,
but what of the second earth and heavens then :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Note that the new earth is righteous ,
not sinning like almost all in this earth ...
and that is because the few saints of this earth set up the kingdom come
to redeem the many there BY MEANS of love being the law ...
anyone continuing to sin there is cast into the lake of 'fire' ,
the final tribulation and trial of sin ...
so this is simply sinners trying to live by sin
when their easy prey has been taken away...
they try to follow Satan again,
but this time they are being preyed upon as much as they prey,
it no longer benefits them at expense of others,
they are caught in their own evil
and it is pretty terrible for them ,
the truth about love dawns ,
and as Jesus says, all come to accept him in the end....

God's plan to redeem all creation to paradise
of the spiritual existence
by means of everyone coming to accept Jesus' command to love one another
and so be happy
VINDICATES God in ALL people's eyes,
else He would not be worthy to be called the god of all men ...
He told us the truth about loving each other solving all our problems
and we mostly ignored Him,
only to find out he was right
and then gaining MERCY for our rebellion in sin...
God's mercy endures to the end BECAUSE God is love...
the churches pretend mercy ends in this world...

so one has to decide between religion and God ...

Not a hard choice one would think,
but we know most choose sin of religion [or without religion],
not God ,
for now ...
and so folks are gonna be more than miserable
when the consequences of sin bite them hard...
but most folks won't share, won't care about all others,
won't treat men as equal, won't ensue justice for all...
so it gets really bad, terrible in fact ,
and God cannot but let men see what men did to men by sin...
then tries again with love as the law
[dividing those that love from sinners, so sinners cannot benefit from preying on the loving]... and succeeds in convincing all ...

So we see why Satan promises world peace BY FORCE OF ARMS
and why it fails ,
since men can only be happy in the end in a loving world ,
not where the many are simply suffering to give the few
more than they could possibly need
[as is already true in this world]

Indeed I know several 'atheist' friends
who are far more loving than many 'Christians' I know
most then just don't recognise respect for love
as being respect for the God of love
which is rather strange to my mind...

[ the truth of scripture of God that religion is not the way to know
the truth about love in this world ]

Did you think sin is fun long-term ?
...not just addictive transient escapism
from the misery you feel inside
that folks don't love you (freely) ?

Did you not ever notice that it always
ends in misery
and creates even more desire to grasp at straws
to escape the emptiness of the life
which you made by grasping at straws
whatever was to hand
but ignoring your heart and conscience
here then the proof that you were told what you already know
from your own heart
and from natural conscience of mind too...
and how everyone gets back to being happy
loving each other in the end
but not until you see where your rebellion led you...
pretty terrible
but then you can hardly claim that you didn't choose
to ignore your own heart
and conscience of mind
which told you the truth from the start...

 

[Threadkiller]

Just wondering though if they are teaching bad things then to why are they peaceful earth wide? Catholics and protestants have been in wars for generations yet each church claims to preach correctly about Christ's love and follow in his footsteps.
Early Christians didn't fight people. I cannot imagine Christ blessing his followers to go fight in human wars like priests and preachers have done.

Right, Jehovah's Witnesses claim to follow the teachings of Christ all the while denying who He is. Personally, I think JW's have Jesus confused with Ghandi, because they talk about how "peaceful" He was (even though He told us that there would be wars and rumors of wars to the end of time), and they totally miss the part where He said He was God.

If it would have been up to Ghandi, Hitler would have ruled the world. As it was, God raised up an army to defeat that particular anti-Christ. That is a true historical fact.

And if you think JW's are "peaceful", just try disagreeing with one of them and you will find out just how "peaceful" they are - they will call you everything but a child of God.

And as I said in another thread, what kind of parent would deny life saving medical care (blood transfusions) to a child in the name of God.

They have some 'splainin' to do, and they never do it. All they can ever say is "at least we're not catholic".

 

[steve4.truth]

Right, Jehovah's Witnesses claim to follow the teachings of Christ all the while denying who He is.

Besides the fact that this is off-topic, can one teaching (assuming we are wrong about the trinity) completely define a religion and excuse hate? Do you know any religion that doesn't have at least one teaching that is either false or unbalanced? Is your religion perfect?

Personally, I think JW's have Jesus confused with Ghandi, because they talk about how "peaceful" He was (even though He told us that there would be wars and rumors of wars to the end of time), and they totally miss the part where He said He was God.

If it would have been up to Ghandi, Hitler would have ruled the world. As it was, God raised up an army to defeat that particular anti-Christ. That is a true historical fact.

I can't blame you for not knowing the facts: JW's in Germany were the first to expose Hitler in literature that was distributed around the world--including Germany. If you go to jw-media.org you can view the videos under "educational videos". And we do believe in warfare when it is directed by God--not for oil, land or politics. Soon Jesus will slaughter the wicked in a bloody confrontation referred to as Armageddon.

And if you think JW's are "peaceful", just try disagreeing with one of them and you will find out just how "peaceful" they are - they will call you everything but a child of God.

Well, I was a Baptist preacher as long as I have been a witness, and I assure you there are few witnesses that I have ever heard call someone names. On the other hand, I have been insulted, screamed at and threatened by many churchgoers in the last few months alone. That's fine--they have been told we are "dangerous" and feel that that is the correct response. Their church leaders teach them to be nasty to us. I used to. So I don't blame them so much. However, I feel that JW's are the most peaceful group on earth. We are "disagreed with" at most doors we knock on. Trust me, we are used to being disagreed with. Apparently you are judging us based on a few encounters you had at the doors. Given your comments on this forum, I'm guessing you didn't let them do much talking. So there is a chance that your view of us may not be complete. Try speaking calmly and listening honestly. You may find out that we are normal people like you.

And as I said in another thread, what kind of parent would deny life saving medical care (blood transfusions) to a child in the name of God.

What kind of parent would send their teenager to another country to kill and be killed in war? Why don't the parents go there instead?

They have some 'splainin' to do, and they never do it. All they can ever say is "at least we're not catholic".

I've never said that or heard any of my hundreds of witness friends say that. BTW, We go door to door to do "splainin"! Try to relax a little, buddy

 

[steve4.truth]

Stranger, could you keep your posts shorter and fewer please? Honestly, I don't read them because they're too long.

 

[stranger]

Stranger, could you keep your posts shorter and fewer please? Honestly, I don't read them because they're too long.

Loads of questions and I cannot shorten the answers given by scripture ... not that anyone else here seems to care what the scripture says... no-one replies to my points from scripture... if its too long, just read a bit of it at a time... really it makes no odds how long it is ... six posts are just as long as one which includes them all, and no harder to read...

 

[Threadkiller]

Besides the fact that this is off-topic, can one teaching (assuming we are wrong about the trinity) completely define a religion and excuse hate? Do you know any religion that doesn't have at least one teaching that is either false or unbalanced? Is your religion perfect?

Not so fast, disagreement is not "hate". Why do JW's never answer direct questions when asked instead of casting aspersions on the questioner?

I can't blame you for not knowing the facts: JW's in Germany were the first to expose Hitler in literature that was distributed around the world--including Germany. If you go to jw-media.org you can view the videos under "educational videos". And we do believe in warfare when it is directed by God--not for oil, land or politics. Soon Jesus will slaughter the wicked in a bloody confrontation referred to as Armageddon.

It finally took other men laying their lives on the line to defeat Hitler (and Jesus said that no one has greater love than this). And my Bible says no one knows the date and the time, but claim that you do. I don't suppose it bothers you that your organization has been wrong something like 75 times about it's predictions for the end since it's inception?

Well, I was a Baptist preacher as long as I have been a witness, and I assure you there are few witnesses that I have ever heard call someone names.

Of course not, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. You haven't been around the ones I have been around.

You may find out that we are normal people like you.

Normal people don't run around saying "the end is near" all the time and telling others they and their churches are about to be destroyed.

What kind of parent would send their teenager to another country to kill and be killed in war? Why don't the parents go there instead?

Teenagers? The last I heard, the military was all adult.

I've never said that or heard any of my hundreds of witness friends say that. BTW, We go door to door to do "splainin"! Try to relax a little, buddy

There's that "No true Scotsman" thing again.

They tell me about all the things they hate about Catholics, and like the Pharisee praying with the tax collector, they tell anybody who will listen how they are different. I have thought for some time that it is part of their DNA since they were formed at a time of anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant sentiment. So have I now become your enemy because I tell you the truth?

 

[visionary]

Loads of questions and I cannot shorten the answers given by scripture ... not that anyone else here seems to care what the scripture says... no-one replies to my points from scripture... if its too long, just read a bit of it at a time... really it makes no odds how long it is ... six posts are just as long as one which includes them all, and no harder to read...

Think of it this way... little bits make for easy bites and easy to get responses. Kinda' like one response at a time.. it makes it easier to chew and not just glaze over... You could get more responses that way.

 

[stranger]

Think of it this way... little bits make for easy bites and easy to get responses. Kinda' like one response at a time.. it makes it easier to chew and not just glaze over... You could get more responses that way.

if you want small bites then read a bit at a time and meditate on the scriptures in between

one cannot include all the justification from scripture for what it says in a short quip , it is impossible ... so if one summarises too much folks just ask you why you think that, so I tell them at the time that it is NOT me, but here is the scripture ...

one should not get bored or glazed over with scripture if one loves God , but meditate upon it...

as for anyone bothering to understand scripture as a whole by meditating on it, we know from scripture how many ... one in 80,000 approximately , so i don't expect anyone here to listen to the scripture , but to go on arguing from their own perspective , but just incase one might find someone motivated by scripture to say: 'Hey, I might go away and ask God about this and meditate to see if it is right', then I include the scripture ... strangely folks don't appreciate that task set by Jesus, but some still claim to follow him , it's just a madness brought on by listening to countless sinners because one can't find a saint and can't be bothered with reading and understanding all the scripture , doesn't last forever though.... Jesus says so...

 

[visionary]

one cannot include all the justification from scripture for what it says in a short quip , it is impossible ... so if one summarises too much folks just ask you why you think that, so I tell them at the time that it is NOT me, but here is the scripture ...

one should not get bored or glazed over with scripture if one loves God , but meditate upon it...

as for anyone bothering to understand scripture as a whole by meditating on it, we know from scripture how many ... one in 80,000 approximately , so i don't expect anyone here to listen to the scripture , but to go on arguing from their own perspective , but just incase one might find someone motivated by scripture to say: 'Hey, I might go away and ask God about this and meditate to see if it is right', then I include the scripture ... strangely folks don't appreciate that task set by Jesus, but some still claim to follow him , it's just a madness brought on by listening to countless sinners because one can't find a saint and can't be bothered with reading and understanding all the scripture , doesn't last forever though.... Jesus says so...

I know.. but even our Lord cut to the chase.. He could have done a whole discertation with Nicodemus but instead said.. "you must be born again" allowing Nicodemus to digest that thought.. before explaining further.

 

[stranger]

I simply write what I am given to understand , I don't expect many if any to understand it , saints do not need to and most sinners believe sinners ... there really isn't much call for understanding scripture as a whole , plenty of market for the spin-doctored versions of divided religion.

since some 30 years ago, some lines of scripture began jumping out at me because they disprove this or that dctrine of sinners... I'm sorry if you are not interested in reading it, that is up to you , but rankly it would not make any better sense in smaller packages , one has to justify what one says or be accused of putting personal interpretation on it ... I asked God to explain some things to me and I cannot not use His scripture to illustrate what He gave me

Acts 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

as for cutting to the chase , there is no simple description of God's plan ... it is a power plan, so proceeds in stages [unlike what modern religion claims] God gives all the world except a few to satan to get him cocky enough to claim to be the god of men so God can justly have him killed for blasphemy [as he is a Jew] then with Satan out of the way prepares the kingdom for the many resurrected at the second resurrection saving the many , but just as importantly preventng satan from preying upon them ... the resurrected Satan and his cronies are then left alone and with no-one else to prey upon prey on each other making life intolerable for each other [and God denies them death after their second death for sin] ...so they get the message and sue for God's mercy ... and all live happily ever after , just like in Hollywood movies... except there is no ever, all are translated to spirit once their love has been perfected in trial... the spirit has no time, no decay , no death, no change ... but by forgetting as-it-were, it can appear to create time, space, and consciousness...

 

[steve4.truth]

And my Bible says no one knows the date and the time, but claim that you do. I don't suppose it bothers you that your organization has been wrong something like 75 times about it's predictions for the end since it's inception?

JW's have never made predictions and have never claimed to be prophets. Like the apostles, they have had wrong expectations.
Lk. 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they supposed that the kingdom of God was immediately to appear.
Acts 1:6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
We are not the only ones who are eager:
In the 16th century, Martin Luther, progenitor of the Lutheran Church, predicted that the end was imminent. According to one authority, he stated: “For my part, I am sure that the day of judgment is just around the corner.”
Concerning one of the first Baptist groups, it is reported: “The Anabaptists of the early Sixteenth Century believed that the Millennium would occur in 1533.”
“Edwin Sandys (1519-1588), Archbishop of York and Primate of England . . . says, . . . ‘Let us be assured that this coming of the Lord is near.’”
William Miller, generally credited with founding the Adventist Church, is quoted as saying: “I am fully convinced that sometime between March 21, 1843, and March 21, 1844, according to the Jewish mode of computation of time, Christ will come.”

I am glad to be with a group of people who "keep on the watch" and stay awake and ready as Jesus told us to. It hasn't come when we hoped, but it will some day.

Of course not, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. You haven't been around the ones I have been around.

My point was that if someone has gotten nasty with you, they were wrong. We are reminded at least 50 times each year of 1 pet. 3:15 "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect," We are taught to respect people. Of course, someone who just got baptized may forget this when provoked, but it is an exception, not a rule.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I simply write what I am given to understand , I don't expect many if any to understand it , saints do not need to and most sinners believe sinners ... there really isn't much call for understanding scripture as a whole , plenty of market for the spin-doctored versions of divided religion.

since some 30 years ago, some lines of scripture began jumping out at me because they disprove this or that dctrine of sinners... I'm sorry if you are not interested in reading it, that is up to you , but rankly it would not make any better sense in smaller packages , one has to justify what one says or be accused of putting personal interpretation on it ... I asked God to explain some things to me and I cannot not use His scripture to illustrate what He gave me

Acts 4:20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.

as for cutting to the chase , there is no simple description of God's plan ... it is a power plan, so proceeds in stages [unlike what modern religion claims] God gives all the world except a few to satan to get him cocky enough to claim to be the god of men so God can justly have him killed for blasphemy [as he is a Jew] then with Satan out of the way prepares the kingdom for the many resurrected at the second resurrection saving the many , but just as importantly preventng satan from preying upon them ... the resurrected Satan and his cronies are then left alone and with no-one else to prey upon prey on each other making life intolerable for each other [and God denies them death after their second death for sin] ...so they get the message and sue for God's mercy ... and all live happily ever after , just like in Hollywood movies... except there is no ever, all are translated to spirit once their love has been perfected in trial... the spirit has no time, no decay , no death, no change ... but by forgetting as-it-were, it can appear to create time, space, and consciousness...

If this is the way you are going to respond to advice then you will only be speaking to yourself here. When I first came here my posts were very long too. I realized that no one was reading them so what did I do? I shortened them. Sometimes If it was getting too long I would split it up into 2 separate posts. After 3 years here I have learnt how to condense what I want to say while hitting all the main points and scriptures I need to make the case. Heed the advice instead of calling people here sinners and claiming that we are all wrong. I personally don't read any of your posts not just because of the length but the lack of common and scriptural sense therein, however if you want others to read it shorten your posts as I have learnt to do in the past.

 

[stranger]

If this is the way you are going to respond to advice then you will only be speaking to yourself here. When I first came here my posts were very long too. I realized that no one was reading them so what did I do? I shortened them. Sometimes If it was getting too long I would split it up into 2 separate posts. After 3 years here I have learnt how to condense what I want to say while hitting all the main points and scriptures I need to make the case. Heed the advice instead of calling people here sinners and claiming that we are all wrong. I personally don't read any of your posts not just because of the length but the lack of common and scriptural sense therein, however if you want others to read it shorten your posts as I have learnt to do in the past.

It is up to you what you read, but the scripture is much longer than my posts quoting it ... I guess you refuse that too? ... or maybe you read it bit by bit... but if so ,then why do you not do the same with my posts ?

That is my advice to you , which i submit is as good as your advice to me...

as for folks reading posts, that is up to them... I am not moved to change what I am given , just for sake of popularity ... I know very few have ears to hear [Matt 7:14]

As for being sinners, it is pretty vain to think one is not a sinner ... it is God's call ,not mine or yours... and it is God's words I quote, not mine ... it is God's word tells folks they are still sinners, not mine... but then everyone knows if they are sinners, themselves by their own consciences and their own hearts... none needs to be told...

and saints have no need to claim to be saints for they are given the truth by God Himself [John 16:13] and would only be persecuted by sinners if they claimed any such thing... that is the way of this world and it is written so ...

reducing God's word to simple quips is not God's way ...


Proverbs 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

 

[stranger]

JW's have never made predictions

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

How far could JWs [or any other] get without the spirit of truth then ?

Joel 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.