Why do We Call JW's a "Cult?"

[Threadkiller]

Actually if we all would welcome JW with open arms as felllllow beathren... they would fall all over themselves, not knowing how to react.. It is their belief that their righteousness come in part by the rejection they receive from the main body of Christiandom... it is part of the martyr system complex they have... You are suppose to think of them as a "cult" according to their ideology.. and if you don't .. they just can not accept that.

Uh, they disowned US.

 

[Threadkiller]

God will win them over, chastising and purifying them through the second death and they will be along side us worshiping God, to the glory of God the father.

There is no purpose in it for God to make a human being knowing he will somehow "choose death' then torture him forever especially when God could have just aborted hitler as a fetus. The ultimate goal of god being all in all has to include the conversion and purification of the hitlers of the world. God will destroy "them" and redeem them the same way he will for us. Tell me, are your sins cleaner than hitlers? are your "good deeds" not as filthy as mine?

So acts of injustice are God's fault, not Hitler's fault? He just stuck us with a mass murderer so He could "purify" him?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

stranger, why is it that regardless of what topic it is you always bring up the same nonsense. Are you so desperate to spread your unbiblical theory that you are going to bombard every thread you can and lead it into some discussion about your theory of the third resurrection. This thread has nothing to do with this but this is the heated discussion you have started up. Please respect the topic of the thread and don't bring your nonsense especially if it is off topic.

 

[stranger]

I have explained the biblical basis for what I said, so it is scripture that you are calling 'nonsense' rather unlovingly and disrespectfully of God's words, and not in the spirit of discussion... but I have only replied to points made by others here ... discussions often need to cover a wide field to reach the truth... sorry your mind can't cope and you resort to insults without any basis for what you claim...

 

[stranger]

So acts of injustice are God's fault, not Hitler's fault? He just stuck us with a mass murderer so He could "purify" him?

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

 

[stranger]

Then what do you call THIS:I'd call it your 'appraisal' of The Holy Scriptures; and I find it wanting. I'd say if you don't believe The Bible, then you're liable to swallow anything.An age being several thousand years? I don't believe that your re-definition is adequate.I've never seen any.Forcing every creature to confess to Jesus' stature isn't redemption. Those who are redeemed have eternal life. Those whose names weren't found in The Lamb's Book of Life were cast into the Lake of Fire.Neither can God be held responsible for what men do with His Spirit, which is poured out upon them. Ask Ananias and Sapphira what they did when they were given this great gift.I have no idea why you think that God suffering due to His emotions is changing. He suffers because souls are lost, not because of some change you think is taking place. If you believe that I've lied about you, I'd like to know where. Please show me.The Spirit of The Lord didn't show you that everyone will be saved. He never violates Scripture.I don't, I just believe that for ever and ever means forever. You seem to think it means something arbitrary.

You just make to many asumptions, the word of God states :-
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

You have not even proved the history of the translation of scripture you use ...

So read the history... we only have COPIES , no originals, and ALL the supposed copies differ [excepting some small fragments with but a few words on them]

So we KNOW the scriptures have been altered, we cannot know what the original word of God is because all supposed copies are different...

so it is untrue to say we have the word of God, we have perhaps part of it with some limited confidence... no originals at all...

and a for translation, you do not understand that one CANNOT translate any language exactly to another, the words in one do not all correspond well to any word in another tongue

Hebrew is especially impossible to translate as it has so few word roots and so they are used with countless idiomatic meanings , many of which are simpy unknown today, ancient Hebrew is no longer an active language, much meaning is simply gone...

Then there are the MANY translations , all different ,all fail to reneder the word of God in one way or another , but also all show the fashion of religion of the translator, the bias of his time... one can study the history and see why the scriptural menaing was altered to fit dogma of traditions of sinners... men divided in what they believed, not unified in one belief by the holy spirit of God...

So, you see perhaps, you have not proved all things and yet you cling to your asumptions and will not let even the scripture as we have it sway you... that is rather inconsistent and lacking humility to be reproved by the scripture even as we have it ... I have taken great time to explain your mistakes , made by following sinners, not reading for yourself with meditation and prayer to the source, God ...inners are blind, blind leading the blind.... why follow them in place of the scripture, why follow mutilated scripture in favour of the holy spirit ?

te best advie then is to wait on the promised bptim of all flesh [Joel 2:28] from God, but if you want to delve into scripture then yo will be misled if you follow traditions of men, sinners, they are divided and thus do not get their words from God, but thus from Satan, as all sinners are of Satan :-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

it might seem har, but as is written FEW find the narrow strait way in this life [Matt 7:14] , so we know mass religion is false ... the many will be destroyed [Matt 7:13] , number in this case are no insurance but rather a guarantee of falseness...

so we have a problem discussing matters because you don't prove all things as the scripture says saints must ... and you cling to things which scripture taken as a whole shows are not true , refuse to let the sripture change your views...

 

[Threadkiller]

Romans 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

These verses have nothing to do with my questions, and in the case of the John 9 verses, Jesus was talking about a specific incident, not about Hitler.

 

[Bananna]

It seems like we're being just highly dismissive.... Like labeling a sect a "cult" causes you not to have to defend your own doctrine against theirs.... Kinda like calling a person who has a different belief from you "crazy."

If we are confident in our doctrine shouldn't we be able to engage them?

How are they a cult?

yep,
Embarrassed to confess the labels were once something I used in ignorance to make myself feel 'right'.

I try not to use it now... but in my thinking it applies to forcing belief, forcing labor... rather than different understandings of scripture.

 

[Aimiel]

You just make to many asumptions,

Such as what, specifically? ... that what The Word of God says is what The Word of God means? You're right, I do assume that. You presume to put your own spin on it, so that you can ignore EVERYTHING in Scripture which contradicts your pet theology.

You have not even proved the history of the translation of scripture you use

I don't have to, since there's NO PROOF that it has been mis-translated.

So read the history... we only have COPIES , no originals, and ALL the supposed copies differ [excepting some small fragments with but a few words on them]

I'm sorry that you've been misinformed; but I haven't. The Authorized King James Version is considered VERY reliable, and if you have evidence proving otherwise, I'd like to see it.

So we KNOW the scriptures have been altered, we cannot know what the original word of God is because all supposed copies are different...

No, they aren't. The most recent archaeological find of Scripture, called the Dead Sea Scrolls, only verified that every single word, yes, even every single character that we had was proven to be accurate. If you have any contradictory evidence, I'm sure that un-believing scientists the world over would LOVE to see it. Since you don't, all you can do is hurl accusations against God's Holy Word. You're not making friends with God by so doing. You're proving that you're on the side of the accuser.

so it is untrue to say we have the word of God, we have perhaps part of it with some limited confidence... no originals at all...

If you have 'limited' confidence in God's Holy Bible, then why believe It at all?

why follow mutilated scripture in favour of the holy spirit ?

For two reasons which are NOT apparent to you: 1) The Holy Scriptures are NOT mutilated at ALL, and; 2) The Holy Spirit is Whom I favor, since He has authority above and beyond The Word of God which He inspired, both in the holy men who authored It and the holy men who translated It. If you don't believe Him, then I daresay you aren't in communication with The Same Holy Spirit Whom I am. What spirit have you been communing with?

te best advie then is to wait on the promised bptim of all flesh [Joel 2:28] from God, but if you want to delve into scripture then yo will be misled if you follow traditions of men, sinners, they are divided and thus do not get their words from God, but thus from Satan, as all sinners are of Satan

Your mis-characterization of men whom God calls, "Holy," only proves whom you're getting your information from.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. -- 2 Peter 1:21

so we have a problem discussing matters because you don't prove all things as the scripture says saints must ... and you cling to things which scripture taken as a whole shows are not true , refuse to let the sripture change your views...

I refuse to let your unbelief and lack of understanding keep me from God's Presence. You need to repent. You're LOST.

 

[Aimiel]

I have explained the biblical basis for what I said, so it is scripture that you are calling 'nonsense' rather unlovingly and disrespectfully of God's words, and not in the spirit of discussion... but I have only replied to points made by others here ... discussions often need to cover a wide field to reach the truth... sorry your mind can't cope and you resort to insults without any basis for what you claim...

WOW!!! You can quote Scripture, as long as it supports your beliefs, but if someone else does so, you attack The Holy Scriptures and call them fragmented and limited, without any confidence in them at all. You need to make up your mind.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Seems like The Word of God is calling to you... since you seem to need wisdom.

 

[visionary]

Uh, they disowned US.

God admonished us to love one another... And the Lord isn't dum.. so therefore it works... break down the barriers... there is power in the truth...

 

[Threadkiller]

God admonished us to love one another... And the Lord isn't dum.. so therefore it works... break down the barriers... there is power in the truth...

I have served my time in JW deprogramming hell. Truth is a waste of time to people who love the darkness, and that is a true Biblical principle.

The only thing you can really do is pray for them, talking is a waste of time.

 

[visionary]

I have served my time in JW deprogramming hell. Truth is a waste of time to people who love the darkness, and that is a true Biblical principle.

The only thing you can really do is pray for them, talking is a waste of time.

Then this is not your ministry..

 

[Threadkiller]

Then this is not your ministry..

Apparently not.

I am shaking the dust off my shoes on this one. (Luke 9:5)

 

[stranger]

I have served my time in JW deprogramming hell. Truth is a waste of time to people who love the darkness, and that is a true Biblical principle.

The only thing you can really do is pray for them, talking is a waste of time.

Since few find the strait narrow way of perfected love [ceasing from sin] in this life , and those that do are all descended from Jacob's sons [excluding Dan] (Rev 8:3-8) then indeed it is a waste of time talking to anyone if one has the intention of taking over God's role and teaching them to love and so save themselves now [maybe even not die as we seem so close to the end now]...

If one instaed listens to Jesus' instruction and seeks only to awaken the remnant children of the lost House of israel amongst the gentiles so God can baptise them and so teach all truth [John 16:13] and knowledge of the future, then it is worth talking to many whom one comes to realise are not yet gonna see ... one ca go so far before the walls are reached in men's minds, walls that keep men 'sane' in a world that rationally is insane [we really have broken the intricate web of life that feeds us, we really are gonna starve by the billion, all in the name of 'progress' and 'growth' which our earthcnnot sustain and now is increasing seen as evil... but too late to save many [Matt 7:13] , just the few [Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8]...
Equally the bible warns that near the end one has to stop trying to find the house of Israel's children , not just because all 144,000 have been found, but because one has to finish the work of attending to one' own salvation, if indeed one has learned to love everybody or not ... Jesus's call, not ours ...

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

It is an observable fat that almost all men cannot depart from iniquity, and indeed mas religion pretends to them that Jesus will take them in this life, one can understand that they seek it out to hear what they want to hear, but the truth, for the few, is written clearly [above and in many places in scripture]If one cannot stop sinning then perhaps one can at least comfort the many left gnashing their teeth that cripture explains that the many are notsaved now, that they die and are destroyed [Matt 7:13] but are saved later [Rev 7:9-10] once the few have set up the kingdom to handle billions of resurrected sinners...

 

[stranger]

God admonished us to love one another... And the Lord isn't dum.. so therefore it works... break down the barriers... there is power in the truth...

that i rather pretty and concise, but te truth is that most folks cannot stop sinning and so love one another in this life... an so if one reads more carefully , it is the saints who are commanded to love on another [and to work to find the next generation of saints from the lost House of Israel, scattered worldwide by God and living as idol-worshipping gentiles amongst the gentiles, largely indistinguishable from gentiles except that they can HEAR what scripture says, just need to be pointed at it and have religious lies pointed out to them... God does the TEACHING in spirit baptism of ALL who truly come to love all , departing from sin because it is unloving to sin against anyone...

the scripture points out that one need only witness three times to know whether someone is of the House of Israel , and no-one else will be a saint in this life bar some lesser number of Jews who mostly come home to the truth at the 'eleventh hour' , muh to the annoyane of some who worked all their lives at finding the lost House of Israel [largely denied to even exist by Jews] ... only a fool though would call God unfair for that , the point is that His plan for redeming all creation works His way ...and kindly He wrote it down for any to read... most give up long before they understand it , Jews however CAN pick it up very fast when it is explained to them by their cousins of the lost House of Israel led by the holy spirit, they do actually most know te 'OT' very well indeed ...it is how the few of them become saints, by that 'lever' of what they know ...

Deuteronomy 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.

note that most Jews will be moved to anger by one's approaches , understandably , sine they truly deeply believe they know everything about God and no-one else does , but a few are moved to jealousy of the knowledge about their Messiah, the big hole in every Jew's life now...

 

[steve4.truth]

To avoid careless labeling which could be harmful to a group and its adherents, it is important to know just exactly what a cult is, and how it is defined.

I am one of Jehovah's witnesses. First, I must say that there are many who are fair-minded and kind to those of other beliefs--as reflected by many comments on this thread. In my door to door ministry, I talk to a lot of people each week and I have always found it ironic that the ones who don't want to talk about God and tend to get nasty are usually the "Christians". however, most people are generally kind or genuinely too busy. Also, I think this definition of a cult is quite good.

A cult, by modern standards, is any group that incorporates mind control to deceive, influence and govern its followers. Although most people think of cults as being religious, they can also be found in political, athletic, philosophical, racial or psychotherapeutic arenas.

The mind control, or brainwashing, exerted by cults often take the form of at least several of the following elements:

A totalitarian control over the lifestyle and time of its members - Many cults tend to dictate exactly what its followers should read, eat, how and with whom they should spend their time, and even what they should do in off hours. This totalitarian control is necessary for the leaders to indoctrinate the followers in everything they do, and is also an attempt to separate them from anything not associated with the cult. This is why cults often live in groups.

Agreed. JW's definitely don't fit this criteria. -- Unless you consider teaching as mind control, in which case every religion and university would be guilty. Among JW's Individuality is seen as variety. I'm a surfer. Some of my witness friends hate surfing, but are computer geeks Some ride a Harley Davidson, others enjoy operas and classical music. Some are health "nuts" into alternative medicine, others are doctors and nurses.

A charismatic, self-appointed leader with complete authority (Read: C.T. Russell, Judge Rutherford, Edgar Cayce, Maryanne Williamson, or Ellen G. White) - Cult members are taught not to question the practices, or ideas of the leader. Many cult leaders truly are charismatic people, and are able to influence people to believe them.

Have you ever noticed that none of our literature names the author? Do you know of any religion that is successfully run entirely by a committee? Our governing body even use a revolving chairman (the chairman switches every year), and very few witnesses could tell you their names (I only know a few). CT Russell is referred to maybe once a year and is viewed by us as just another brother.

It is common that a cult member is not told everything up front when joining the group, but that they are taught increasingly controlling ideas and teachings as they go.

Before baptism, a new disciple must study for usually at least a year (to answer their personal questions) and go through all the basic teachings with 2 elders right before baptism to make sure that they know everything up front.

A focus on withholding truth from non-members - Many cults teach their followers to be completely open and truthful within the group, while at the same time they are encouraged to be secretive and evasive when questioned by people outside of the group. This is another form of mind control-instilling guilt in the members if they hold anything back within the group. The members are taught that outsiders wouldn't understand or that they would only make fun of the ideas and practices and requirements for living within the group. Only specially-commissioned members are appointed to recruit members from outside. New members are usually encouraged to keep silent or even lie, especially to their families and close friends.

Every witness goes witnessing before baptism and continues till physically unable. We are exposed to all types of thinking: secular humanism, atheism, universalism, etc.. We are encouraged to listen carefully and respectfully acknowledge each person's beliefs. Our beliefs are so NOT secretive that we will share them with anyone who will listen! All our meetings are open to the public (with no collections taken because no one in our entire organization is paid).

I grew up as a Baptist, and I can assure you that there are many baptist churches that fit the criteria for a cult much better than JW's!!!
As Christians, we try to follow Jesus Christ's example: to treat those of other beliefs with respect. We appreciate it when others treat us with respect also.

 

[Bananna]

Agreed. JW's definitely don't fit this criteria. -- Unless you consider teaching as mind control, in which case every religion and university would be guilty. Among JW's Individuality is seen as variety. I'm a surfer. Some of my witness friends hate surfing, but are computer geeks

Some ride a Harley Davidson, others enjoy operas and classical music. Some are health "nuts" into alternative medicine, others are doctors and nurses.

steve4truth,
Just like I wouldn't say that is a JW discription, I also know that in our area... a few bad elders give a lot of JW a bad wrap. They literally took a new convert and excumunicated her the next week because she didn't acquiece to their "teaching".

One might call my family a cult because we try to control our kids...

I think we have to take a critical look at our faults and the faults of our sister congregations and really ask, are we trying to play God in the bretheren's lives.

Bananna
I

 

[stranger]

steve4truth,
Just like I wouldn't say that is a JW discription, I also know that in our area... a few bad elders give a lot of JW a bad wrap. They literally took a new convert and excumunicated her the next week because she didn't acquiece to their "teaching".

One might call my family a cult because we try to control our kids...

I think we have to take a critical look at our faults and the faults of our sister congregations and really ask, are we trying to play God in the bretheren's lives.

Bananna
I

This is a very important point if one is going to understand how it came about that religion is deeply divided and the truth of God is not...

We know from simple logic that most of religion MUST be wrong because folks hold beliefs right down to individual level which they defend often like tigers... but the scripture tells us how many are false as could our own logic if we just accepted that God's truth is buut ONE truth and NO cult has yet been able to recover it from holy writings because Satan always twists one or other group of words in their minds, or they simply get tempted to ignore this or that scriptural witness...

Now the scripture says that God will do teh teachig himself and no-one 'under grace' of the new covenant will teach any other who is under grace for they all will know from God... that alone shows most cults are not of God, but thus still sinners, of Satan:-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

Jesus' congregation is of true saints , baptised into one truth of God by God, not taught by sinners as in all cults of mass religion, all denominations, all divisions...

all cults, divisions, denomination have their hierarchies, and their leader, but Jesus said he alone is the leader of his congregation of saints ... it is eay enough to see that the blind lead the blind in religious tradition, logically obvious and backed by scripture of saints and prophets alike as ONE ... but once told stories by those one thinks sincere ,folks find it impossible to even see the scriptures straight, bits of scripture are twisted to fit one's beliefs acquired from sinners and one just doesn't see the rest which shows one is mistaken...

Matthew tells us FEW find the way now , so how can MANY do so ... impossible, but many believe it is possible, BELIEVE it is possible because sinners tell them it is FAITH to do so , but faith in sinners is faith in Satan isn't it, not faith in God and his for now FEW saints following Jesus

just one scripture , backed by Jesus statement about the 144, 000 and confirmed by Enoch [Jude 1:14] shows that mass churches MUST be following Satan at this time, but few bother to see

Jesus states it explicitly - Rev 13:3-4 , but folks read it and ignore it, pretend they are following Jesus as sinners , not saints , despite what Jesus says that he never knew anyone who will still be a sinner by time of his return :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

folks argue about their dogmas and doctrines between each other when BOTH are WRONG according to Jesus and the scripture ... it is really nonsense, but folks say they believe Jesus and the saints and prophets but have no idea what is said in scripture if one takes it as a whole, leaves nothing out [bar mistranslations and editing... which we know have occurred , mainstay in fact of much of Satan's work , but Satan cannot change the holy spirit, nor fake receiviung it although he tries]

 

[Bananna]

Well I can agree the way of truth is a narrow road that few find,
but I'd have to debate you on the 144000 theory shared with me, because: Revelation 14:3,4.
The 144,000 were male virgins and first fruits.

Still, knowing the truth does not garantee salvation. The Demons believe and shudder.

Being set appart, may mean one is set appart for destruction in some passages of scripture.

Still, how do these theories make a cult or break it? There is no law against thinking. Yeshua will separate sheep from goats based on the Mitzvot (good works) we do and do not do. (Matthew 25) Really that is the only way we can judge a person/group. What do they do for their fellow human beings. It is how we truly reveal the Torah written on our hearts IMO
bananna