Why do the OT and NT contradict so much?

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
I'm trying to keep debate at a minimum here.

Part of Psalm 139:
36 You broaden the path beneath me,
so that my ankles do not turn. 37 I pursued my enemies and overtook them;
I did not turn back till they were destroyed.
38 I crushed them so that they could not rise;
they fell beneath my feet.
39 You armed me with strength for battle;
you made my adversaries bow at my feet.
40 You made my enemies turn their backs in flight,
and I destroyed my foes.
41 They cried for help, but there was no one to save them—
to the LORD, but he did not answer.
42 I beat them as fine as dust borne on the wind;
I poured them out like mud in the streets.

The Psalms are kind of like prayers, and this one is thanking God for allowing him to destroy his enemies and to not have mercy on them. Sounds very different from a prayer in favor of an enemy.

Hi. The greatest enemy in the OT was Death and Hades itself.
That is why JESUS was sent, to abolish the "DEATH". This fulfills Daniel 12 btw.

John 11:48 "If ever we should be letting Him thus, All will be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away/arousin <142> (5692) of Us [Law/Circumcision], and the Place/topon <5117> and the Nation."

Reve 12:7 And became battle in the Heaven, the Miyka'el and the messengers of him, battle with the Dragon, and the Dragon battles and the messengers of him 8 and not he is strong, neither [was] Place/topoV <5117> found of Them [Law/Circumcision] still in the heaven.

Reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the land and the Heaven fled away. And there was found no Place/topoV <5117> for Them.

Fireinfolding · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
Revelation is one of the books of the Bible that I am extremely skeptical about because it is so different from the rest of the NT.

The rest of the NT contains the Gospel and the various letters written by Paul and others, but this is a book based around someone who claims to have had a revelation. Tons of people have revelations today, and I have to ask what makes this one more believable, besides the fact that it happened around the time the Bible was being assembled.

Weigh things out very carefully, not simply looking for affirmative answers as much as to Him quickening a thing to you.

The Scriptures are given for "reproof"

Prov 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

Believe it

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Mark 4:24 Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Believe that too

R3quiem · Sep 15, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi. The greatest enemy in the OT was Death and Hades itself.
That is why JESUS was sent, to abolish the "DEATH". This fulfills Daniel 12 btw.

John 11:48 "If ever we should be letting Him thus, All will be believing into Him, and shall be coming the Romans and they shall be taking away/arousin <142> (5692) of Us [Law/Circumcision], and the Place/topon <5117> and the Nation."

Reve 12:7 And became battle in the Heaven, the Miyka'el and the messengers of him, battle with the Dragon, and the Dragon battles and the messengers of him 8 and not he is strong, neither [was] Place/topoV <5117> found of Them [Law/Circumcision] still in the heaven.

Reve 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the land and the Heaven fled away. And there was found no Place/topoV <5117> for Them.

Fair enough, but I'm not sure how that ties in to the post of mine you quoted.

In the NT, Jesus tells us to love for and pray for our enemies.

But in the OT we see a very different picture. God commands Israel to destroy it's enemies, and to do it without mercy. It's hard to imagine soldiers loving their enemies as they kill the women and children. Then that Psalm I posted is a thankful prayer to God, for allowing him to defeat and destroy his enemies.

Fireinfolding · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
Fair enough, but I'm not sure how that ties in to the post of mine you quoted.

In the NT, Jesus tells us to love for and pray for our enemies.

But in the OT we see a very different picture. God commands Israel to destroy it's enemies, and to do it without mercy. It's hard to imagine soldiers loving their enemies as they kill the women and children. Then that Psalm I posted is a thankful prayer to God, for allowing him to defeat and destroy his enemies.

Get familiar with how He uses words, a child also is shown as dying a hundred years old in Isaiah 65:20 and a man travailing with child as well. Its less "affirmative" in answers then revelatory (from Himself to us) then anything.

Jerm 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Theres an example

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
Fair enough, but I'm not sure how that ties in to the post of mine you quoted.

In the NT, Jesus tells us to love for and pray for our enemies.

But in the OT we see a very different picture. God commands Israel to destroy it's enemies, and to do it without mercy. It's hard to imagine soldiers loving their enemies as they kill the women and children. Then that Psalm I posted is a thankful prayer to God, for allowing him to defeat and destroy his enemies.

Hi.

Well it could always be worst. The Jews/Judeans read those Scriptures also, but they are still waiting on a future Messiah that will never come except thru the Word and Spirit of the Christ sent by YHWH His Father.

Isaiah 61:2 To call year of good pleasure of YHWH,.................

Luke 4:21: He begins to say yet toward Them "that today has-been-ful-filled the Scripture, this, in the ears of Ye".

John 19:28 After this the Jesus having perceived that already All has-finished/tetelestai <5055> (5769), that may be being finished/teleiwqh <5048> (5686) the Scripture, He is saying "I am thirsting/diyw <1372> (5719) ".

NorrinRadd · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
I try hard to be a Christian, because I like Christ and his teachings, but I think the Old Testament is terrible. The OT is so full of killing and suffering at God's hands, that it is hard to understand how he can be considered loving when he solves so many problems through warfare. Christ on the other hand, preached love and kindness, but it's hard for me to believe any of it because he based all of his teachings on the OT.

I'm sorry you're having trouble with this. I don't want to drive you farther away, but it will serve no good purpose to sugar-coat the things you find troublesome.

I'm going to post a few of the verses in the OT that are very cruel, and I would like for anyone to tell me what they think of them, and explain how they line up with the teachings of Christ. I ask this not to debate, but to understand.

Deuteronomy 13
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

I don't have a specific explanation for that, but I'll note some family-unfriendly words of Christ Himself:

(Mat 12:46) While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.

(Mat 12:47) Someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."

(Mat 12:48) But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"

(Mat 12:49) And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!

(Mat 12:50) "For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

(Mat 10:34) "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

(Mat 10:35) "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;

(Mat 10:36) and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.

(Mat 10:37) "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

Deuteronomy 20
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy themthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesas the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

Joshua 10
...
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Hosea 13
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

Yes, those are certainly harsh.

We can surmise Jesus would not in this present age condone deadly force to advance His Kingdom, because He said His Kingdom is not of this world. OT Israel was under the Old Covenant, and living in different circumstances.

However, you noted an important point: Jesus based His teachings on the Old Testament. And in fact, He went so far as to identify Himself as the "I AM" Who issued the laws and commands in the OT. He never said, "Yeah, sorry guys. Dad and I were really cranky and did some awful things back then. We've learned a lot since those days." He clarified some things, changed some interpretations and applications, but never repudiated it. Rather, He consistently affirmed it.

Jesus said,

(Mat 11:28) Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

(Mat 11:29) Take my yoke on you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

(Mat 11:30) For my yoke is easy to bear, and my load is not hard to carry."

But He also beat people with a whip for dishonoring the Temple; affirmed John the Baptist, who said (paraphrasing) that everyone would either be immersed in the fire of the Spirit or the fire of destruction; and said that those who remain opposed to Him will end up on the eternal ever-burning worm-infested garbage heap.

Apollo Celestio · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
Fair enough, but I'm not sure how that ties in to the post of mine you quoted.

In the NT, Jesus tells us to love for and pray for our enemies.

But in the OT we see a very different picture. God commands Israel to destroy it's enemies, and to do it without mercy. It's hard to imagine soldiers loving their enemies as they kill the women and children. Then that Psalm I posted is a thankful prayer to God, for allowing him to defeat and destroy his enemies.

Maybe this was allowed because in the NC, we are forgiven if we come to Jesus. And so, we can be more "Christ-like" or "God-like" (Not putting us above each other, but we are told to be like this, right?) by forgiving others as he has forgiven us. This wasn't around before, at least not for the non-jewish..

WarriorAngel · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
I try hard to be a Christian, because I like Christ and his teachings, but I think the Old Testament is terrible. The OT is so full of killing and suffering at God's hands, that it is hard to understand how he can be considered loving when he solves so many problems through warfare. Christ on the other hand, preached love and kindness, but it's hard for me to believe any of it because he based all of his teachings on the OT. I'm going to post a few of the verses in the OT that are very cruel, and I would like for anyone to tell me what they think of them, and explain how they line up with the teachings of Christ. I ask this not to debate, but to understand.

Deuteronomy 13
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. 9 You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

Deuteronomy 20
16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy themthe Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusitesas the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

Joshua 10
29 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Makkedah to Libnah and attacked it. 30 The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel's hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho. 31 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Libnah to Lachish; he took up positions against it and attacked it. 32 The LORD handed Lachish over to Israel, and Joshua took it on the second day. The city and everyone in it he put to the sword, just as he had done to Libnah. 33 Meanwhile, Horam king of Gezer had come up to help Lachish, but Joshua defeated him and his armyuntil no survivors were left.
34 Then Joshua and all Israel with him moved on from Lachish to Eglon; they took up positions against it and attacked it. 35 They captured it that same day and put it to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it, just as they had done to Lachish.
36 Then Joshua and all Israel with him went up from Eglon to Hebron and attacked it. 37 They took the city and put it to the sword, together with its king, its villages and everyone in it. They left no survivors. Just as at Eglon, they totally destroyed it and everyone in it.
38 Then Joshua and all Israel with him turned around and attacked Debir. 39 They took the city, its king and its villages, and put them to the sword. Everyone in it they totally destroyed. They left no survivors. They did to Debir and its king as they had done to Libnah and its king and to Hebron.
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, just as the LORD, the God of Israel, had commanded.

Hosea 13
16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

One thing that is imperative to remember...
The Bible is historical, and accounts are actually what happened.

The fact that prophecy fills the texts is the important thing to read.

Note: When Christ came this sort of human trait was not looked upon as favorable...

ANyway, another thing you have to realise is that today's standards of living are quite different.
In the PC world... we cannot imagine how life really was in ancient times.

It was barbaric, and it would not be until Christ came that we understand what happened in the OT was part free will.

Markea · Sep 15, 2007

AMEN Warrior,

The scriptures declare absolute truth with respect to the events which are described.. and as severe as they are.. they are also pictures and types (although literal as well) of the judgment which is coming upon this world.

This world is condemned, right now.. it crucified God's Son and would have nothing to do with Him reigning over us.. and although this was foretold and foreknown in the scriptures, it was still the absolute wicked heart of man in his fallen state which brutally murdered the Son of God.

This is why God is calling people OUT of this present evil world.. it's not going to be pretty.. it's going to get worse and more evil than you can possibly imagine.. and then the Lord will put an end to it with the brightness of His coming.

The armies of Israel were a picture of the armies of heaven which are going to be coming in judgment against the ungodliness of this world.. it's simply a matter of time.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

AMEN Warrior,

The scriptures declare absolute truth with respect to the events which are described.. and as severe as they are.. they are also pictures and types (although literal as well) of the judgment which is coming upon this world.

Hi. Perhaps too much focus is also made concerning "endtimes".

For example, because of my view/translation of Revelation and Isaiah, I can read it as fulfilled for "me".
Translations could also be "better".

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Reve 21:21 And the twelve gates, twelve pearls repsectively, one each of the Gates/pulwnwn <4440> was out of one pearl, and the broad-place/plateia <4113> of the City, gold, clear as glass, translucent. [Daniel 9:25?]

Matt 7:13 "Into-come thru the distressed Gate/pulhV <4439>. That broad/plateia <4116> the Gate, and spacious the WAY the one leading-away into the Lost/ap-wleian <684> , and many are the ones into-coming thru her.
14 That distressed the Gate and having been narrowed the WAY the one leading-away into the Life and few are the ones finding her

R3quiem · Sep 15, 2007

Thanks for your posts everyone.

1. A couple of people have pointed out that the OT is absolute truth. What makes you believe such, how can you tell if it is true or not?

2. Some people have pointed out that the world is so full of evil. My original question dealt with the OT being evil.

If say, you were reading the OT objectively, and that all of this was done by some other supposed God, would you not find it to be very evil? With so much killing, even of woman, children, and animals, it seems to me to be the most evil set of religious scriptures there is.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
Thanks for your posts everyone.

1. A couple of people have pointed out that the OT is absolute truth. What makes you believe such, how can you tell if it is true or not?

2. Some people have pointed out that the world is so full of evil. My original question dealt with the OT being evil.

If say, you were reading the OT objectively, and that all of this was done by some other supposed God, would you not find it to be very evil? With so much killing, even of woman, children, and animals, it seems to me to be the most evil set of religious scriptures there is.

Hi. That is what the atheist bring up the most.

Perhaps you can inquire to the Jews about it, after all it is "their" Hebrew Scriptures though they appear to take the OT way to "literally" in my view.

It does appear to be a different YHWH or Elohiym that came to Moses than the Jesus YHWH sent to the OC Israelites.
Essentially, I read the Bible as being "not of this world" but that is also hard to explain LOL>

The story of the "Blind Man" is interesting and almost appears to relate to the event with Elisha.

http://foru.ms/t3119306&page=5
I am BLIND, I can't SEE!!!! [General Apologetics]

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2 kings 6:17: "And 'Eliysha` prayeth, and saith, YHWH, OPEN, I pray Thee, HIS EYES, and he doth see;' and YHWH openeth the eyes of the young man, and he seeth, and lo, the hill is full of horses and chariots of fire, round about 'Eliysha`.

Mark 8:22 And they are coming into Bethsaida, and they are bringing to Him a blind-one, and they are entreating Him that of him He should be touching,
23 And getting hold of the hand of the Blind-one, He brings forth him out of the village. And spitting into the eyes/ommata <3659> of him, on placing the hands to him, He inquired of him 'What are you observing'?
24 And up-looking/anableyaV <308> he said 'I am beholding/blepw <991> the men, that as trees walking I am seeing/orw <3708>'.
25 Thereafter again, He places the hands upon the eyes/ofqalmouV <3788> of him, and up-looks/anableyai <308>
and he is restored and he beheld/enebleyen <1689> at all clearly

Markea · Sep 15, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi. Perhaps too much focus is also made concerning "endtimes".

For example, because of my view/translation of Revelation and Isaiah, I can read it as fulfilled for "me".
Translations could also be "better".

Read 2 Thess and decide for yourself that the Lord has already come in flaming fire.. taking vengeance upon those who obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ.. the same coming which is described in Revelation 19, after the marriage of the Lamb which takes place in heaven..

It's obvious that the marriage of the Lamb has not yet taken place.. as the Lord is still building His church, calling people out of this present evil world.. (Gal 1).. and it's also obvious that the Lord has not yet come in vengeance upon those that reject the love of the truth that they might be saved..

It's also a biblical fact that this world is judged.. and that everyone who does not believe on Christ is condemned already.. (John 3:18)

Although the LORD is truly LONGSUFFERING.. not willing that any should perish.. and that all would come to repentance.. but He doesn't force His love or His grace upon anybody..

Right now, satan is the god of this world and he continues to blind the minds of those who believe not the glorious gospel of Christ.. and satan will be ultimately manifest in the man of sin.. the son of perdition.. who exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped.. this is the same BEAST of Revelation.. who will FORCE all to worship him or be killed..

To suggest that these things are fulfilled is pretty strange to me.. but it happens..

The REVELATION provides us its own timing.. ie, in Rev 1:19 John is told to write concerning the things which he has seen (past), the things which are (present), and the things which shall be hereafter (future).. This is the miracle of the word of God..

The things which are pertain to this age.. ie, the church age, and they are described in chapters 2-3.. The things which shall be hereafter pertain to what follows this church age.. and these are described in Rev 4 and beyond.

The Revelation is a prophetic book.. as many other books in the bible are.. ie, the DAY OF THE LORD is even spoken of in the OT, and that has not yet come to pass.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

The Revelation is a prophetic book.. as many other books in the bible are.. ie, the DAY OF THE LORD is even spoken of in the OT, and that has not yet come to pass.

Hi. Well that can be discussed on the "Eschatology Guru Board".
I prefer to harmonize the OC with the NC. As I said before, I read the Bible as fulfilled for "me" as I am In Jesus and He in me.
Anyway, "endtimes" won't help explain the concern the poster has with the "genocides" in the Hebrew OC Scriptures. Peace.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 7:13 "Into-come thru the distressed Gate/pulhV <4439>. That broad/plateia <4116> the Gate, and spacious the WAY the one leading-away into the Lost/ap-wleian <684> , and many are the ones into-coming thru her.
14 That distressed the gate and having been narrowed the WAY the one leading-away into the Life and few are the ones finding her

Reve 21:21 And the twelve gates, twelve pearls repsectively, one each of the Gates/pulwnwn <4440> was out of one pearl, and the broad-place/plateia <4113> of the City, gold, clear as glass, translucent.

Markea · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
Thanks for your posts everyone.

1. A couple of people have pointed out that the OT is absolute truth. What makes you believe such, how can you tell if it is true or not?

One of the most important aspects of the OT is that it all points to Christ.. consider what the LORD says here to a couple of men that walked with Him after His resurrection.. even though they were unaware that it was Him..

[bible]Luke 24:25-27[/bible]

Things concerning Himself.. that's the key.. the bible is God's own testimony concerning Himself..

He said this to His own disciples shortly after He met with the men on the road to Emmaus..

[bible]Luke 24:44-47[/bible]

NOW.. you seem to be focusing on events which speak of JUDGMENT that was pronounced BY GOD upon the enemies of Israel.. no doubt that these things are extremely SEVERE in their descriptions.. although we're talking about people who continuously REJECT the love of the truth that they might be saved.. and it all started as far back as CAIN and ABEL.. one who presented God with an acceptable offering, and one who did not..

It's no different today.. some people will come to Christ on HIS basis, and yet others feel that they can come to Him upon their own basis.. as if they're good enough to merit fellowship with Him after they have plunged themselves into SIN..

God is pure and HE is HOLY.. He is not going to allow the corruption of this world nor its influence to corrupt Himself.. He came to His own and revealed the LOVE and GRACE of God and yet men in their wickedness slaughtered Him and crucified Him while mocking Him as their Creator..

That's the heart of man.. right there displayed in God's own Son being nailed to a cross and mocked by the very creation which He afforded to exist.. The cross also reveals that LOVE and the GRACE of God in that even while man was in this state... dead and lost in trespasses and in sin.. that GOD would forgive it all and take the full judgment for ALL of it upon Himself.. WILLINGLY.. so that we could be justified and forgiven..

God did EVERYTHING that He possibly could in reconciling man back to Himself.. but LOVE forces NOBODY to come to Him.. those that receive Him today come to Him and lay their own lives at His feet.. WILLINGLY.. because they receive that LOVE and GRACE and accept the truth that we're lost and desparately wicked apart from Him.. our own Creator..

You need to see this for yourself. IT's perhaps the grand theme of all scripture.. the desparately wicked heart of man and the love of God as shown in Jesus Christ our Lord.

R3quiem · Sep 15, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi. That is what the atheist bring up the most.

Perhaps you can inquire to the Jews about it, after all it is "their" Hebrew Scriptures though they appear to take the OT way to "literally" in my view.

It does appear to be a different YHWH or Elohiym that came to Moses than the Jesus YHWH sent to the OC Israelites.
Essentially, I read the Bible as being "not of this world" but that is also hard to explain LOL>

I have had some discussions with Jews. However, the OT is not just for the Jews, many Christians put a lot of emphasis on it as being true, because Jesus himself used those scriptures a great deal.

I agree that the YHWH who came to Moses seems very different than the Jesus YHWH.

The story of the "Blind Man" is interesting and almost appears to relate to the event with Elisha.

http://foru.ms/t3119306&page=5
I am BLIND, I can't SEE!!!! [General Apologetics]

http://www.scripture4all.org/

2 kings 6:17: "And 'Eliysha` prayeth, and saith, YHWH, OPEN, I pray Thee, HIS EYES, and he doth see;' and YHWH openeth the eyes of the young man, and he seeth, and lo, the hill is full of horses and chariots of fire, round about 'Eliysha`.

Mark 8:22 And they are coming into Bethsaida, and they are bringing to Him a blind-one, and they are entreating Him that of him He should be touching,
23 And getting hold of the hand of the Blind-one, He brings forth him out of the village. And spitting into the eyes/ommata <3659> of him, on placing the hands to him, He inquired of him 'What are you observing'?
24 And up-looking/anableyaV <308> he said 'I am beholding/blepw <991> the men, that as trees walking I am seeing/orw <3708>'.
25 Thereafter again, He places the hands upon the eyes/ofqalmouV <3788> of him, and up-looks/anableyai <308>
and he is restored and he beheld/enebleyen <1689> at all clearly

So are you saying the blindness is more of a spiritual blindness?

Also, as for Elisha, it's hard for me to take any of the prophets seriously, when they all seemed so violent.

2 Kings 2
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

He brought a curse down to violently kill 42 children for making fun of his baldness, and the LORD as happy to help.

How is this not directly opposite of ALL that Jesus preached?

Markea · Sep 15, 2007

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi. Well that can be discussed on the "Eschatology Guru Board".
I prefer to harmonize the OC with the NC. As I said before, I read the Bible as fulfilled for "me" as I am In Jesus and He in me.
Anyway, "endtimes" won't help explain the concern the poster has with the "genocides" in the Hebrew OC Scriptures. Peace.
.

Well again.. you're obviously free to believe that these things are all fulfilled..

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

R3quiem said:
I have had some discussions with Jews. However, the OT is not just for the Jews, many Christians put a lot of emphasis on it as being true, because Jesus himself used those scriptures a great deal.

I agree that the YHWH who came to Moses seems very different than the Jesus YHWH.

So are you saying the blindness is more of a spiritual blindness?

Also, as for Elisha, it's hard for me to take any of the prophets seriously, when they all seemed so violent.

2 Kings 2
23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. 25 And he went on to Mount Carmel and from there returned to Samaria.

He brought a curse down to violently kill 42 children for making fun of his baldness, and the LORD as happy to help.

How is this not directly opposite of ALL that Jesus preached?

Hi. Yepperz!
How about that even with 'Eliyah in 2 Kings?

http://foru.ms/t6053725-matthew-24-and-revelation-study.html

koyontai <2875> (5695) Used 3 times.

Matt 24:30 And then shall be being appearing the Sign of the Son of the Man in the heaven, and then shall-be-cutting-selves/koyontai <2875> (5695)--all [the] Tribes of the land; and they shall be seeing the Son of the Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven with power and glory, much.

1 King 18:27And he is coming at noontides and 'Eliyah is mocking them, and he is saying: "Call! in voice, loud, that 'Elohiym He that meditation and that erring to him and that way to him perhaps sleeping he and he shall awake.
28 And they are calling in voice, loud, and they are cutting themselves/01413 gadadas judgement/04941 mishpat of them in swords and in lances untill to pour out blood over them.

01413 gadad {gaw-dad'}
a primitive root [compare 01464]; TWOT - 313; v
AV - cut 5, gather together 1, assemble by troop 1, gather 1; 8

04941 mishpat {mish-pawt'}
from 08199; TWOT - 2443c; n m
AV - judgment 296, manner 38, right 18, cause 12, ordinance 11,

Stinker · Sep 15, 2007

their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

------------------------------------------------------

I must admit, it is not possible to harmonize babies being dashed against the rocks and pregnant women having their bellies ripped open (Hosea 13:16) with the teaching of the New Testament. They are 2 separate things with nothing in common (as far as I can see). Maybe the poster in this thread was correct when they said that a lot of the Old Testament was written under a completely different setting for a completely different reason.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 15, 2007

Stinker said:
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."

------------------------------------------------------

I must admit, it is not possible to harmonize babies being dashed against the rocks and pregnant women having their bellies ripped open (Hosea 13:16) with the teaching of the New Testament. They are 2 separate things with nothing in common (as far as I can see). Maybe the poster in this thread was correct when they said that a lot of the Old Testament was written under a completely different setting for a completely different reason.

Hi. Didn't Jesus proclaim something similar to the "daughters of jerusalem" going to the Cross along with the "Vengeance" on the judeans in Luke 21?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Luke 23:27 Followed yet to Him a-vast multitude of the people, and of-women/gunaikwn <1135> were. And grieved/ekoptonto <2875> and wailed/eqrhnoun <2354> of-Him.
28 Being-turned yet toward them, the Jesus said: "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be-lamenting upon Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! are coming days in which they shall be declaring 'Blessed be ones-barren and wombs be not generating and breasts which not give-suck.
30 Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the mountains: 'Be ye falling on us'!, and to the hills 'Cover-ye/kaluyate <2572> us'!
31 That if in the moist wood/xulw <3586>, the-this, they are doing, in the dry/xhrw <3584> what may be becoming?

Why do the OT and NT contradict so much?

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Xian, Biblicist, Fideist, Pneumatic, Antinomian

Deal with it.

I close my eyes and see you smile

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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